Where is the IFB Sytematic Theology?

[Luke2427]

I can't believe I am reading this. You would attack IFBers (and no matter what you say, it is obvious to all but yourself that this is a blatant attack on IFB, simply because you didn't ask "Where is Landmarker's Systematic Theology?" you asked "Where is the IFB ...")

Wrong. I attack IFB philosophy- that philosophy that permeates a massive segment of IFB people.

I attack it with all my heart because I believe it is enmity against God.

I think you are sinning if you don't attack it.

on a single incident when IFB is trying to further the work of God.

Wrong.

SOME IFB are trying to further the work of God.

A LOT of IFB are furthering a philosophy and theology and ideology that is detrimental to the work of God and ought to be opposed by people who love God.

Yet, you would defend your members who are Masons, "because they have the right thinking."

It is very elementary thinking to assume that all Masons have bad thinking.

Intelligent people recognize that many Masons were raised in an area where Masons is just a club that helps the community and is not even aware of the weird mess that many Masons are involved in.

I've already answered this objection to the satisfaction of any thinking person.

Episcopalians are ordaining gays. THAT'S HORRIBLE. But many thousands who are still Episcopalian are against that. Many hundreds don't even know about it. These people love God and have the right thinking.

Only an idiot would think we should attack thinking they don't even HAVE.

Those who PROMOTE that weird thinking ought to be condemned vociferously. Those who don't even know about it do not need to be condemned.

It's not about what you call yourself. It's about how you ACTUALLY think and what thinking you ACTUALLY promote.

The same with the Masons.

I would think that someone who is in an evil movement "with the right thinking" would be a lot worse than someone who is in a movement that is trying to win the lost, yet a little misguided.

Win them to WHAT?? That's the question you need to ponder.

And "a little misguided" does not even scratch the surface as it pertains to the thinking of many of these churches.

Yes, you hate the IFB. It isn't what they believe,what they think, or ideologies. It is the IFB.

It is what they believe and you don't know what you are talking about, Sap.

You are not a psychic or the Mentalist. You don't know what I think. And you are not that discerning either, because it IS the IFB philosophy that I hate- I am indifferent to the people. I hate their philosophy.

You may not be able to tell the difference between the two. Some lack the ability to be able to tell the difference between the philosophy and the person- but it is what it is.

Yes, IFB put that out front to attract members. "Come to the church who was never part of the RCC." Happens all the time. :laugh:

No, they pound their chest like King Kong in their pulpits while they preach it trying to make themselves seem better than others.

Ignorant people often do this BECAUSE of their ignorance. If they had any real education they'd know better. Since they do not have any real education they are insecure and they need to say things and do things to compensate for their ignorance.

 

[Luke2427]

Bumping my question since Luke did not answer it. This is new doctrine. You should be loudly condemning it (according to your own view and multiple posts), yet you have been silent. I guess you only condemn the views of non cals.

I've never promoted anything that has anything to do with decibel level.

I don't know the context of this remark so I will not comment on it.

 

[DHK]

Wrong. I attack IFB philosophy- that philosophy that permeates a massive segment of IFB people.

I attack it with all my heart because I believe it is enmity against God.

I think you are sinning if you don't attack it.

This is where you are wrong. Because of your limited experience and listening to some other complaints on this board, you are attacking the minority of IFB people. I wish you would understand that.

 

[ashleysdad]

This is where you are wrong. Because of your limited experience and listening to some other complaints on this board, you are attacking the minority of IFB people. I wish you would understand that.

