Where is satans Kingdom and is it Still in force?

[Darrell C]

The honest answer is I don't know, I just started looking into the camp. I will have to look at it and from sources that are not premillennial. Once my husband gets a new job I plan on getting some new resources.

And by the way...I will pray for your husband.

God bless.

 

[revmwc]

In the KJV it resembles a Book with seven seals. In some other versions it resembles a Scroll with seven seals. Now show me where in the 5th chapter of Revelation the Book or Scroll is called the Book/Scroll "of the redemption of the Earth." In fact show me from any where in Scripture where this Book/Scroll is called the Book/Scroll "of the redemption of the Earth."

Revelation 5:1-14
1. And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3. And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12. Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Of course Revelation being written as you say in Apocalyptic literature we can see it as the book of redemption for land. That is how the people of that time would have understood it and knew it was a book of Redemption. That is how we are to take the Apocalyptic genre that it was written. So it is clearly shown right here in this verse in Apocalyptic Genre.

 

[blessedwife318]

Wait...what does being Covenantal have to do with your position on Eschatology?

I consider myself very much Covenantal insofar as a Biblical understanding of the Covenants and the differences between them.

Is their a denominational name attached to where he fellowships? Or where he might if he doesn't attend somewhere, or has been going with you?

Well as far as I can tell most Covenant Theologians are Amill in their eschatology. My husband really has not studied eschatology so he does not take a hard stance, but he is very much against Dispensationalism (Which made for quite the discussion when he discovered that I was dispensational since we were already engaged), so I decided since we were getting married I should look into his view as I think its important to be as close to the same page as much as possible.

Outstanding.

That's how we learn.

Thanks I'm always striving to learn

On the contrary, all I have done is ask questions where your doctrine was ambiguous, and addressed conflicts in your statements.

Thats because I have been in transition and you were just pointing out more and more areas I needed to transition too

Your claim to be pre-millennial was rather hollow in light of your posting.

Think what you will, but I did consider myself premillennial up until today.

Since I have no idea why being Covenantal would preclude a premillennial view, all I will say is that it is good for a husband and wife to be in agreement.

Agreed

If we have learned anything from Church History it is that man is not trustworthy and that Scripture alone holds the authority to determine doctrine.

Agreed which is why scripture must inform our framework not the other way around

Who are you trying to convince? lol

Think what you will

Look forward to you supporting an a-mil view.

I'm looking forward to more study of it, of course I love learning and studying

You know of course this just means more questions, right?

Yup I was blaring Into The Fire from The Scarlet Pimpernel since as I told my husband I'm jumping into the fire feet first.

But not to worry, I am almost at the point where I need to move on, so you will have plenty of time to perfect your doctrine. I won't expect miracles in a few days. I mean, if it took twenty years to talk yourself out of a pre-millennial view, I shouldn't expect you to change your pattern should I?

True, most people don't change their MOs.

God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

And by the way...I will pray for your husband.

God bless.

Thank you. He has been looking since the end of Feb. Although we actually had a nibble today so hopefully that will turn into something.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Wait...what does being Covenantal have to do with your position on Eschatology?

I consider myself very much Covenantal insofar as a Biblical understanding of the Covenants and the differences between them.

Is their a denominational name attached to where he fellowships? Or where he might if he doesn't attend somewhere, or has been going with you?

Well as far as I can tell most Covenant Theologians are Amill in their eschatology.

That is like saying most Baptists are a-millennial in their eschatology.

Not this Baptist, lol.

My husband really has not studied eschatology so he does not take a hard stance, but he is very much against Dispensationalism

And this is a false argument: dispensationalism is not exclusive to eschatology.

I am accused of be dispensationalist but my views range over a number of characterizations. I have been called just about everything under the sun because of an assumed relationship with a system.

And as far as God dealing with man through various Covenants...that cannot be denied.

So the Dispensational view is actually more Covenantal than Covenant Theology.

And one thing to keep in mind is the motivation for the creation of a number of Reformed views: hatred.

The Historical view is the result of the hatred of Catholicism. Ironically you would be hard pressed to see the difference between the two today.

