Where To Stand

[th1bill]

This morning, I find myself reversing position on the George Zimmerman shooting matter in Florida. It seemed to matter not that the young George Zimmerman was performing his assigned duty in the neighborhood that, having experienced an abnormal rash of Burglaries, had hired him to do, just what he was doing. First, knee-jerk, reactions did not consider that evidence of a burglary was found in Trevon Martin's back pack.

The Black and White copies of the Color Photos were, in this observer's opinion, intentionally unimpressive in relation to George's injuries, on the other hand, the forced release of the undoctored Color Shots are demonstrative of just what the ?kid? Trevon Martin did to George before he managed to reach his firearm to protect himself. In the pics, it is clear that the 17 year old ?child? Trevon, was, if not trying to murder George, he was Hell Bent on preventing George from having him arrested and was not verbally engaged at the time. There is a complete set of circumstances to be, carefully, examined before we make judgments.

From the beginning, I pointed out that the weapon George carried, on patrol, was legal in Florida, in spite of what the law elsewhere might allow or disallow. The reaction of the Florida State Attorney General was to turn George loose and the only changed after the Feds brought illegal pressure to bear on the Florida State Attorney General.

I send this and post it to the web, as this reenters the news, hoping to attract folks into moderating their reactions. From the outside, we are not members of the jury, so, please, let's not play the White Boy version of the current Black's game of knock Out. I'm going to pray to God for a just and righteous verdict in this case. Join me?

 

[Benjamin]

I'll bite, IMO Zimmerman was obviously continuously looking for trouble and a big question to me is “why” (his real motives)? (I believe he assigned himself to that “duty”.) Regardless, when he finally found the trouble he was looking for with great cowardness abused his right to possess deadly force to avoid getting beat up for assaulting, a teenager no less! Trying to prove himself as something he was not he made huge mistakes in his judgments of himself and his “victim”. He was an accident waiting to happen because of being in a place he was not properly mentally equipped for and playing a deadly game.

I told my kids growing up if you’ve been warned, neglected common sense and even disobeyed me then caused harm because of it it is more than a “misfortunate accident” it is rooted in being “being irresponsible” and “careless”. In this case the only thing black and white about it is that the guy was irresponsible getting himself into that position in several ways and he basically let his “quest” cause the death of a young man.

Even if this teenager, Martin, committed a burglary he didn’t deserve this clown killing him for it. I think he deserves some punishment for his stupidity. If it were my son killed because of this man’s idiotic quest I would expect him to pay for it, dearly, and think taking him off the streets as a danger to society for a while to get his head straight would be a minimum.

 

[Monster]

I'll bite, IMO Zimmerman was obviously continuously looking for trouble and a big question to me is “why” (his real motives)? (I believe he assigned himself to that “duty”.) Regardless, when he finally found the trouble he was looking for with great cowardness abused his right to possess deadly force to avoid getting beat up for assaulting, a teenager no less! Trying to prove himself as something he was not he made huge mistakes in his judgments of himself and his “victim”. He was an accident waiting to happen because of being in a place he was not properly mentally equipped for and playing a deadly game.

I told my kids growing up if you’ve been warned, neglected common sense and even disobeyed me then caused harm because of it it is more than a “misfortunate accident” it is rooted in being “being irresponsible” and “careless”. In this case the only thing black and white about it is that the guy was irresponsible getting himself into that position in several ways and he basically let his “quest” cause the death of a young man.

Even if this teenager, Martin, committed a burglary he didn’t deserve this clown killing him for it. I think he deserves some punishment for his stupidity. If it were my son killed because of this man’s idiotic quest I would expect him to pay for it, dearly, and think taking him off the streets as a danger to society for a while to get his head straight would be a minimum.

Well thought out, well argued. I agree completely. :thumbsup:

 

[th1bill]

No, both of your replies are short sighted and are focused on your personal opinions and thye law must never work that way because justice is blind. And the difference between these young men, both of them, is about five years. Trevon was old enough to have joined the Army, just as I did, with parental consent and George was just in his lower twenties. Neither of you understood the message nor the intent of the post and your knee-jerk reactions are, decidedly, not Christ like.