I think that part of the problem we are seeing on this thread is in the designation IFB itself. For me and for many others when I think of IFB I think of churchs where it is KJVO, women are not allowed to wear pants, no mixed "bathing" and junk like that. That is many peoples perception of IFB. I understand that IFB is a much larger grouping than that but unfortunately because of what you could call extreme IFB it is very difficult to seperate. I grew up in one of these extreme IFB churchs, went to one of their "Bible colleges", and have been involved with or associated with many of these churchs (no exaggeration probably close to 100+ when you factor in all the conferences, youth group meetings, and being part of a traveling singing group). I keep reading that these churchs are limited to the south but all my experiences were in the midwest (Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas mainly but also Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Washington state where some relatives attend churchs like this). Luke is absolutely right in calling these "churchs" out their preaching while maybe not heretical in the strictest sense is definitely wrong and unBiblical and in NO way furthers the Gospel. Again I understand that these churchs do not make up every single IFB church in America but to me they do because I have never seen one not like this. When you factor in what others on BB have related (thinking abcgrad, menageriekeeper, tinytim, luke, myself and others). When does it become acknowledged that it is NOT just a small regional problem but a rather significant issue of a fairly large number of "IFB" churchs that are preaching and teaching things that are not correct and boil down to simple man made opinions and not good ones at that. If it was just a wrong view of church history that in and of itself I have no real issue with (not saying it is not important but I personally have no issue with), but it is not just church history, it is the teaching that the KJV is the ONLY correct version all others are satanic (every single IFB church I have ever been in the pastor has worked that into the sermon somewhere). It is the preaching that if a woman wears pants she is not a good christian and possibly (probably) not saved (again all of the IFB I have attended have preached that). It is the whole litany of other non biblical things that somehow they attach to the bible and then make it a test of spirituality. Actually had a preacher tell me when I asked him to pray for my brother who was (is) battleing depression issues that my brother was obviously not saved or if he was he wasn't a good christian as no spiritual christian would have depression issues. My brother IS in fact saved and at the time was serving as a youth worker in his church (baptist). This is what Luke is calling out, this tripe that is somehow associated with the bible and used to beat people over the head with. I understand that the Bible is the Sword of the Spirit and that the HS uses the bible to penetrate into our souls to work repentance and conviction, but the Bible is NOT the club of the preacher to bludgeon people into submission. Are these things heresy? I would say so but I also understand that in the absolute strictest sense of the word they are not. They are however ungodly and unbiblical and need to be renounced and called out for the (imho) wickedness that they are. Again just to try to cover myself a little let me again stress that I fully understand that not all IFB are like this (I just have never met any that were not). What I wonder however is, do those of you that claim the name IFB understand that it is NOT just a few scattered churchs mainly in the south that are like this? Okay thus ends my rant you may now return to your regularly scheduled rant!

 

[DHK]

Ashleysdad,
I am a missionary. I have been for over 25 years and thus have done a lot of traveling. I have been from the west coast to the east coast in both nations (Canada and the U.S.), as far south as South Carolina and Georgia, and further north than you can imagine. The only churches I go to are IFB. There is a small segment that are KJVO, etc. The vast majority has good quality preaching with pastors that have graduated from quality seminaries. They use the Greek and Hebrew in their preaching which a KJVO would be reluctant to do. Many dress very conservatively, but not by mandate. I would say that because of you and Luke's localities your experience is a lot different. But I travel lots. And I don't find that the average IFB church is what you describe. We have five IFB churches in our area. One of them has made a switch to using the NKJ Bible. The others I would classify as KJV preferred. But none of them are KJVO. In three of them the teens wear jeans or at least pants a lot. In two of them they are encouraged but not mandated to wear dresses or skirts. If a person doesn't like the higher dress standards of one church they can always go to another and vice-versa. All of the churches are fairly conservative in their music. I could go on. But does it matter?

We have choices. What Luke and some others describe is definitely in the minority and comes primarily from one school of thought. It is wrong, if not sin, to brandish everyone else the same way.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Wrong. I attack IFB philosophy- that philosophy that permeates a massive segment of IFB people.

I attack it with all my heart because I believe it is enmity against God.

I think you are sinning if you don't attack it.

Believe what you will to fall asleep at night. You are attacking IFB. Otherwise (as I stated before) your question would have been directed towards landmarkism, not IFB.

SOME IFB are trying to further the work of God.

A LOT of IFB are furthering a philosophy and theology and ideology that is detrimental to the work of God and ought to be opposed by people who love God.

Just like SOME masons are thinking correctly. At the core they are founded on evil.

It is very elementary thinking to assume that all Masons have bad thinking.

Intelligent people recognize that many Masons were raised in an area where Masons is just a club that helps the community and is not even aware of the weird mess that many Masons are involved in.

It is very elementary thinking to assume that all IFB are what you think they are. Intelligent people recognize that IFB is just that: Independent. Each one is responsible for what it teaches. While some follow the teaching of others, it does not mean that all/many/a majority/anyone else follows the same teaching.

Win them to WHAT?? That's the question you need to ponder.

Well, I thought that I was pretty clear that they are trying to win them for Christ. But if you are so against IFB that you assumed something else, then I guess I am not surprised.

You are not a psychic or the Mentalist. You don't know what I think.

And yet you state:

But many thousands who are still Episcopalian are against that. Many hundreds don't even know about it. These people love God and have the right thinking.

Only an idiot would think we should attack thinking they don't even HAVE.

Am I too assume then, that you are a psychic or mentalist, since you know what thinking these people have?

And you are not that discerning either, because it IS the IFB philosophy that I hate

Then why are you attacking the IFB, and not Landmarkism?

No, they pound their chest like King Kong in their pulpits while they preach it trying to make themselves seem better than others.