(Which made for quite the discussion when he discovered that I was dispensational since we were already engaged),

Not exactly what I would call unequally yoked, but still better for a man and wife to study together and allow God to work in their hearts. It is good to be united in doctrinal views. I have seen some pretty bad results in marriages where there is division on what is really more important than you might think.

so I decided since we were getting married I should look into his view as I think its important to be as close to the same page as much as possible.

So this may be a source of the uncertainty that comes across in your posting.

Outstanding.

That's how we learn.

Thanks I'm always striving to learn

Then it's time to hit the Books.

You don't research religions, you research Scripture. That is the only way you are going to abstain from being indoctrinated.

And that is precisely what is going to happen.

On the contrary, all I have done is ask questions where your doctrine was ambiguous, and addressed conflicts in your statements.

Thats because I have been in transition and you were just pointing out more and more areas I needed to transition too

Not hardly. I was pointing out simple questions which demand a logical and honest response.

The thousand years cannot be denied by Historicists, and there is absolutely no way that the Rapture can occur after the Tribulation begins.

Much of Prophecy affirms the fact that God has promised, and will deliver Israel, and establish the Kingdom promised in Old Testament Prophecy. And that Kingdom is expressly spoken of in Revelation 20.

The entire Church will be raptured at one time. Those who populate that Kingdom will be physical, not glorified. We have to dismiss that Kingdom, and the reign of the Tribulation Martyrs with Christ with a specific number of years given.

Your claim to be pre-millennial was rather hollow in light of your posting.

Think what you will, but I did consider myself premillennial up until today.

I don't think so.

You can't reconcile "I am pre-millennial but I am not post or pre trib."

Christ returns before the Millennial Kingdom in the premillennial view, and unless we say that there is no Rapture until the Great White Throne, which cannot be because we already have the Tribulations Martyrs glorified (which would nullify Paul's teaching altogether), then we have to designate a time where we at least suspect the Rapture will take place.

Since I have no idea why being Covenantal would preclude a premillennial view, all I will say is that it is good for a husband and wife to be in agreement.

Agreed

That is your real priority, though no reason not to study along the way.

If we have learned anything from Church History it is that man is not trustworthy and that Scripture alone holds the authority to determine doctrine.

Agreed which is why scripture must inform our framework not the other way around

And is that what you see in defense of the Historical view?

Or do you see a repeated appeal to...Church Fathers?

Who are you trying to convince? lol

Think what you will

You should know by now...I do.



And what I think is that your letting your emotions over-ride your common sense.

If you have studied for twenty years there are just going to be some things that make it impossible for you to embrace a Historical view.

And that leaves intentional indoctrination, and if I have discerned anything about you I don't think that is something you're actually going to do.

Look forward to you supporting an a-mil view.

I'm looking forward to more study of it, of course I love learning and studying

The Bible. Strong's Online Concordance. The Holy Spirit.

All you need to understand the Word of God.

While beginners can benefit from teachers by this time you should be able to competently study and allow God to open His Word to you.

You know of course this just means more questions, right?

Yup I was blaring Into The Fire from The Scarlet Pimpernel since as I told my husband I'm jumping into the fire feet first.

I have no clue as to what that might be.

If it's music, throw on some Casting Crowns. "I am Yours" might be a good choice.

Then turn it off and hit the Books.

After you fix dinner for your husband, of course.

But not to worry, I am almost at the point where I need to move on, so you will have plenty of time to perfect your doctrine. I won't expect miracles in a few days. I mean, if it took twenty years to talk yourself out of a pre-millennial view, I shouldn't expect you to change your pattern should I?

True, most people don't change their MOs.

Not true. Everybody goes through multiple changes as they grow. Most of begin woefully ignorant and worse: full of misconceptions we taught ourselves before we were born again.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Thank you. He has been looking since the end of Feb. Although we actually had a nibble today so hopefully that will turn into something.

Praying.

God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

Is their a denominational name attached to where he fellowships? Or where he might if he doesn't attend somewhere, or has been going with you?

I realized I had forgotten to answer this question, even though I thought about it, and I don't want to be accused of ignoring questions
We go to a SBC church. When we were engaged we lived in two different states so that made going to the same church impossible. But since getting married I moved to his state and have been going to his church which like I said is Southern Baptist. Although it is definitely Reformed and makes no apologies for that fact

 

[blessedwife318]

That is like saying most Baptists are a-millennial in their eschatology.

