Where oh where is the Sabbath?

And he who said those things also said "do not bear false wotness". I never said those individual commandms were for Israel only, as they were universal. You just don't seem to understand that, or refuse, because you need to twist someones argument to dismiss their refutation of your doctrine.

"celebrated"? Where do you see that in the account of Adam? You just take the liberty to add whatever you think should be there, purely by projection, because you see mention of "sabbath". Can you tell us what Adam and Eve did in the 40th year, on the 6th month also?
Nowhere does it say HOW this "sabbath" was acknowledged by man, if it was even revealed to him at that point at all! (It is revelead to the reader, not the people in the narrative). You just can't interpret like that, or if you insist, then you keep the day to the Lord, and leave everyone else alone! You may try to argue "what good was it, to them then?", but you are reading way too much into the text. Just see where the text leads without speculating on what they did, and you will see that as sin entered, and life and work became hard as a result, more rules were added. Then, the people God chose needed to "observe" this day to both rest and remind them of who God was.

"spoke to all your assembly" THROUGH MOSES! You are setting scripture against scripture. The actual narrative says that the people could not see or hear God, and Moses continued to relay the message to them. You yourself even just quoted it all again. But then you go and pull this other verse out, to contradict that. But you fail to understand that when God speaks THROUGH someone, He still speaks TO the ones the person He speaks through addresses. Just look at all the words of the prophets who speak the word of the Lord in the first person! He speaks THROUGH them!

The way to keep the Passover and the other days may be the specific instructions for that day, such as the Passover sacrifice. But a sacrifice does not mean it is a sabbath. When the day is further designated as a sabbath, then you have to turn to the instruction that is used for the 7th day, to see exactly what is prohibited.
Once again, the other days are SABBATHS as well, and there is no statement "Christ our {unleavened bread, Pentecost, Trumpets, Tabernacles, Day of atonement, last Great Day} is slain for us".
Besides, your argument would suggest that the annual sabbaths HANG ON the sacrifices, but the sacrifices are not apart of the Ten, and the 613 do not hang on each other. Both the sacrifices and the annual sabbaths hang on the 10; one the proper worship of God, and the other, the instructions for sabbaths.

 

Genesis 2 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God's final act of creation was to bless, and sanctify, the seventh day. We are not only told that God blessed, and sanctified this day, but also why He did so. It was because He rested from all of the work of creation. At the end of the sixth day, God saw all that He had created, and pronounced it very good ( Gen 1: 31 ). The last thing created, before God created the Holy day, was man. Man was to have dominian over all the earth, which God had just created. Before God gave over the dominian of the earth to man, He first spent a day of rest with man, contemplating the creation. Certainly, one who was just created, would need to become acquainted with his creator, and the works of His creation. This was why the day was established, that man might continually be reminded every seventh day, that God was the creator of all, including himself.

On the first day, God said let there be light, there was light, and there still is. He divided the day from the night, and they still are. On the second day, God made our atmosphere, and separated it from the heavens, and it still is. On the third day, God separated the waters from the dry land, and created all plant life. The waters and land are still separate, and the earth is full of plant life to this day. On the fourth day, God made the Sun, Moon, And the stars. They are still here today. On the fifth day, God made the creatures of the waters, and the fowl of the skies. They are still here today. On the sixth day, God created the creatures of the earth, and mankind. We are still here today. On the seventh day, God rested, and blessed and sanctified the seventh day. The seventh day is still a holy day today. It is just as established, as the rest of the things which God created in the first seven days of this world. Nothing, and no one, can change that, but God alone.

Psalm 33 4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

It took only a very short time after the fall for humanity to forget not only the Sabbath, but even God himself. This in no way changed the status of the day blessed and sanctified by God. The realities of the standards, or laws which God has established, in both the physical, and spiritual realms, is not effected by what humanity chooses to believe, or not believe. We are the ones effected by what we choose to believe, not reality. God is reality. He is, always has been, and always will be. Apart from Him there is nothing. Those who choose of their own free will, not to live in accordance with the reality of the standards, and laws which God has established, are choosing to be nothing.

Colossians 1 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

There is nothing apart from God. He is the creator, and sustainer of all. Although we have been given the freedom by Him to exist apart from his will, in this short life, the end result will be non existance. The present world that we live in, would not be in the situation it is in, if God did not allow this freedom to all His created beings. There was first, one in heaven who chose to exist outside of reality. He brought this mind set to earth with him, and spread it's influence to our progenitors, with their willing cooperation. Thus the present dilemma.

Exodus 20 8 [/i]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy[/i] . 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

It is not possible to remember something that never existed. God’s command to remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is proof positive that the day existed, and was to be kept holy prior to the time this command was given. This time was at creation, when the day was blessed and sanctified by God. Moreover, by Christ, who is the Creator. What other purpose could there be for making a period of time holy, than for that time to be observed as such? To suggest that it wasn’t, is nonsense.

