Where does Faith come from?

[MB]

Are you arguing that humans, by their nature, have ability?

It seems that the Apostle Paul answers your question.

Romans 9:19-23 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

You resist God's will then claim it's impossible. God gave us the Bible expecting us to believe all of it because you pick and choose what you want to believe.

Act_11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

If repentance has been granted to the Gentiles then it has to be the will of God that all Gentiles be saved.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God is not willing that any should perrish Then Gentiles must have a means of Salvation.
.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

There it is Gentiles can hear the gospel. God is not willing that any perrish and repentance to life has been granted to receive Salvation all we have to do is repent and believe.
MB

 

[Particular]

You resist God's will then claim it's impossible.

What a silly comment. Can anyone thwart the will of God, even in resistance? That very resistance is ordained by God.

God gave us the Bible expecting us to believe all of it because you pick and choose what you want to believe.

What about the billions of people who do not have a Bible. How can they reject what they have never heard?
As for myself, I believe all of it. I just reject your universalist interpretation of passages that are written to Christians.

Act_11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

If repentance has been granted to the Gentiles then it has to be the will of God that all Gentiles be saved.

Note that God chose to open the heart of Gentiles so they would repent. This points out God's Sovereign decree and ordinance.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God is not willing that any should perrish Then Gentiles must have a means of Salvation.

We have gone over this passage you utterly abuse and misuse to promote your false construct. Like a skipping record your needle just keeps repeating poor interpretation.
If God willed that no one would perish...no one would perish. What you are actually advocating (and you don't recognize it) is that unless God chose to save Gentiles...they would never be saved. (Total inability)

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

There it is Gentiles can hear the gospel. God is not willing that any perrish and repentance to life has been granted to receive Salvation all we have to do is repent and believe.
MB.

Of course, Gentiles and Jews who are chosen by God will repent...because God has ordained their repentance.

If, as you are teaching, God does not will anyone perish...what would be the outcome of his will? The outcome would be that ALL would not perish and ALL would repent. ALL would be saved.

Do you not see, are you so blind to what you are claiming? You are preaching Jesus as weak and incompetent. It amazes me that you cannot see how far off the mark you are in your theology.
Moreso, you are preaching the great power of human will to utterly thwart God's will. It is shocking to me that you so adamantly fight for such a wicked theology.

 

[Yeshua1]

What a silly comment. Can anyone thwart the will of God, even in resistance? That very resistance is ordained by God.


What about the billions of people who do not have a Bible. How can they reject what they have never heard?
As for myself, I believe all of it. I just reject your universalist interpretation of passages that are written to Christians.


Note that God chose to open the heart of Gentiles so they would repent. This points out God's Sovereign decree and ordinance.

We have gone over this passage you utterly abuse and misuse to promote your false construct. Like a skipping record your needle just keeps repeating poor interpretation.
If God willed that no one would perish...no one would perish. What you are actually advocating (and you don't recognize it) is that unless God chose to save Gentiles...they would never be saved. (Total inability)


Of course, Gentiles and Jews who are chosen by God will repent...because God has ordained their repentance.

If, as you are teaching, God does not will anyone perish...what would be the outcome of his will? The outcome would be that ALL would not perish and ALL would repent. ALL would be saved.

Do you not see, are you so blind to what you are claiming? You are preaching Jesus as weak and incompetent. It amazes me that you cannot see how far off the mark you are in your theology.
Moreso, you are preaching the great power of human will to utterly thwart God's will. It is shocking to me that you so adamantly fight for such a wicked theology.

Lost sinners continually resist God as in rejecting t Save them, but not one sinner God chose to save in Christ rejected that call!

 

[Scott Downey]

Lost sinners continually resist God as in rejecting t Save them, but not one sinner God chose to save in Christ rejected that call!

This is because the carnal mind is at enmity with God, and God has no intention of saving any of them if they go their graves unbelieving, who knows if God will grant them repentance?

We dont know who is elect before they are convicted of their sins by the Spirit and you can only be granted to come to Christ in this life to have everlasting life. God has promised eternal life to those that He calls to inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[ivdavid]

No. Sinful man already has a "spirit of stupor" by the very fact he is still in his sins. He is already hardened. Romans 11:8 was not God giving sinners something new. It was a statement of the judicial hardening they already had. Earlier in Romans 9:18, Paul writes, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

We must distinguish between man being dead in his sins and God's hardening of man's heart - they are not the same, though one leads to the other. I too believe man is totally unable in the flesh to understand or do any of the things of God, but God's hardening of heart is a specific act He does when He judges people to have filled up their measure of iniquity and not before.