Not this Baptist, lol.





And this is a false argument: dispensationalism is not exclusive to eschatology.

I know but he has had a bad experience with hyper-dispensationalist so he is very much against them. When he found out I was one he had this moment of panic and asking himself how he could have missed that one. He spend the first part of our correspondence just asking me doctrine questions to make sure we were on the same page.

I am accused of be dispensationalist but my views range over a number of characterizations. I have been called just about everything under the sun because of an assumed relationship with a system.

And as far as God dealing with man through various Covenants...that cannot be denied.

So the Dispensational view is actually more Covenantal than Covenant Theology.

Maybe, I'm still getting familiar with Covenant Theology since all I heard about it in Bible College was that it was heretical.

And one thing to keep in mind is the motivation for the creation of a number of Reformed views: hatred.

I have actually considered myself Reformed for about 6 years now and I guess that means I have just been getting everything in line with that. Get the Soteriology right and then see how that ripples across all of the other parts of Theology.

The Historical view is the result of the hatred of Catholicism. Ironically you would be hard pressed to see the difference between the two today.

Well I think all Protestant churches regardless of their view on Calvinism came out of the Reformation so not sure what this means. And yes I do consider Baptist to be a Protestant denomination.

Not exactly what I would call unequally yoked, but still better for a man and wife to study together and allow God to work in their hearts. It is good to be united in doctrinal views. I have seen some pretty bad results in marriages where there is division on what is really more important than you might think.

So have I, which is why we spend so much time making sure we were on the same page. And of course the more we study together the more we are getting onto the same page on a lot of issues.

Then it's time to hit the Books

.
Have to get the books first But I have made a list of "Kingdom" passages to review and compare with Rev. 20-22

You don't research religions, you research Scripture. That is the only way you are going to abstain from being indoctrinated.

Something we can both agree on.

You can't reconcile "I am pre-millennial but I am not post or pre trib."

Well there is Mid-trib, or the even lesser known pre-wrath

And what I think is that your letting your emotions over-ride your common sense.

If you have studied for twenty years there are just going to be some things that make it impossible for you to embrace a Historical view.

We will see. I will say this that being a history major, actually gave me a lot of pause to the idea of most dispensational ideas.

The Bible. Strong's Online Concordance. The Holy Spirit.

All you need to understand the Word of God.

Agreed

While beginners can benefit from teachers by this time you should be able to competently study and allow God to open His Word to you.

Agreed

Then turn it off and hit the Books.

After you fix dinner for your husband, of course.

To early for dinner

Not true. Everybody goes through multiple changes as they grow. Most of begin woefully ignorant and worse: full of misconceptions we taught ourselves before we were born again.

Agreed

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Actually, as I have stated before and as Scripture teaches, the power of Satan has been limited since the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 12:24-29
24. But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26. And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

It is not limited for those who ignore the teaching of Scripture:

I believe you have stated it about as well as could be stated. You said it so well I think it is worth repeating with emphasis added:

It is not limited for those who ignore the teaching of Scripture:

 

[OldRegular]

He has influence on the world system, that is not the same as having ownership/dominion/mortgage/ etc. over the earth. As Jesus said to Pilate:

"Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
John 18:36

Neither is Satan's "kingdom" and physically earthly kingdom. We do not fight against flesh and blood.

Well said!

Ephesians 6:11-17
11. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15. And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16. Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

 

[Darrell C]

I realized I had forgotten to answer this question, even though I thought about it, and I don't want to be accused of ignoring questions
We go to a SBC church. When we were engaged we lived in two different states so that made going to the same church impossible. But since getting married I moved to his state and have been going to his church which like I said is Southern Baptist. Although it is definitely Reformed and makes no apologies for that fact

The SBC Churches I have been associated with are all Pre-Trib premillennials.

Is yours?

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I know but he has had a bad experience with hyper-dispensationalist so he is very much against them. When he found out I was one he had this moment of panic and asking himself how he could have missed that one. He spend the first part of our correspondence just asking me doctrine questions to make sure we were on the same page.



Maybe, I'm still getting familiar with Covenant Theology since all I heard about it in Bible College was that it was heretical.



I have actually considered myself Reformed for about 6 years now and I guess that means I have just been getting everything in line with that. Get the Soteriology right and then see how that ripples across all of the other parts of Theology.