Matthew 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What part of the above verses is to hard to understand? The Creator, when he was here in the flesh, said that the law will not change in any way. Not until heaven and earth pass. The law He is referring to is the commandments.

Matthew 24 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Speaking about the end of time, Christ says, to pray that you will not have to flee in the winter, or on the Sabbath day. Do you really think that Christ didn’t know that the Sabbath wouldn’t matter any more at the end of time? To the contrary, He knew that it would be an important issue to His true followers at the end of time. For this reason, He admonishes His servants to pray that they will not have to flee on the Sabbath day, knowing that the day we choose as our Sabbath, will be a crucial issue at the time of the end.

Joel 3 9Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 17So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Before the Lord returns, there will be a gathering together of the gentiles preparing for war. The message that prepares them for war, is a message from God. It is a message that will bring the entire world into the valley of decision. The Lord is near in the valley of decision. When all have heard this message, and made their decision in regards to it, then the harvests of the world will be ripe, and the sickle will be put into action. The harvests must be ripe before they are reaped. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of these harvests.

Matthew 13 24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. -------------------------
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Again, before the Lord Jesus Christ returns, the harvests will be ripe, and ready to be reaped. This will take place during one generation. So that the whole world will have made their decision, and therefore Christ will return. For the gospel must be preached in all the world, and then the end shall come.( Matt. 24:14)

Revelation 14 6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The three angels messages of the above verses are the message from God that will bring all the world to the valley of decision. They are part of the everlasting gospel, which Christ said must be preached unto all the world, and then the end shall come. The first angel calls all back to worship the one who created the world. It states exactly what the fourth commandment does, that God is the creator. It is calling all back to worship God on the day that He blessed and sanctified at creation, for this very purpose.
The second angel warns the world about the fall of Babylon, and calls all of God's people out of her ranks. She is that great city, that is Rome. She is none other than the church of Rome, and all those apostate Christians, and religions of the world that will join her ranks in rebellion against God.
The third angel warns everyone not receive the mark of the beast. Probably the most stern warning in all the scriptures. Those who receive the mark of the beast, are those who choose the day of worship put forth by the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, that is, the Church of Rome, over the day of worship that God Himself has ordained. This day they claim as a mark, or sign of their power in the earth. This is the message that will divide the world into the two harvests to be reaped. God's day, representing faith in Him, or Rome’s day, representing faith in man. There will be no in between. Choose you this day, whom you will serve.
The difference, between those who worship the beast, and those who don’t, is the keeping of the commandments of God. That is, those who don’t worship the beast, keep the fourth commandment. Those who do, do not keep the fourth commandment, but obey the beast rather than God, by observing the false day of worship created by the Church of Rome.
After this decision has been made by all, the angels which Christ spoke of in the book of Matthew, will be sent forth to reap the two harvests of the world. These two days are not just days, they represent two different systems of worship. The one, the true worship of God, by faith in His word alone. The other, representing a system of partial worship of God, with partial worship of man. By faith in some of God's word, and some of mans traditions. The only faith that saves, is faith in the Son of God alone, who is Himself, the WORD of God. Thus it is not okay, to just choose any day we want. The more so, the nearer His coming approaches, and the more this message is given. Thus I have given it to you. What you do with it, is not my responsibility, only the giving of the message.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

That is true. God MADE the Sabbath day FOR mankind (Mark 2:27) and we SEE Christ the creator "MAKING" the day Holy in Gen 2:3.

If it was blessing FOR mankind even before the fall - how much more necessary AFTER the fall. As you point out - how quickly the family of the saints fell away.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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That is just the point. THE way to KEEP Passover is NOT simply by "Remembering the 7th day of Creation week"!!

IT is by the Lev 23 process described for the PAssover LAMB.

Christ "OUR Passover" is "SLAIN".

There is no "Christ our CREATION SABBATH IS SLAIN" because the Creation SABBATH is NOT SLAIN!!

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#1. There IS no passover WITHOUT the SLAYING of the Passover lamb.

#2. Lev 23 SAYS to rest AND to come together for for the Passover meal. Lev 23, Ex 12, Deut 16 give the details for Passover. The Sabbath commandment ONLY gives the REASON for the WEEKLY Sabbath day of rest it says nothing about Passover -- at all!

Lev 23:8 we see 7 DAYS of Holy Convocation (not in the Sabbath commandment). In Lev 23:5 we see the Passover meal "At twilight" (NOT in the Sabbath commandment). In Lev 23:7 we see the command to refrain from work. ALL This known about Passover APART from reading for Passover.

There is no indication at all the Jews EVER went to Exodus 20 to find out HOW TO observe Passover!! The only thing mentioned IN exodus 20 for "observance' is "not working". But in Lev 23:7 the command to "not work" is given clearly for PAssover. So NOTHING to reach out to Exodus 20 for and "learn" about Passover not already given in Lev 23.