 

[SolaSaint]

Bill,

IMO, George will still be a scapegoat for what happened, just as this guy who made the Muslim video is now serving time because the left has decided to divert responsibilty to appease the masses. I agree with your OP, but if we are just now finding out about hidden photos and what was in travons bag, what else is there we don't know about. I feel that the bigger picture is what is made for public consumption in America. Do we really need to have instant access to all controversial crimes and such. It was the public outrage that made this incident a BIG DEAL. We have too many ambulance chasers in the media now..IMO.

 

[Benjamin]

No, both of your replies are short sighted and are focused on your personal opinions and thye law must never work that way because justice is blind. And the difference between these young men, both of them, is about five years. Trevon was old enough to have joined the Army, just as I did, with parental consent and George was just in his lower twenties. Neither of you understood the message nor the intent of the post and your knee-jerk reactions are, decidedly, not Christ like.

Both of your arguments were clearly short sighted knee- jerk reactions, you must be thinking of yourself.

First, Justice is not blind to “truth”. If I was the father of that murder “victim” (as I pointed out and you failed to address in your short sidedness) I would be right there with the prosecution making sure that “truth” was brought to light and justice was served!

Second, Zimmerman was 28 years old, 11 years older than that “teenager” and plenty old enough to be held accountable for his “irresponsibility” in his behavior being in the position he was in (which again you did not address).

Third, please note that not one word of my argument was directed to you personally, but toward your argument!

In your short sidedness you did not even come to understand that your attempt to defend his actions by making your argument were thoroughly refuted and remain so after your incredibly weak, unfactual and geared to insulting as your main rebuttal.

After demonstrating your complete lack of ethical ability to address what was said in in contradiction of your attempted defense for Zimmerman your response to those who engaged “your reasoning” was to tell them that they must not have understood “your argument” and then personally attack us insinuting we (those who disagreed with you) are not Christ-like! Sir, on top of your response which displays shameful ignorance, arrogance and poor reasoning skills I suggest you take another look at your own behavior as you come on to a debate board and try to argue “your” side of this debate.

 

[th1bill]

Bill,

IMO, George will still be a scapegoat for what happened, just as this guy who made the Muslim video is now serving time because the left has decided to divert responsibilty to appease the masses. I agree with your OP, but if we are just now finding out about hidden photos and what was in travons bag, what else is there we don't know about. I feel that the bigger picture is what is made for public consumption in America. Do we really need to have instant access to all controversial crimes and such. It was the public outrage that made this incident a BIG DEAL. We have too many ambulance chasers in the media now..IMO.

Rick, your point is well taken and you have well considered the matter. And i know from both Ministry experience and from some Barna Group Church Surveys that, on the whole, only about two percent of the membership of any Church Family are living Christian lives and following Jesus but, that being true or not, it is my task as a Lay Preacher/Teacher to move those calling on the name of the Christ to move away from the World and closer to the LORD.

Being raised by an American Veteran and being a triple vet myself I know that I can deo nothing about the rebellious but, just as scripture instructs s about steel sharpening steel, I do my best to rub against my brothers and sisters, both the sharpen and to be sharpened. It is from that perspective that I often am found addressing what is called hopeless. A thing becomes hopeless, only when all hope is abandoned.

God bless.

 

[mont974x4]

I have yet to read a comment (here or on news media sites) that was against Zimmerman that relied only on facts to make their case. They have all been emotionally charged and showing their bias right out of the gate. Ben's post here is a case in point. The "clown" comments and the opinions of the thought process and motive of Zimmerman betray you.

 

[th1bill]

Second, Zimmerman was 28 years old, 11 years older than that “teenager” and plenty old enough to be held accountable for his “irresponsibility” in his behavior being in the position he was in (which again you did not address).

I'll go right to the root of your attempt to find a base for your sad and not Christ like attempt to generate a fight. Your incorrect use of the, now, triple highlighted irresponsibility. If a married man does any less than to make every effrort to feed, cloth and to otherwise render care for his family, he is then irresponsible... George is certainly not guilty of that.

If a man treads into a known area of danger from other, unkown, persons without the pistol or the revolver he is licensed to carry, he or she is an irresponsible fool. George did not do that, so, again, not guilty. George was hired or assigned the duty of protecting the neighborhood he was patrolling so, there, he is found faithful... e is guilty of that.