If they are Landmarkists, yes. But not because they're IFB.

 

[Sapper Woody]

And I thought I'd add this remark for the record:

I have not studied the history enough to decide for myself whether or not I believe there was an unbroken line. I do know this though: it doesn't affect my salvation, or hamper my ability to influence others for Christ. To me, the issue of whether or not there is an unbroken line all the way back is about as important as the question "what color was Adam's skin?"

If you have to have a good, solid grasp on history to be effective for Christ, then I guess God was mistaken when he said (para) "My word shall not return void". The way i read that it says that as long you are giving out the word, you'll be rewarded. The only history that I need to have a solid grasp on is my own: I once was lost, but now am found; was blind, but now I see.

 

[Luke2427]

Believe what you will to fall asleep at night. You are attacking IFB. Otherwise (as I stated before) your question would have been directed towards landmarkism, not IFB.

Another mischaracterization based on grossly incomplete thinking.

IFB is the SEED BED today of this thinking.

And I DO attack landmarkism wherever I find it.

The fact that I assault IFB for their belief in it here does not negate that fact.

Just like SOME masons are thinking correctly. At the core they are founded on evil.

And???

It is very elementary thinking to assume that all IFB are what you think they are.

Agreed.

Now you'd have a point if I'd ever made that assumption.

But since I have said NUMEROUS times and from the very OP of THIS THREAD that not ALL IFB have this thinking- your remark here is pretty pointless.

Intelligent people recognize that IFB is just that: Independent. Each one is responsible for what it teaches. While some follow the teaching of others, it does not mean that all/many/a majority/anyone else follows the same teaching.

And those who do not hold to this thinking are not being confronted here.

But that MANY and I mean MANY IFB churches are seed beds for this vile thinking is undeniable.

Well, I thought that I was pretty clear that they are trying to win them for Christ. But if you are so against IFB that you assumed something else, then I guess I am not surprised.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, Sap.

You can't claim on one hand that IFB are independent and then pretend that all IFB, or most, or a majority, or MANY of them are winning people to Jesus.

If I can't say a large number of them are propagating this backwards thinking I condemn then ou can't say a majority of them are winning souls to Jesus.

And yet you state:
Am I too assume then, that you are a psychic or mentalist, since you know what thinking these people have?

You don't have to be a mentalist to hold people accountable for thinking THEY PUBLICIZE AND PROMOTE.

I have not said that I hate IFB people. I have said that I hate IFB thinking.

Therefore the only conclusion you should rightly be able to make from that is that I hate the thinking because that is what I said.

I can conclude that these people believe they have an unbroken line separate from the Historic Church all the way back to the Apostles- wait for it- IF THEY SAY THEY DO!

Then why are you attacking the IFB, and not Landmarkism?

I've explained this already. But just for the record, it is not JUST landmarkism that teaches this crud that you ought to be condemning rather than defending.

IFB that does not believe in Baptist Bride and all that mess ALSO believes this crud.

So let's not pretend that it is identical.

Furthermore, I am not aware of many Missionary Baptist people on BB. They may be here but I've not seen many of them. So it would be pure stupid to confront people who, by and large aren't here, wouldn't it?

But there are plenty of IFB people on here who ought to be confronted for this thinking.

So it would make sense that if I wish to confront a thinking that is vile I would confront the people who actually EXIST in the place where I wish to confront the thinking.

If they are Landmarkists, yes. But not because they're IFB.

Which is what I have said about a dozen times at this point.

 

[Luke2427]

I think that part of the problem we are seeing on this thread is in the designation IFB itself. For me and for many others when I think of IFB I think of churchs where it is KJVO, women are not allowed to wear pants, no mixed "bathing" and junk like that. That is many peoples perception of IFB.

Exactly. This is what MOST people think of when they think IFB.

Because SOME churches and camps are apparently NOT this way, those raised in those camps are oblivious to this fact.

But facts are facts.

MOST people on bb who have been exposed to IFB churches share this testimony.

It is my experience.

Some even call themselves "recovering Pharisees" referring to their coming out of IFB.

On this very thread are people who are IFB who ADMIT and ARGUE that they believe this pseudo-history business I think ought to be condemned.