As pointed out - no indication AT ALL the Exodus 20 has ever been used as "instruction" on Passover for the Jews.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I have a technical question about keeping the Sabbath.

What does one do about keeping the Sabbath if one is living at the research station located at the South Pole? For there will be six months with no sunlight. How does one mark the beginning and ending of the sabbath day?

 

I think I recall that both North and South Pole Sabbath keepers use the 6pm - 6pm rule when days extend beyond 24 hours.

 

Bob, you're focusing particularly on the Passove, but there are 6 other annual days as well. Their individual commands may reiterate not working, but still, they are types of "sabbath days", and thus fall under the the fourth commandment. Remember, the ten hang on the two, and this can be clearly divided as the first four corresponding to the "first great commmandment", and the last six corrspunding to the second. Likewise, the 613 hang on the 10, maning each of them correspond in some way to one of the ten, so that the whole Law is represented.
And in all of this, I neglected the fact that while you're making such a big deal of which commandments are mentioned in the New Testament, we see some of the others mentioned there as well. "Let us keep the feast [of unleavened bread](1 Cor.5:8).
"You shall not muzzle the ox that treads the corn" (1 Cor.9:9, 1 Tim.5:8)
"they should abstain from...things strangled, and blood" (Acts 15:20)
So this distinction of "only the Ten are eternal, and the rest are not" is imaginary. If a commandment has been superseded, you must show how it is now fulfilled spiritually. You cannot make a general rule like you have made, because it does not work consistently, and what you end up with , is that you pick and choose which ones are still in effect (violate that general rule). Fine, but don't come criticizing everyone else for not following the ones you choose.

 

Sorry, but all of this is not in the text. You are reading it in based on what you think it means, but none of that is there. If you think so, then as I told Bob somewhere, you keep the day unto the Lord, but you cannot judge anyone else.

You should read what Claudia on your own side posted. Even that original rest was spiritual, not physical. God would not need physical rest, and neither would man before the Fall, when work was not strenuous, and probably had more physical capabilities. So yes, spiritual rest continues, and it is no lonmger focused on just one day a week, but expands to every day, just like other commandments expand in principle.

Then why do we NOT ONCE see God condemning peoiple for forgetting the sabbath, other than Israel after He gave Moses the Law. We see both the people before Israel, as well as the pagans afterwards, and erring Hebrews and Christians repeatedly condemned, in word, and sometimes in action, for forgetting God, killing, sexual sin, and everything else.

"Remember" means "I am commanding this to you now [and actually; He had first commanded it four chapters earlier], so do not forget". You are reading WAY TOO MUCH into every verse you can get your hands on and possibly read something into.

You should know better than this. The LAw has changed. You do not keep the majority of it. But then, of course, you (as Bob is doing_ are trying to redefine "The Law" as the Ten ONLY. But that does not work. Mark 7:10 and Romans 7:7 show that the Ten Commandments are apart of the same "Law" as the rest.

I had addressed this also somewhere in one of these threads. The passage also speaks of "those in Judea" fleeing intot he mountains. Is that for everybody today? Of course not. What many do not realize is that these propecies were DUAL, meaning that there was a typical fulfillment then for that generation culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem (which ironically, was the typical "Babylon" in that case!) in AD70. THAT is how you explain all those "time statements" saying it would be fulfilled in the liftime of "some of you standing here". These people were still in a way under the Law as long as the Temple stood, so yes, there was a lot of sabbathkeeping. But that does not suggeste "everyone will always be bound to sabbathkeeping". It was spoken to a groiup of people in particular; (just like fleeing from Judea), and today, anyone who does keep the sabbath (or live in Judea) can use that particular instruction. Bt that os not everybody.

Once again, the whole issue of the ages is a day of worship. Even though not a single person is condemned or even admonished for not keeping it all throughout the New Testament, and nobody in the whole Bible except OT Israel. All based on one single verse reiterating a universal truth about God (that He made the Heavens and earth and all things in them), that was also mentioned in the sabbath command. This then is called a "quote" of the command; showing that this is the issue the final judgment of the world is over. Why wouldn't God come right out and say it is if were that important to Him? Bob earlier criticized "inference and innuendo", and once again, that is all that this is, yet the most important issue in all of prophetic history is based on it!
Psalms 146:6 and Acts 4:24, 14:15 also mentions "God, which have made heaven, and earth, and the sea", and this had nothing to do with the sabbath; it was just worhipping god for who He was! So as hard as you all try, that combination of words is NOT some code phrase for the sabbath!

 

That is true. I just wanted to give a clear example of who the shaddow Sabbaths - the predictive sabbaths - the Sabbaths based in animal SACRIFICE pointing forward to the work of Christ - were fullfilled in "slaying".

"Christ Our PASSOVER has been SLAIN" 1Cor 5.

By contrast there is no "Christ our Creation Sabbath has been SLAIN" as if "slaying" had anything to do with the Creation Sabbath.

The Word "Sabbath" means "rest". But this does not allow us to obfuscate and "mix" Christ the Creator's own Seventh-day "Holy Day" with all other 'annual' Sabbaths NOT given in Gen 2:3 and NOT written on tablets of stone and NOT spoken directly by God to the assembly.

Rather the ONE Seventh-day Sabbath of Christ the Creator is the ONLY ONE ON stone and to which God Himself states "AND He ADDED No More"!!

This is the ONE that Adam kept before the fall.

The is the ONE that Christ said "Was MADE FOR MANKIND".

The is the ONE that D.L. Moody speaks to in his sermon on the Ten Commandments - still valid today!

Indeed. Lev 19:18 (the Levitical Law) "Love your Neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" - (The Law of Moses).

These two foundation commands form the base upon which the TEN stand. They TOO are "continued" and they TOO were "perfectly fulfilled by Christ"

But when Christ fulfilled the ANIMAL SACRIFICE - PREDICTIVE Laws this did NOTHING to abolish the Lev 19:18 command to love your neighbor.

Neither did it abolish Christ the Creator's own Holy Day of the Ten Commandments!

Neither did it make lying "ok to do" after the death of Christ.

The "predictive laws" predicting the SAcrifice of Christ in ANIMAL sacrifices end - but the "prescriptive laws" to Love our Neighbor and to Honor Christ the Creator's Holy Day of Gen 2:3 -- remain.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. Paul himself continued to KEEP the PREDICTIVE laws contained in animal sacrifices (like Passover) EVEN Though Heb 10 "explicitly" shows that THEY ended!

#2. In Rom 14 Paul speaks of those who "OBSERVE ALL the days" listed in Lev 23 and those who "OBSERVE ONE OVER another" - and there he says that each one is allowed to OBSERVE these predictive laws as their conscience dictates. I have no problem with someone choosing to keep Passover EVEN THOUGH "Christ our PASSOVER is SLAIN" and ALL the "Sacrifices" are "ended" according to Heb 10.

#3. The quote from Acts 15 is NT LAW being taken right out of the book of Leviticus. NOT by way of saying "this still applies to us" but by way of saying "SEE this is required because it is in scripture"!!

How facinating. Instead of "deleting scripture" in a "cut and paste" process - they were UPHOLDING it declaring that those things commanded IN scripture were binding!

In Christ,

Bob

 

What???

Did God "IMAGINE" that He "ADDED NO MORE"???

Do you "imagine" that animal sacrifices have to "continue" UNLESS we abolish God's TEN COMMANDMENTS to get at Christ the Creator's Holy day given to ADAM with NO ANIMAL SACRIFICES??

God "ADDED NO MORE" to that UNIT of Ten - giving us "no excuse" to pretend to be "confused" about their unique and isolated distinct role as GOD HIMSELF presents them.

Was his point "imaginary" in the above text??

God directed that ONLY the TEN commandments be kept INSIDE the ARK.

God wrote ONLY THE TEN commandments in HIS OWN handwriting.

God spoke ONLY the TEN Commandments to the ASSEMBLY.

God speaks about the actual name "TEN COMMANDENTS" - never does God say "The 613 Commandments" as though this were some kind of "unit".

The ONE UNIT God DOES identify, isolate, specifiy - is the PRIMARY target of man-made tradition. Do you really think that this is "coincidence"??

Christ said to Pilate "My kingdom is NOT of this world". Is it any wonder that God's special and uniquely identified "UNIT OF TEN" is the primary target of man-made tradition in world that is "NOT" part of HIS Kingdom?

In Christ,

Bob

 

But if that's your proof that the Passover is a shadow of Christ; it doesn't prove the other days are. Once again, Feat of Tabernacles points to the Millennium. Day of Trumpets points to the beginning of the end-time Judgments.

(Once again, ALL were not spoken directly. They could not directly hear or see God). My only point there was that the Law is all connected. Th 613 hang on the Ten; they are not some separate thing that God did not even seriously give to them, according to what your words would suggest.

It oes not say he "kept" it, in our sense of the word. Now, you may use your roundabout indirect a=b=c=d "inference" to suggest so, but don't then act like it is clearly stated there.

Uh, the sacrifices hung on the ten, which hung on the two. Nobody said the two hung on the sacrifices, for the two to be abolished by the fulfillment of the sacrifices.

That's a universal law, apart of "loving your neighbor". Nobody said it was OK.

That is NOT the "two" commandments! Now you are getting it mixed up and substituting one thing for another. IT is "love our neighbor" and "love God". Whether that includes honoring a day is what we are debating, but let's keep straight what the two are.

NO! The first two things he is mentioning SYMBOLICALLY (e.g "muzzling an ox" clearly refers to the context of allowing ministers to be supported by those they minister to). I thought you would be the one to point this out.

He does NOT say anthing about "Lev.23" There you go adding things that are not there again! Who anywhere at any time kept some of the annual days, and not others? No Jew or Gentile would. They wopuld either keep all, or none. So "one day over another" means exactly what it looks like. Some keep some days as sabbaths (whether annual or weekly), and some do not set aside any such days.

Oh so now it's because it's "in scripture". What happened to "Just these Ten and He added no more"? The rest of the 613 are in the SAME "scriptures", so if what you're saying now is true, the sacrifices would still be in effect, predictive shadows, or not!
You are changing and sliding all over the place. You are the one cutting and pasting, and you can't even be consistent in how you decide which commands are in effect or superseded or not.

Once again, you just contradicted this above. At least two of the 613 commands outside the ten are in effect, so there must be "more" after all! You proved my point! Amazing how you can go back and forth between conflicting arguments in the same breath. You need to make up your mind.

Now you're just talking air. Not everyoe who opposes sabbatarianis is upholding some "tradition" such as Sunday. I certainly don't. The Bible tells us to be ready to give an answer for our faith (1 Pet.3:15), so if someone comes accusing us of sin, we must be able to show that that is not the case. Has nothing to do with "tradition", which you can be accused of as well.

 

Exod 31:18 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Deut 9:10 10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

Deut 10:1-5 1 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
2 vAnd I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
3 And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.
4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

Exodus 19 10And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, 11And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. 12And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: 13There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. 14And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. 15And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
16And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. 17And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. 18And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. 19And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. 20And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up. 21And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish. 22And let the priests also, which come near to the LORD, sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break forth upon them. 23And Moses said unto the LORD, The people cannot come up to mount Sinai: for thou chargedst us, saying, Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it. 24And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them. 25So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
Exodus 20 1And God spake all these words, saying, 2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13Thou shalt not kill. 14Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15Thou shalt not steal. 16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
18And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. 21And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

Eric, are you insane? You really cannot see the difference between the ten commandments, and the rest of the laws given to the nation of Israel? You must be the single most ignorant person I have ever come in contact with. I truly do not say this out of anger or malice, but out of shear amazement. God, I say God man, personally wrote the ten with His own finger. He supernaturally carved them into solid stone with His own finger. Not just once, but twice. After Moses smashed the first tables, God would still not allow them to be written by another, but Himself. So, twice, He supernaturally carved them in solid stone with His own finger. This is the God whose very presence, unveiled, will destroy this entire world at the second coming. I do not believe that you have any concept of the infinite power and awesomeness of the God you claim to worship.

The ten commandments were also spoken by God Himself to the children of Israel in an awesome, and yet veiled display. The entire mountain smoked like a furnace, because God descended upon it in fire. It shook and quaked greatly. There were thunders, and lightniings, and the sound of an awesomely loud trumpet. The people were to afraid to remain and listen. Knowing this, if you see no difference, it is because you are truly, willingly ignorant. You have turned your back on the truth, in order to believe your lie. You are in danger brother, of falling into the following category.

2 Thessalonians 2 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The Lord Jesus Christ admonished us to keep the commandments of God as He did when here on earth. Christ kept all of the commandments, including the fourth. Those who do not wish to keep the fourth commandment, do not wish to follow the example of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

John 15:10 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Those who are Christ’s, will keep the commandments, as Christ did when here on earth. Eric, is Christ your example, or not? As a Christian, are you to strive to walk as he walked when here on earth, or not? Explain to me, how it is, that you are not supposed to follow His example, and His command in the above verses.

One other point brother. If Paul was speaking of weekly Sabbaths, as well as the others, then what other weekly day of worship could he have been referring to, that the Jews, or Christians were observing? There was no other weekly day of worship being observed by the Jews, or Christians of the day. Sunday worship did not come into play until well after the days of the apostles. Unless of course, you are reading way to much into the few verses of new testament scriptures that mention the first day of the week.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Once again, the only difference is that the rest of the laws hung on the ten. The Ten were the summary of the whole law, just as the ten hang on or are summarized by the Two. You all cannot see this, because you are looking for reasons to look down on the rest of the Church as disobedient and ignorant and in danger of judgment as you are doing here with me (that's all this is really about). You pick and choose which laws you keep. You and Bob make up this distinction that only the Ten are eternal, but you do keep some of the others, which WEREN'T written in stone (dieteary, for instance, is nowhere on there). Yet. you're calling ME ignorant!
Once again, you can read from the very quote you posted and the points you bolded.

Moses goes up onto the mountain, and then comes down. He begins speaking to them, what God has spoke to him. He begins relaying "and God spoke all these words". They could see the thunderings, but they could not hear or see God directly. They heard "the noise of the trumpet". That's ALL it says they "HEARD".(v.18) You yourself quoted it, now read it and stop adding to it! Then, after they see and hear all of that, they are terrified, and then beg Moses not to let God speak to them directly. It doesn't mean that He had been speaking directly all along. If that were turu, then the onloy reason He would not have spoken the rest of the Law to them directly was because they begged Him not to, rather than because the rest of the Law was unimportant.
IF you really think that, then just see what would happen if they broke the rest of the Laws. as Paul reminds us "cursed is every one who continues not in in all things written in the book of the Law to do them" (Gal.3:10) There is NO distinction between "the ten" and "the rest". One set hangs on the other, and both hang on the Two, which is emphasized to us now. You have made this up, because you need an excuse against those who are more consistent with your lawkeeping doctrine and similiarly accuse you of being ignorant and disobedient for not keeping the annual sabbaths. (This would even include wopik if he is in the CGI of Garner Ted). They point out that the same arguments you are using to dismiss the annual sabbaths, is what we use to say we are not bound to the weekly sabbath. So you want to judge and condemn, you are judging yourself as well. Either we are under the whole law, or not. Your distinctions do not fly.

These prophecies were dual, and it originally referred to those Jews who kept the Law, rejected Christ, and believed "the lie" that they could overthrow the Romans in the war that culminated in Jerusalem being destroyed. I go into this in my Revelation page. In the future antitype, we do not know for sure what this "lie" will be (certainly not a day of worship, or lack of keeping), but it most likely will involve man's struggle to set up a Kingdom without Christ. Lawkeepers who seek to justify themselves through works-righteousness can get caught up in it as well. 666 is the number of man's carnal mind (he phren), not Sunday.

And here once again, is where your inconsistency shows through. Christ kept the entire 613. He was born under the Law, so naturally lived according to the life of an Old Testament Jew; only he did it perfectly without sin, unlike any other who ever lived. So if you take that verse that way--we should keep all of the commandments Christ kept; then we are debtors to do the whole Law! What that verse and "walking as He walked" means is that we are to keep all of the commandments that are in effect for our dispensation, and HE says that tis is all summed up in "love"--once again; the Two.

I don't take those verses on Sunday to prove Sunday worship. They are just passing references, and I agree that there is no authority granted Sunday anywhere.
But who said anything about "other weekly days"? There is a contrast between those to whom "every day is alike". To others, some days were spcial, or "above" any other day. These days were both annual and weekly. To the Jew, the weekly and annual sabbaths were above every other day of the week and year, respectively. We even see mentione of one called "a high day". This is not too hard to understand. It is only when one wants to reinterpret this to excuse their judging others over days, that they invent things like "this is keeping one annual day over another". There was no such practice among the Jews or gentiles persuaded to keep the Law. If they kept the Law, they would keep the whole law. Of course, today, with the proper understanding as referring to all days, we could extend it to people who do keep some of those annual days, but not others, such as the Church of God 7th Day which keep the Passover only. But that is a modern practice, and there was no distinction in Bible times of someone keeping osme of the annual days but not others. Clearly, it is a distinction between people who keep days at all, and those who don't.

 

Also, I forgot from yesterday in my response to your first post, to continue with exceprts from my page on the

17 So people will be forced to accept some sort of belief and practice, identifying them as belonging to the Beast, or they will not be able to buy or sell. This doesn't necessarily mean that stores won't accept one's money, as is the assumption in the popular "cashless society" theory, but that a person wouldn't be able to make a living— to even hold a job or function in society! Because enough hasn't been revealed yet, we cannot identify what exactly this mark will be. But as with the image of the beast, we can get some ideas of how it will work.

Several times in the prophecy of Revelation, the faithful, such as those with the seal of God, are said to be those who keep the "commandments of God, and the faith/testimony of Jesus". And this is contrasted with the mark of the Beast. So the Sabbathkeepers have the right idea when they say that this mark of the beast will involve some point of SIN. But they have the wrong issue of what "sin" it will be. This main 'issue of the ages' cannot be the Sabbath-Sunday dispute over 'days' of worship. In the New Testament, the Sabbath and other Old Testament CEREMONIAL 'commandments' are NEVER the issue regarding sin and obedience to God. Yes, it may have been included in the original 10 Commandments, but as those other commandments actually changed in application (Matthew 5), so the spirit of the fourth commandment is resting in Jesus (Matt.11:28-30, Hebrews 4). Yet, it's trusting in Jesus plus the other commandments— not worshiping false gods or idols, blasphemy, killing, adultery, stealing, lying or even the covetousness (lust) that leads us to these things that are clearly emphasized. These are the only things that are mentioned in Revelation and other prophecies as bringing the wrath of God on humanity, not days of worship (except in the Old Covenant when He was dealing specifically with Israel). (See web Sabbath and the Faith of Abraham for further discussion) And since man cannot keep even these commandments perfectly, the ultimate issue for every person is the acceptance or rejection of God's provision for our sinful state— His own Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who died to pay the penalty our sins deserve, so we could be righteous before a holy God. So the issue of the ages basically, is whether people will follow Jesus, or reject Him so they can continue in the lusts of the flesh & eyes, the pride of life, etc. Even those who try to keep the laws of God without Jesus ultimately fall short, and are left in their sins. So in this sense, the fourth commandment— rest/trust in Jesus is the ultimate issue. Millions of people have died without ever having to have accepted or rejected a mark of the beast, and they will still be saved or condemned according to their relationship with Jesus during their lifetime. God could right now send the final wrath mentioned in upcoming chapters to the unregenerate, sinning world, and you wouldn't even need a mark of the beast. (But God is letting the evil powers of the world manifest their rebellion against Him by enforcing some law that will in some way cause people to compromise the commandments of God, and/or ones testimony of Jesus).

One mild example I can use of this is what you may have to do to get a job in the first place. As times are getting tougher, and we compete with the global market, decent jobs one can live off of are getting more scarce and employers are getting increasingly scrutinous on people's work & experience record. Anything can be a spot on one's record, even periods out of work. It's like everyone has to practically lie or bend the truth to accentuate the positive and hide the negative. This was an issue in my early faith as my parents told me "what you have to do to survive" in society, and thought my new profession of faith would hamper that. Lying is sin. Yet, SURVIVAL is now at stake. This is REAL to people. They will do anything to survive, which is the basic instinct in all living things (which right there sets those who would follow the biblical command to give up one's life or freedom rather than support or worship evil against the rest of humanity).This is a fuzzy issue as it involves the question of how much "bending" of one's record constitutes lying, but it does give an example of how this may work.

So Satan is manipulating his business and government systems to make life so desperate that people will easily and quickly follow his Beast system rather than God. The day is fast approaching, when living will be so tight that the only way to survive in society will be by acts that violate God's will and compromise one's faith, whether it be stealing, stepping on others to get ahead, setting aside beliefs and morals to be accepted in society, etc. Every sinful act of greed by both rich and poor, great and small is justified under the guise of "survival". Satan has the entire world gripped by this reasoning, including much of the church. So you see how easily these prophecies can be fulfilled. Also keep in mind once again, that the fulfillment of this will be after the world shaking events of the first four trumpets. Much of society will perhaps even be thrown back into barbarian type conditions where survival certainly will be at any cost.

It's interesting to note how it is already almost impossible to get a job in this country without a social security number. But once again, that, as well as credit cards, bar codes, computers, etc. is not connected with sin. Perhaps they could be involved in the sense that the entire government system will be fighting against the returning Christ, and all of these things will be tokens of alliance with the evil powers. So these things can't completely be ruled out as fulfillments of the prophecy, but then the prophecy can't be limited to these things either. Anyone caught in their sins without Christ will be under the same wrath, even if he has nothing at all to do with the Beast system and its technologies.

18 The NUMBER of the Beast 666

This number is often taken too literally to mean, of course, an actual computer code number. But there are several historic titles that add up to it. After all, we are told that is the "number of a man", and to "count" it. And the letters of the ancient languages had numerical value, such as the Roman numeral system.

(exampls are "DCLXVI" --Roman numerals, Romiith, Lateinos; both names of the founder of Rome; "He Lateinos Basileia "the Latin Kingdom", "qsr nron" Ceasar Nero "stur", Saturn, "vv Il" Duc" for Mussolini; one of the heads of the Beast, and of course "Ekklesia Italia" and "Vicarius Die Filii" representing the corrupt Church of the empire. chi (600) Xi (threescore), stigma (defunct former 6thletter.) is what is translated "666" and represents three crosses. "Novus Ordo Seclorum"— "New Order of the Ages" on the back of our bills also comes close.

The number 6 represented the number of unrest for man who was created on the 6th day. It falls short of 7, which represented perfection. This goes along with the Gospel teaching about man and sin. Sin brings unrest. And a triple number represented the eternity of the thing symbolized. So 666 then, represents "eternal unrest", the fate of all who die in their sins without Christ. So the most significant term of all that adds up to this number is the Greek he pren— "the [natural] mind". It's this natural or "carnal" mind, devoid of God's Spirit, that is hostile to God (Rom.8:7). It gets us into such trouble with God because "it is not subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can be! So then those who are in the flesh, CANNOT please God" (v.7,8) THIS will be the snare of all the unregenerate people who manage to escape the actual mark of the Beast, such as the northern and eastern powers who fight against the Beast (and are obviously then, not worshiping the Beast). Their rejection of the atoning work of Christ in their lives makes them in God's sight all apart of man's world system of sin led by the archrebel, Satan. This also applies to political conservatives, including religious separatists who think that just shunning the "new world order" puts them on the right side. Yet, their whole agenda boils down to selfish self preservation— a worldly, fleshy value that is also a lure of Satan. (See above under the IMAGE of the Beast). So all unregenerate people, whether officially aligned with the Beast power or not, will still be (spiritually) branded with the number of the Beast, and of sin. (And Christians can unwarily get caught up in supporting it). That's why this verse and others specify "The mark...OR the name...OR the number..." It's possible to have one without the others. But any of them will bring the wrath of God.