The evidense, leaked, to this point shows that the young man, not kid, Trevon, took George to the ground while he was placing one more phone call to the Police. The broken and bloody nose along with the open wounds to George's head on all side from being bashed into the concrete are all factors that must be taken into account when dealing with this matter.

You are making yourself look very racist in this matter by acting like a Klansman. I do wish you would not do that but rather follow your God.

 

[th1bill]

I have yet to read a comment (here or on news media sites) that was against Zimmerman that relied only on facts to make their case. They have all been emotionally charged and showing their bias right out of the gate. Ben's post here is a case in point. The "clown" comments and the opinions of the thought process and motive of Zimmerman betray you.

Sad, but it does make him look like the Mississippi Klansman that tried to murder me in '64, doesn't it.

 

[Monster]

Rick, your point is well taken and you have well considered the matter. And i know from both Ministry experience and from some Barna Group Church Surveys that, on the whole, only about two percent of the membership of any Church Family are living Christian lives and following Jesus but, that being true or not, it is my task as a Lay Preacher/Teacher to move those calling on the name of the Christ to move away from the World and closer to the LORD.

Being raised by an American Veteran and being a triple vet myself I know that I can deo nothing about the rebellious but, just as scripture instructs s about steel sharpening steel, I do my best to rub against my brothers and sisters, both the sharpen and to be sharpened. It is from that perspective that I often am found addressing what is called hopeless. A thing becomes hopeless, only when all hope is abandoned.

God bless.

This comes across as nothing less than sanctimonious and empty. You aren't sharpening a brother, you are demonizing a brother that disagrees with the conclusions you've drawn.

 

[Monster]

I'll go right to the root of your attempt to find a base for your sad and not Christ like attempt to generate a fight. Your incorrect use of the, now, triple highlighted irresponsibility. If a married man does any less than to make every effrort to feed, cloth and to otherwise render care for his family, he is then irresponsible... George is certainly not guilty of that.

If a man treads into a known area of danger from other, unkown, persons without the pistol or the revolver he is licensed to carry, he or she is an irresponsible fool. George did not do that, so, again, not guilty. George was hired or assigned the duty of protecting the neighborhood he was patrolling so, there, he is found faithful... e is guilty of that.

The evidense, leaked, to this point shows that the young man, not kid, Trevon, took George to the ground while he was placing one more phone call to the Police. The broken and bloody nose along with the open wounds to George's head on all side from being bashed into the concrete are all factors that must be taken into account when dealing with this matter.

You are making yourself look very racist in this matter by acting like a Klansman. I do wish you would not do that but rather follow your God.

Hyperbole much?

Calling Benjamin a racist (may as well include me, I agree with him) or referring to him in anyway as a Klansman is a new low-water mark for defamation on this board. That's saying something too.

With ridiculous comments like that, you diminish the power and worth of anything else you might have said. THAT is a "not Christ like attempt" NOT just to generate a fight but to tear down a brother with whom you disagree. Shame on you.

I hope you ruminate over this enough to regret your words, confess them for what they are, hateful and unworthy of a Pastor (Lay or otherwise; all in my insignificant opinion...yet offered happily) and seek his forgiveness.

 

[Benjamin]

I'll go right to the root of your attempt to find a base for your sad and not Christ like attempt to generate a fight.

Any disagreement with what you come to this board to dictate to others is un-Christ-like in your warpped and twisted arrogant mind and is looking for a fight.

You are making yourself look very racist in this matter by acting like a Klansman. I do wish you would not do that but rather follow your God.

Again, you are very warpped to come up with such conclusions and make such unfounded accusations! Get help.

 

[Monster]

I have yet to read a comment (here or on news media sites) that was against Zimmerman that relied only on facts to make their case. They have all been emotionally charged and showing their bias right out of the gate. Ben's post here is a case in point. The "clown" comments and the opinions of the thought process and motive of Zimmerman betray you.

If you read the transcript; the dispatcher tells Zimmerman "OK, we don't need you to do that" when asked if he was following the running suspect. He responded with "Ok".

Shouldn't that have ended the the confrontation?
And I'll grant that; I don't know all of the circumstances, I'm not familiar with the setting, I wasn't there. But, I have been in a similar situation. I listened to the "authority" (read dispatcher), did not pursue my "suspect" and most importantly, in the end, did not find myself in the dire straits Mr. Zimmerman is currently in.