I understand that IFB is a much larger grouping than that but unfortunately because of what you could call extreme IFB it is very difficult to seperate. I grew up in one of these extreme IFB churchs, went to one of their "Bible colleges", and have been involved with or associated with many of these churchs (no exaggeration probably close to 100+ when you factor in all the conferences, youth group meetings, and being part of a traveling singing group). I keep reading that these churchs are limited to the south but all my experiences were in the midwest (Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas mainly but also Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Washington state where some relatives attend churchs like this). Luke is absolutely right in calling these "churchs" out their preaching while maybe not heretical in the strictest sense is definitely wrong and unBiblical and in NO way furthers the Gospel. Again I understand that these churchs do not make up every single IFB church in America but to me they do because I have never seen one not like this. When you factor in what others on BB have related (thinking abcgrad, menageriekeeper, tinytim, luke, myself and others). When does it become acknowledged that it is NOT just a small regional problem but a rather significant issue of a fairly large number of "IFB" churchs that are preaching and teaching things that are not correct and boil down to simple man made opinions and not good ones at that.

Unfortunately, some IFB folks wish to stick their head in the sand.

If it was just a wrong view of church history that in and of itself I have no real issue with (not saying it is not important but I personally have no issue with), but it is not just church history, it is the teaching that the KJV is the ONLY correct version all others are satanic (every single IFB church I have ever been in the pastor has worked that into the sermon somewhere). It is the preaching that if a woman wears pants she is not a good christian and possibly (probably) not saved (again all of the IFB I have attended have preached that). It is the whole litany of other non biblical things that somehow they attach to the bible and then make it a test of spirituality.

But if they had any respect whatsoever for the Historic Christian Church they'd have a hard time justifying this phariseeism.

In other words they would not interpret Deuteronomy 22 to condemn pants on women if they CARED AT ALL that the Historic Christian Church never saw it that way. They'd say, "Well, I am probably wrong in my interpretation of this passage since THE ENTIRE CHRISTIAN FAITH never saw it this way before!"

But they don't CARE what the historic Christian Church believes about ANY passage- because they didn't come from no whore!!! (that's what many of them say about us- we came from the catholic church which is The Whore according to them)

KJVO could not survive in the philosophy of a people who respected the beliefs of the Historic Christian Faith.

It is EXACTLY their hyper-autonomy and hyper-independence (the source of which is ignorance) that is at the ROOT- I mean the very ROOT- of their gross error on MANY things.

Actually had a preacher tell me when I asked him to pray for my brother who was (is) battleing depression issues that my brother was obviously not saved or if he was he wasn't a good christian as no spiritual christian would have depression issues.

Ignorance is at the root of that mess.

The same ignorance that gives rise to all kinds of heresy and evil.

This ignorance ought to be condemned with all ferocity on bb but it is MOSTLY defended as is evident on this very thread.

My brother IS in fact saved and at the time was serving as a youth worker in his church (baptist). This is what Luke is calling out, this tripe that is somehow associated with the bible and used to beat people over the head with. I understand that the Bible is the Sword of the Spirit and that the HS uses the bible to penetrate into our souls to work repentance and conviction, but the Bible is NOT the club of the preacher to bludgeon people into submission. Are these things heresy? I would say so but I also understand that in the absolute strictest sense of the word they are not. They are however ungodly and unbiblical and need to be renounced and called out for the (imho) wickedness that they are.

Exactly

 

[Luke2427]

And I thought I'd add this remark for the record:

I have not studied the history enough to decide for myself whether or not I believe there was an unbroken line. I do know this though: it doesn't affect my salvation, or hamper my ability to influence others for Christ. To me, the issue of whether or not there is an unbroken line all the way back is about as important as the question "what color was Adam's skin?"

You are TERRIBLY, TERRIBLY, TERRIBLY wrong here.

It is EXTREMELY important that you cherish the history of the Body of Christ before you preach any doctrine.

You believe in the Trinity- that Jesus is the Son of God and God himself, very God of very God, eternally begotten of the Father- BECAUSE the Historic Christian Church (not this mythical line of baptists) worked that out of the Scriptures for you.

To act like this is not important is GROSS, GROSS, GROSS error.

It is also EXTRAORDINARY arrogance to pretend that you do not NEED the help of the Church to comprehend the Great Doctrines of the Faith.

God opens the great doctrines of the Scripture to the BODY of Christ- not to individuals in a vacuum.

You NEED the Body of Christ which has spanned nearly 2,000 years of history to help you understand the great doctrines of the Faith.

To pretend otherwise is unbridled arrogance.

If you have to have a good, solid grasp on history to be effective for Christ, then I guess God was mistaken when he said (para) "My word shall not return void".

You have to properly interpret the Word for it to go out in a beneficial (not heretical) manner.

You NEED the Body of Christ to help you do that.

The great evil of MANY IFB is that they deny this.

Their independence is what makes them DEADLY.

The way i read that it says that as long you are giving out the word, you'll be rewarded.

Yes, and if you had any respect at all for the Historic Faith you'd interpret that properly instead of erroneously like you do here.