Well I think all Protestant churches regardless of their view on Calvinism came out of the Reformation so not sure what this means. And yes I do consider Baptist to be a Protestant denomination.




So have I, which is why we spend so much time making sure we were on the same page. And of course the more we study together the more we are getting onto the same page on a lot of issues.








.
Have to get the books first But I have made a list of "Kingdom" passages to review and compare with Rev. 20-22




Something we can both agree on.



Well there is Mid-trib, or the even lesser known pre-wrath




We will see. I will say this that being a history major, actually gave me a lot of pause to the idea of most dispensational ideas.







Agreed



Agreed




To early for dinner






Agreed

In regards to the Kingdom read the Gospels and see if you can find anything that nullifies the fact that the Gospel of Christ was a mystery before it was revealed by the Spirit of God after the Cross.

Go to Biblegateway and search "Mystery" and you'll have all the books you need for the Lord to show you something most miss.

You can utilize Strong's online Concordance as well.

I would just suggest that you get alone with God and His Word, in the Books of the Bible, not books about the Bible. The former will indoctrinate you into the Mind of Christ. The latter into the musings of men.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I believe you have stated it about as well as could be stated. You said it so well I think it is worth repeating with emphasis added:

Hey thanks! Not used to you giving compliments. Maybe there's hope for you after all.



Now, back to the question you keep ignoring:

So this...


Revelation 11:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

...has already been fulfilled?


Come on, OR, show us you can answer a simple question.

I know why you do not want to, but it will be good for you to do so.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Well said!

Ephesians 6:11-17
11. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15. And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16. Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

If we do not fight against flesh and blood...exactly what do we fight against?


God bless.

 

[blessedwife318]

The SBC Churches I have been associated with are all Pre-Trib premillennials.

Is yours?

God bless.

The pastor is A-mill

 

[OldRegular]

If we do not fight against flesh and blood...exactly what do we fight against?

I assumed you could read the big print. My mistake!

Well said!

Ephesians 6:11-17
11. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15. And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16. Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

 

[OldRegular]

Revelation 11:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

...has already been fulfilled?

It appears you answered your own question. So I guess we were all left behind!

 

[blessedwife318]

In regards to the Kingdom read the Gospels and see if you can find anything that nullifies the fact that the Gospel of Christ was a mystery before it was revealed by the Spirit of God after the Cross.

Go to Biblegateway and search "Mystery" and you'll have all the books you need for the Lord to show you something most miss.

You can utilize Strong's online Concordance as well.

I would just suggest that you get alone with God and His Word, in the Books of the Bible, not books about the Bible. The former will indoctrinate you into the Mind of Christ. The latter into the musings of men.


God bless.

Not trying to be offensive, but do you really think you are going to tell me something I have not heard before. If when i was deep in your camp I never saw a pre-trib rapture presented in Scripture, do you think I will find it now that I have officially left your camp after moving away from it for several years?

 

[DHK]

It appears you answered your own question. So I guess we were all left behind!

What was the scene just before this?
It was the two witnesses on earth prophesying for 1260 days or 42 months or 3 1/2 years. They did miracles. One of them is prophesied to be Elijah. Many others believe the other will be Moses, but we don't know for sure. They will be killed at the end of 3 1/2 years and their bodies will lie in the street for 3 1/2 days while the nations of the earth rejoice. Perhaps at a time when they will decide to bury them, then then God will give life to those bodies and they will suddenly ascend into heaven and "their enemies shall behold them."

Immediately after this event you posted the verse you have just referred to.
It has not happened yet. It is still in the future yet. It will happen during a seven year Tribulation which will occur right before the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[DHK]

I assumed you could read the big print. My mistake!

Big print is not needed to show that "we wrestle against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Eph.6:12)
But you cannot ignore what is said in the second chapter of the same book.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Here we are taught that:
Satan is the prince of the power of the air.
He is the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.

and here:
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--He is called the "god of this world."

Christ is not presently ruling over this world, but rather Satan is the god of this world.
Someone mentioned that Satan is not omnipresent. That is true.
The proper term is "ubiquitous."
It means that Satan, through his minions of demons, seems as if he is omnipresent, for his demons are everywhere.