Rom 11:8 is God doing something now that He hadn't done before to the Israelites - God is actively blinding them and concluding them in unbelief now so that through their stumbling now (not already fallen before) these branches can be cut off (not already cut off) and the gentiles can be grafted in through the Gospel. This is an intentional act of God's as part of His mysterious purpose that is being carried out at the fullness of time, and not before.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

And these are visited upon this generation specifically, them having been judged of having filled up the measure of iniquity as a nation - thereby marking the fullness of time for Christ to come as their stumblingblock and rock of offense that the Gospel might go out to all the world.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
And God didn't deal with them this way prior to this as seen in Matt 23:37.

The same pattern is seen in God's hardening and destroying of the canaanites. The hardening is a specific intentional act of God's to bring about their sentence of destruction that they might have no favor - it's not simply restating their default state.
Jos 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

And why did God have to wait over 400 years to destroy these people if they were already hardened for destruction from before?
Gen 15:16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

 

[Particular]

We must distinguish between man being dead in his sins and God's hardening of man's heart - they are not the same, though one leads to the other. I too believe man is totally unable in the flesh to understand or do any of the things of God, but God's hardening of heart is a specific act He does when He judges people to have filled up their measure of iniquity and not before.

Rom 11:8 is God doing something now that He hadn't done before to the Israelites - God is actively blinding them and concluding them in unbelief now so that through their stumbling now (not already fallen before) these branches can be cut off (not already cut off) and the gentiles can be grafted in through the Gospel. This is an intentional act of God's as part of His mysterious purpose that is being carried out at the fullness of time, and not before.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

And these are visited upon this generation specifically, them having been judged of having filled up the measure of iniquity as a nation - thereby marking the fullness of time for Christ to come as their stumblingblock and rock of offense that the Gospel might go out to all the world.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
And God didn't deal with them this way prior to this as seen in Matt 23:37.

The same pattern is seen in God's hardening and destroying of the canaanites. The hardening is a specific intentional act of God's to bring about their sentence of destruction that they might have no favor - it's not simply restating their default state.
Jos 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

And why did God have to wait over 400 years to destroy these people if they were already hardened for destruction from before?
Gen 15:16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

Every person has a "measure of iniquity" meter and when it shows "full" God hardens their heart?

I'm sorry...how is that biblically supported?

 

[37818]

Faith/belief comes from hearing what one understands is truth.

 

[ivdavid]

Every person has a "measure of iniquity" meter and when it shows "full" God hardens their heart?

I'm sorry...how is that biblically supported?

I quoted the verses in my post right?
Matt 23:32 is the filled up measure resulting in Matt 23:36 judgement through hardening against the Gospel of Christ, just as Gen 15:16 had to be filled to result in Joshua 11:20 destruction through hardening against seeking peace unlike the hivites.

 

[Particular]

I quoted the verses in my post right?
Matt 23:32 is the filled up measure resulting in Matt 23:36 judgement through hardening against the Gospel of Christ, just as Gen 15:16 had to be filled to result in Joshua 11:20 destruction through hardening against seeking peace unlike the hivites.

So...there is no "measure of iniquity" meter that gets filled up and then God hardens.
None of your verses make any such claim. You are projecting a philosophy upon the text and calling it proof.

 

[Yeshua1]

George, where do we find the term or idea "the church age" in scripture? I see covenants throughout scripture, but no mention of a "church age." It is one of the reasons why I have left dispensationalism. It is a false, human, construct.

The Church Age would be the same as the time of the New Covenant era....

 

[Particular]

The Church Age would be the same as the time of the New Covenant era....

The church age started at the fall.
God's work of grace began with God's promise to Adam and Eve.
Dispensationalism is a false construct that disrupts the overarching flow of God's gracious work from the beginning.
God acts in covenant, not in dispensations.

 

[Yeshua1]

The church age started at the fall.
God's work of grace began with God's promise to Adam and Eve.
Dispensationalism is a false construct that disrupts the overarching flow of God's gracious work from the beginning.
God acts in covenant, not in dispensations.

I am a 1689 Federalist, so would tend to see even in Covenant theology the Church proper started in Acts!

 

[ivdavid]

None of your verses make any such claim.

Not central to the topic of this thread...start a new thread if you want to continue discussion. Why was God waiting for the iniquity of the Amorites to be filled/completed in Gen 15:16 - is the question to be answered regarding God's ways in bringing about judgement through hardening.

 

[Particular]

Not central to the topic of this thread...start a new thread if you want to continue discussion. Why was God waiting for the iniquity of the Amorites to be filled/completed in Gen 15:16 - is the question to be answered regarding God's ways in bringing about judgement through hardening.

You brought it up. You made a false claim and attempted to connect it to the reason why people don't have faith.
God ordained the iniquity of the Amorites for a season and when his ordained season for them was done, he removed them. (This should be a warning flag for the USA.)
God may create people who are vessels of his wrath (Romans 9). Can you accept that reality?

 

[Scott Downey]

The tares grow alongside the wheat in God's field the world.
They are allowed to continue for a while, as they fill up the measure of their sins to show the proof of how evil they are, add sin to sin and then are set forth as an example of God's justice for what happens to them, as opposed to those who are planted by the Lord.
'Every plant which my Heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.'
Matthew 23:32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Sinners who are slaves of sin will not be allowed to continue to abide in God's field forever.

 

[ivdavid]

God ordained the iniquity of the Amorites for a season and when his ordained season for them was done, he removed them.

I'd say the same thing except that I directly interpret the end of the season to be the Amorites' iniquity being completed. In fact, you're the one adding in new concepts and terms such as "God's season" into Gen 15:16 - when it clearly refers to the "Amorites' iniquity" that is waiting to be completed. Where is your biblical support for your claim when the verse makes no mention of it? And for you to deny mine when the verse directly phrases it as is?

 

[percho]

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Now, faith =s equals

Is that always what faith equals? Substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen?

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, Gal 3:23,25

? before the coming of the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen
by, substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen, declared righteous
and the, substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen, having come

Also remember this verse which should also be relative.

for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. Rom 5:19

IMHO the question, where does faith come from, Is wrong. the question should be, what is and when did, the faith, come.

Something else interesting, The obedience of Rom 5:19 according to Westcott and Hort has the understanding of: of the one, of a hearing under. Now compare that to Romans 10:17 without the added word, comes. --- Consequently the faith out of hearing, the yet hearing, through the word of God.

IMHO Faith is all about a promise of God, who can not lie, made before the world began, relative to one to be born of woman, sinless unto obedience unto, the death and redemption from death.

Faithfulness of the word of God.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 13
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’

The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

This and the parable explained also show that those who are taken away first are taken to destruction, the 'rapture' does not occur before the Lord returns, there are not 2 second comings, when every eye shall see Him.
The wicked are gathered first.

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Where are they taken? The ones taken are to be eaten, consumed at the great supper of God. Birds of prey are vultures and eagles, they kill and eat.
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles (vultures)will be gathered together.”

His returning will be like the time of Noah, when the flood came and took them all away, so there is no pre tribulation rapture. So then we who remain until the coming of the Lord, His people remain, while the wicked are taken away.

As does Malachi 4 tell us the wicked shall be ashes under our feet on the coming Day of the Lord and we inherit the kingdom
Malachi 4 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great Day of God
1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

 

[Particular]

I'd say the same thing except that I directly interpret the end of the season to be the Amorites' iniquity being completed. In fact, you're the one adding in new concepts and terms such as "God's season" into Gen 15:16 - when it clearly refers to the "Amorites' iniquity" that is waiting to be completed. Where is your biblical support for your claim when the verse makes no mention of it? And for you to deny mine when the verse directly phrases it as is?

See Habbakuk 1 regarding Babylon. God raises up wicked nation's and tears them down.

 

[ivdavid]

See Habbakuk 1 regarding Babylon. God raises up wicked nation's and tears them down.

Who ever denied this? God used wicked Pharaoh to show forth His power and used wicked Amorites for the same in the conquests of Israel - how does this relate with Gen 15:16 that states God's destroying the Amorites was contingent upon their iniquity being completed? All are born in sin - the Amorites too were born in sin, God had just cause to destroy them even in Abraham's time. Why wait for their iniquity to be completed? Why wait to harden Israel until that particular generation filled up the measure of their fathers? Do you find it difficult to accept the longsuffering compassion of our God even towards the wicked?