JW's send out the Word.

Mormons send out the Word.

Jim Jones sent out the Word.

What do they all have in common?

One major thing- THEY COULDN'T CARE LESS WHAT THE HISTORIC FAITH TAUGHT.

They did not think they NEEDED the Body of Christ to help them interpret the Word.

That arrogance costs MANY people their lives and souls.

You are apparently like many people in this culture- you love simplicity. You want everything to be simple- especially when it comes to Christianity. But it is not- by any means. And you need the Body of Christ to help you digest the meat of the Word of God.

The only history that I need to have a solid grasp on is my own: I once was lost, but now am found; was blind, but now I see.

If you are saved it is because the Body of Christ defended and delivered the Faith once delivered to the saints for you.

That Faith was preserved amidst a blaze of heresy and demonic opposition and the fire that came against it served to refine it.

For you to fail to appreciate that is not good- AT ALL.

 

[preacher4truth]

ashleysdad nailed it.

Others are just in denial concerning these facts.

 

[Sapper Woody]

The fact that I assault IFB for their belief in it here does not negate that fact.

Finally, an admission that you are attacking IFB. Regardless of why you think you are, you finally admitted that you are.

I can conclude that these people believe they have an unbroken line separate from the Historic Church all the way back to the Apostles- wait for it- IF THEY SAY THEY DO!

And that wasn't what I was talking about. I assumed you were a psychic based upon the fact that you knew what the Episcopalians were thinking, and whether or not they knew what was going on. Please try to take my words in context of the quotes I am responding to.

You believe in the Trinity- that Jesus is the Son of God and God himself, very God of very God, eternally begotten of the Father- BECAUSE the Historic Christian Church (not this mythical line of baptists) worked that out of the Scriptures for you.

It does not matter the origins of the doctrine. If it is right, it is right. If the mormons worked out truth, it's still truth. If the RCC worked it out, it's still truth. Truth is truth, no matter the source. I don't believe it because someone told me to. I believe it because I am convinced it is true. The origins of the truth have no bearing on whether I choose to believe it or not.

JW's send out the Word.

Mormons send out the Word.

Jim Jones sent out the Word.

No, they sent out a word. They perverted the true word.

If you are saved it is because the Body of Christ defended and delivered the Faith once delivered to the saints for you.

That Faith was preserved amidst a blaze of heresy and demonic opposition and the fire that came against it served to refine it.

For you to fail to appreciate that is not good- AT ALL.

Funny, I thought that I am saved because of the grace of God, but you in your infinite understanding of history must know more than those of us who like to keep things simple, and call truth truth.

And i appreciate the fact that God's word and the doctrines were preserved throughout the years. However, the source is not important. Only that God saw fit to bring it to me down through the years.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

It is amazing how those (IFB) who are the most critical & condemning of different-minded believers attempt to define their detractors as mere haters. Legalistic IFB philosophy is steeped in ignorance & arrogance. This is not an attack on the misguided individual believer, but is a repudiation of a spiritually destructive ideology that seeks to control the spirituality of others.
IFB's defend themselves from accountability the same way as liberal democrats; by ignoring the substance of the accusation & accusing the accusers of just being "haters". At least this is how it was done in the dozens & dozens of IFB churches I was associated with.

 

[John of Japan]

It is amazing how those (IFB) who are the most critical & condemning of different-minded believers attempt to define their detractors as mere haters. Legalistic IFB philosophy is steeped in ignorance & arrogance. This is not an attack on the misguided individual believer, but is a repudiation of a spiritually destructive ideology that seeks to control the spirituality of others.
IFB's defend themselves from accountability the same way as liberal democrats; by ignoring the substance of the accusation & accusing the accusers of just being "haters". At least this is how it was done in the dozens & dozens of IFB churches I was associated with.

And not in the 100s of IFB I have been to or am associated with.

According to a 2008 survey, there are over 13,719 IFB churches in the US alone, with over 4876 foreign missionaries, meaning there are 1000s of IFB churchees overseas. This makes such anecdotal generalizations as your absurd.

 

[John of Japan]

Moderators, isn't 36 pages enough for this pathetic mis-spell of a thread, now admitted by Luke to be an attack on the very people this forum is designed for? I've never seen a thread go so long. Wasn't there a 20 page rule of some kind?
:tonofbricks::BangHead:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Moderators, isn't 36 pages enough for this pathetic mis-spell of a thread, now admitted by Luke to be an attack on the very people this forum is designed for? I've never seen a thread go so long. Wasn't there a 20 page rule of some kind?
:tonofbricks::BangHead:

Good point