OOPS! I edited to add a link to the transcript. This may not be safe for work... MODS, there are expletives in the transcript. If this should not be linked, take it down if needs be. I mean no offense in posting a link but it sheds light... http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

 

[th1bill]

If you read the transcript; the dispatcher tells Zimmerman "OK, we don't need you to do that" when asked if he was following the running suspect. He responded with "Ok".

Shouldn't that have ended the the confrontation?
And I'll grant that; I don't know all of the circumstances, I'm not familiar with the setting, I wasn't there. But, I have been in a similar situation. I listened to the "authority" (read dispatcher), did not pursue my "suspect" and most importantly, in the end, did not find myself in the dire straits Mr. Zimmerman is currently in.

OOPS! I edited to add a link to the transcript. This may not be safe for work... MODS, there are expletives in the transcript. If this should not be linked, take it down if needs be. I mean no offense in posting a link but it sheds light... http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

Monster,
first and foremost, this is not a matter to bow down into Hell to waller. Ben and you have both come here for that purpose and you are sinning. I did not call Ben anything. What i did was to note what his course was doing for and to him. You came into this, former conversation, with the matching chip on your sholder to te one on Ben's sholder. You need to read all of the string.

 

[Benjamin]

Well, that clown comment does not negate anything I said concerning being Zimmerman being responsible for the position he found himself in. My judgment of the matter is what caused the descriptive term and was the root of the matter before the emotion arose. And, you bet it was meant to be descriptive and has some emotion behind it, but again that in no way points to my argument being based on that emotion. I based it on as if it were my own son and this gun toting cops and robber wannabe which has shown himself to be a danger to society because of his incompetence in placing himself in that position and because of his sheer stupidity of placing himself in that position, which he obviously strongly desired to be in, but could not handle consequences of was to end up killing my son!

As for motive, it seems more than clear concerning his stringent efforts to be in this sort of quest that some type of motives were present beyond that of simply observing and reporting a crime (his irresponsibility in doing so and consequences aside) he was looking for trouble, disregarded being told to stay on his truck, then couldn’t handle the situation he got himself into without using deadly force to do so. That alone should be enough to show his motives were messed up and irresponsible. God help him if this “cowboy” was EVER heard saying he would like to physically harm to some burglar beforehand if it were my son that were killed!

As that father there is no way I would neglect to take into regards Zimmerman being clearly “irresponsible” - in several ways he irresponsibly placed himself in that position to go about his little dangerous quest adventures like it was some sort of ego building cop-n-robbers game of which he was VERY OBVIOUSLY NOT properly mentally or physically equipped for which he has now demonstrated completely beyond any doubt that if he actually ended up in some of the trouble he was continually looking for and hoping to find that he would miserably FAIL IN HIS RESPONSIBILTY WHICH HE “SO WILLINGLY” PLACED ON HIMSELF. That takes a moron and I call them as I see them. On top of this his poor mental judgment of challenging a teenager that physically could kick his butt and then, I have little doubt, in that it was anything more than a “overreaction” on his part, made in fear, because of being afraid to spill a little blood in the fight WHICH he started and irresponsibly put himself in the position of…and so THEN he pulled out his deadly force and ended the teenager’s life – his little quest which was laced in irresponsibility and caused a young man to die need to be looked at with a critical eye to see how this “misfortunate accident” got there and it is clear to me how it got there. Now he needs to be held accountable for irresponsibility.

 

[Benjamin]

Monster,
first and foremost, this is not a matter to bow down into Hell to waller. Ben and you have both come here for that purpose and you are sinning. I did not call Ben anything. What i did was to note what his course was doing for and to him. You came into this, former conversation, with the matching chip on your sholder to te one on Ben's sholder. You need to read all of the string.

You a SINNER!!! :tongue3: You going down and wallerin in depths of hell fer talkin to me like that in disagreeing fashion.

 

[Monster]

Monster,
first and foremost, this is not a matter to bow down into Hell to waller. Ben and you have both come here for that purpose and you are sinning. I did not call Ben anything. What i did was to note what his course was doing for and to him. You came into this, former conversation, with the matching chip on your sholder to te one on Ben's sholder. You need to read all of the string.

More sanctimony and nice dollop of self-righteousness ta' boot.