Another noteworthy point is that King Solomon's income was 666 talents of gold, and it left him in a state of unrest. (1 Kings 10:14, Ecclesiastes 2:8-11, 17)

 

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That is true. I just wanted to give a clear example of who the shaddow Sabbaths - the predictive sabbaths - the Sabbaths based in animal SACRIFICE pointing forward to the work of Christ - were fullfilled in "slaying".

"Christ Our PASSOVER has been SLAIN" 1Cor 5.

By contrast there is no "Christ our Creation Sabbath has been SLAIN" as if "slaying" had anything to do with the Creation Sabbath.

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The Annnual Sabbaths have their foundation and basis in "animal sacrifice" - this is why we have the statement that "Christ our Passover is SLAIN".

Are you trying to say that ONLY PASSOVER is based in "animal sacrifice and offerings" that Heb 10 says is ENDED???

If so -- you have not made your case.

Failing that - we must go with the Bible point made - that the SLAYING of the animals given at the very START of the Lev 23 annual Sabbaths is BASIC to that predictive event pointing to the Messiah!

Paul HIMSELF confirms this saying that they are all SHADOWS POINTInG FORWARD to - predicting -the work of the Messiah!

#1. Nothing in the fall feasts points to anything beyond the 2nd coming.

#2. The Offering by fire (Animal Sacrifice) is central to the feast. Without it - there is no feast.

#3. Christ declares the animal sacrifices to end in Heb 10 via HIS one "once for all" sacrifice.

#4. Rom 14 - we are free to continue to "observe the day" if we so choose and learn from its spiritual lessons about the Gospel. But the "shadow" in "animal sacrifice" is ended.


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#1. Nothing in the fall feasts points to anything beyond the 2nd coming.

#2. The Offering by fire (Animal Sacrifice) is central to the feast. Without it - there is no feast.

#3. Christ declares the animal sacrifices to end in Heb 10 via HIS one "once for all" sacrifice.

#4. Rom 14 - we are free to continue to "observe the day" if we so choose and learn from its spiritual lessons about the Gospel. But the "shadow" in "animal sacrifice" is ended.

This could not be any simpler.

 

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The Word "Sabbath" means "rest". But this does not allow us to obfuscate and "mix" Christ the Creator's own Seventh-day "Holy Day" with all other 'annual' Sabbaths NOT given in Gen 2:3 and NOT written on tablets of stone and NOT spoken directly by God to the assembly.

Rather the ONE Seventh-day Sabbath of Christ the Creator is the ONLY ONE ON stone and to which God Himself states "AND He ADDED No More"!!

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In fact - all Ten were spoken BY GOD TO the Assembly according to BOTH Exodus 20 and Deut 5.

Why do you keep going to a point that can not possibly be defended???

HEre is the quote "again" please note the details.

I do not deny that it is ALL God's Word and that God spoke that word to Moses. BUT GOD makes a distinction when HE SAYS "And HE ADDED NO MORE" referring to the UNIQUE unit on STONE and SPOKEN TO the Assembly.

This point is impossible to miss!

Again you are misdirecting. The point was never "Only the Ten are inspired and serious".

The first "and most basic point" was simply to ADMIT to the obvious - that God DID make a distinction with the ten. The point was NOT that "all the rest of God's word is to be tossed out the window"!!

My first point was just the most obvious and basic part of "AND He added no more".

My second point was just the EQUALLY obvious and simple and basic point that it is interesting that THE unit GOD SINGLES OUT - is THE UNIT MOST often attacked in this world of sin.

This was saying NOTHING about the rest of God's Word not being important or inspired or true!!

You have spun this around as IF my argument was that the only part of God's word that matters is that UNIT that HE is all He really cares about.

In Christ,

Bob

 

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25So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
Exodus 20 1And God spake all these words, saying...
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Nothing in all of scripture says that God did not SPEAK TO the Assembly DIRECTLY - those TEN commandments.

Rather it EXPLICITLY contradicts your speculation above.

Since you are adverse to the "Details" lets walk through this.

These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly...with a GREAT VOICE

The "NO HE DID NOT" position you are taking is not defensible at all.

In Christ,

Bob

 

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This is the ONE SABBATH that Adam kept before the fall.
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The ONE MADE for mankind and the ONE MADE a Holy Day for MANKIND in Gen 2:3 -- ADAM's first DAY...

Even D.L. Moody admits to this simple, basic and obvious fact.

Clearly you are "reaching" for an argument that has not only failed from the POV of one who ACCEPTS Christ the Creator's Holy Day - but even D.L. MOODY sees that your position is hollow.

Why go there?

In Christ,

Bob