"Bow down to hell and waller" because I disagree with you about the circumstances surrounding the rights and wrongs of the ending of a young man's life? You're accusing me of bowing down to hell and by implication, satan? Once again, shame on you. I'm a sinner saved by grace, washed by the blood of the Lamb, a dwelling for the Holy Spirit and all thanks to redeeming work of Jesus Christ. I've never bowed down to hell or satan. I've sinned certainly and will do so on a daily basis and will joyfully be cleansed and daily made new in the redemptive cleansing of my Savior. You are the same, you claim the same. In that light, consider the work of your tongue (words in this context, in this thread), because right now, your ship seems to be running aground.

I've read the entire "string" I was engaged from post #3. I even responded to several points along the narrative. You're on a slippery slope. You're entitled to your OPINIONS about the Zimmerman case, as am I. Never forget that your OPINION is simply that. Claiming I have a chip on my shoulder is more hyperbole, it doesn't help "fix" what you've said and it doesn't change anything in the conversation. You've lost any hope of holding the high ground here.

You can play around with semantics all you want. You said what you did, it's all right there in your posts. Words mean things, words strung together have even greater meanings. There was clear implication and inference, both of which are easily parsed by reasonable people. The comparisons you made are unconscionable and unbecoming for a man of God.

 

[th1bill]

Well, that clown comment does not negate anything I said concerning being Zimmerman being responsible for the position he found himself in. My judgment of the matter is what caused the descriptive term and was the root of the matter before the emotion arose. And, you bet it was meant to be descriptive and has some emotion behind it, but again that in no way points to my argument being based on that emotion. I based it on as if it were my own son and this gun toting cops and robber wannabe which has shown himself to be a danger to society because of his incompetence in placing himself in that position and because of his sheer stupidity of placing himself in that position, which he obviously strongly desired to be in, but could not handle consequences of was to end up killing my son!

As for motive, it seems more than clear concerning his stringent efforts to be in this sort of quest that some type of motives were present beyond that of simply observing and reporting a crime (his irresponsibility in doing so and consequences aside) he was looking for trouble, disregarded being told to stay on his truck, then couldn’t handle the situation he got himself into without using deadly force to do so. That alone should be enough to show his motives were messed up and irresponsible. God help him if this “cowboy” was EVER heard saying he would like to physically harm to some burglar beforehand if it were my son that were killed!

As that father there is no way I would neglect to take into regards Zimmerman being clearly “irresponsible” - in several ways he irresponsibly placed himself in that position to go about his little dangerous quest adventures like it was some sort of ego building cop-n-robbers game of which he was VERY OBVIOUSLY NOT properly mentally or physically equipped for which he has now demonstrated completely beyond any doubt that if he actually ended up in some of the trouble he was continually looking for and hoping to find that he would miserably FAIL IN HIS RESPONSIBILTY WHICH HE “SO WILLINGLY” PLACED ON HIMSELF. That takes a moron and I call them as I see them. On top of this his poor mental judgment of challenging a teenager that physically could kick his butt and then, I have little doubt, in that it was anything more than a “overreaction” on his part, made in fear, because of being afraid to spill a little blood in the fight WHICH he started and irresponsibly put himself in the position of…and so THEN he pulled out his deadly force and ended the teenager’s life – his little quest which was laced in irresponsibility and caused a young man to die need to be looked at with a critical eye to see how this “misfortunate accident” got there and it is clear to me how it got there. Now he needs to be held accountable for irresponsibility.

Ben, you said it yourself, you have judged the man on your emotion and not on the Word of God! If you are a Christian and you take the cloak of a teacher by posting this for the youth of the web to read your judgment is the same Judgment of a Teacher i am liable for. You are held to the same standard that every Jew was under without Jesus when you do this and then, in the next post you think yourelf cute?

 

[Benjamin]

Ben, you said it yourself, you have judged the man on your emotion and not on the Word of God! If you are a Christian and you take the cloak of a teacher by posting this for the youth of the web to read your judgment is the same Judgment of a Teacher i am liable for. You are held to the same standard that every Jew was under without Jesus when you do this and then, in the next post you think yourelf cute?

You will be held responsible for your emotional false judgment as a teacher in this matter in which you have been unChrist-like and sinned while thinking of yourself as cute! You will be held to a higher standard than you have given!

:saint: