Which "camp" is really the defender of Divine Sovereignty?

[Skandelon]

Most here seem to assume that it is the Calvinistic believers who support true Divine Sovereignty, while the non-Calvinists somehow undermine it by insisting on man's free agency.

But, look at this from another perspective, if you will. Which is more impressive:

(1) The video gamer who fights through all undetermined actions of his opponents to accomplish victory, or (2) the video gamer who not only determines his avatar but the avatars of his opponents so as to accomplish victory.

Likewise, which of these views of God is really more "sovereign" and powerful?

God determining all things before they occur so as to accomplish his purpose.

OR

God accomplishing his ultimate purposes in, through, and despite all sinful and unholy things?

I think the latter seems much more sovereign, powerful and impressive...plus it doesn't impugn the holiness of God by making him the ultimate cause of sin.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Rom 9:15-18 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

That is the God I worship. In control and sovereign 100%, determining from eternity past all things.

I have serious questions for those who would not believe this. I have done battle with "open theism" before in some post-modern discussions. One college student (who claimed to be a believer) said God gave man a will and God then just reacts to what man does, to accomplish His purpose.

I wondered, in that scenario, who was really the "god"?

 

[Winman]

Most here seem to assume that it is the Calvinistic believers who support true Divine Sovereignty, while the non-Calvinists somehow undermine it by insisting on man's free agency.
But, look at this from another perspective, if you will. Which is more impressive:
(1) The video gamer who fights through all undetermined actions of his opponents to accomplish victory, or (2) the video gamer who not only determines his avatar but the avatars of his opponents so as to accomplish victory.
Likewise, which of these views of God is really more "sovereign" and powerful?

I think the latter seems much more sovereign, powerful and impressive...plus it doesn't impugn the holiness of God by making him the ultimate cause of sin.

Hey Skan, glad to see you back. I like your analogy, it's funny, but yesterday a post by a Cal/DoG gave me this same impession, that life is simply a video game with God at the joystick, so I got a chuckle when I saw this.
I agree with you, a player that can adapt and improvise would be far greater than one playing an absolutely scripted game.
I believe the scriptures do show God can allow free will and yet bring his purposes to pass. As Logos pointed out in another thread, we can see this in Esther 4:13-14.
Esther 4:13-14 Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews. For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, THEN SHALL THERE ENLARGEMENT AND DELIVERANCE ARISE TO THE JEWS FROM ANOTHER PLACE; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
If Esther refused to intercede for the Jews, God would find someone else who would. God was going to save the Jews no matter what he had to do.

 

[TomVols]

Comparing God to a video game player? Really? Come one. This is the heart of what troubles me about Arminians/Open Theists. They make God out to be less than God. Kinda of a God-lite - a caffeine free, diet God. Sorry...can't go there. I'll stick with the Bible.

 

[Jarthur001]

Most here seem to assume that it is the Calvinistic believers who support true Divine Sovereignty, while the non-Calvinists somehow undermine it by insisting on man's free agency.

Please don't limit this to this board. This is pretty much held world wide.

But, look at this from another perspective, if you will. Which is more impressive:

(1) The video gamer who fights through all undetermined actions of his opponents to accomplish victory, or (2) the video gamer who not only determines his avatar but the avatars of his opponents so as to accomplish victory.

This is a rather silly view which will fall apart after awhile. But if we allow this for now...Where is God? God would be the programer/designed/creator of the game, not the player. right?

Likewise, which of these views of God is really more "sovereign" and powerful?

The Programer

God determining all things before they occur so as to accomplish his purpose.

Yes...the Programer does.

OR

God accomplishing his ultimate purposes in, through, and despite all sinful and unholy things?

The Programer would...yes

I think the latter seems much more sovereign, powerful and impressive...

Yes, but don't forget the Programer.

plus it doesn't impugn the holiness of God by making him the ultimate cause of sin.

Which is a poor understanding of Calvinism.

 

[Benjamin]

Ahh, God must have determined that I post this:

When the subject is:

...plus it doesn't impugn the holiness of God by making him the ultimate cause of sin.

And a “Hard Determinist” answers by putting no conditions on his understanding of “all things”

That is the God I worship. In control and sovereign 100%, determining from eternity past all things.

What was his true answer? Is the Determinist slyly assigning moral evil responsibility on God with such an obvious omission of directly answering the question of the cause of sin?

I have serious questions for those who logically attribute the cause of evil to God. I have done battle against Determinists (claiming to be believers) who proclaim they had to be forced, kicking, screaming and clawing at the ground before they would come to the knowledge that they had no choice but to bow down, as one of the elect/pre-determined, and thereby must be saved. I have to wonder if the ones who promote, and do not refute the cultic heresy of assigning moral evil to God really ever perceived the love of Him or if they are simply admitting that there is a God under the excuse and demise of being forced. It reminds me of the devils that believe, yet tremble. (James 2:19)

The God I worship is Love and Truth, and I came to Him freely because of my love for His Truth that He IS Love and that He loved me first; not because He (the author of sin) pre-determined that I would be forced to. What is the Hard Determinist’ faith in anyway, that he had to be pre-chosen and forced by a despot god to believe and be saved?


James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

 

[Winman]

Please don't limit this to this board. This is pretty much held world wide.

So what? At one time most of the world believed it flat.

This is a rather silly view which will fall apart after awhile. But if we allow this for now...Where is God? God would be the programer/designed/creator of the game, not the player. right?

Regardless, he is a player too. It takes even less skill for the programmer to beat a game he scripted.

Which is a poor understanding of Calvinism.

It is impossible to understand the illogical. You can believe it, but you cannot truly understand it.

 

[Cypress]

Jarthur,
It is a common logical understanding of calvinism caused by it's founder and it's proponents. Here is a resource for those who are interested that examines where this understanding comes from.


http://www.apprehendingtruth.net/Is God the Author of Sin.pdf

 

[Winman]

Ahh, God must have determined that I post this:

When the subject is:

And a “Hard Determinist” answers by putting no conditions on his understanding of “all things”

What was his true answer? Is the Determinist slyly assigning moral evil responsibility on God with such an obvious omission of directly answering the question of the cause of sin?

I have serious questions for those who logically attribute the cause of evil to God. I have done battle against Determinists (claiming to be believers) who proclaim they had to be forced, kicking, screaming and clawing at the ground before they would come to the knowledge that they had no choice but to bow down, as one of the elect/pre-determined, and thereby must be saved. I have to wonder if the ones who promote, and do not refute the cultic heresy of assigning moral evil to God really ever perceived the love of Him or if they are simply admitting that there is a God under the excuse and demise of being forced. It reminds me of the devils that believe, yet tremble. (James 2:19)

The God I worship is Love and Truth, and I came to Him freely because of my love for His Truth that He IS Love and that He loved me first; not because He (the author of sin) pre-determined that I would be forced to. What is the Hard Determinist’ faith in anyway, that he had to be pre-chosen and forced by a despot god to believe and be saved?


James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Benjamin, glad you came back and hope you will continue to post. This is not flattery, but truth, I learn from your posts.

 

[convicted1]

"Thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, XVII)

God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, XXIII)

"Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, XVI)

"…the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, XVI)

If these quotes are really from the man, John Calvin, that is scaarrry

 

[Jarthur001]

Benjamin,

Welcome back. Please stay. Its good to have at least one thinker or the other side.

Cypress,

I downloaded your file and read about 4 pages. The quotes from Calvinist that I read, I agree with. The writer that wrote the debate points is grade school level arguments. If one desires a good laugh, please read it. If one wants to know Calvinism, just read the quotes.

Convicted....

You have given some of these quotes. You seem to disagree. Lets take a look.

"Thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, XVII)

Yes, God indeed uses sinners to bring about his will. in the OT he says he would bring down Gog and Magog, rather PULL them down to execute judgment. right? So you should not have a problem with this one.

God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, XXIII)

Yes..It was God that placed...arranged the garden into place. He PLACED or arranged it so that the tree was in the garden. Satan did not sneak in the garden, without God knowing. Could have God hindered Satan from coming to the garden? Did God have the power to stop Satan? God arranged it so that Satan came into the garden, and arranged the tree in the garden and knew that man would fall into sin.

So...God makes people sin?

No...God arranged the arena and mans will sins. (book of James)

"Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, XVI)

Dan 4..

"…the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, XVI)

Dan 4...

If these quotes are really from the man, John Calvin, that is scaarrry

Not at all. Would you rather have man in control?

 

[Amy.G]

Yes..It was God that placed...arranged the garden into place. He PLACED or arranged it so that the tree was in the garden. Satan did not sneak in the garden, without God knowing. Could have God hindered Satan from coming to the garden? Did God have the power to stop Satan? God arranged it so that Satan came into the garden, and arranged the tree in the garden and knew that man would fall into sin.

So...God makes people sin?

No...God arranged the arena and mans will sins. (book of James)

Who created man's will?

Would you rather have man in control?

If God is the cause of sin, how is that any different that if man were in control?

 

[Jarthur001]

Who created man's will?

Yes this is the point.

God, and the WILL caused Man to sin. right? Man WANTED his will over Gods will.

If God is the cause of sin, how is that any different that if man were in control?

Again, good point.


If man were in control, no one would be saved from that sin. Therefore, you would not have salvation.

 

[quantumfaith]

Benjamin, glad you came back and hope you will continue to post. This is not flattery, but truth, I learn from your posts.

I second that. Also so glad to see Skandelon back.

 

[Winman]

Yes this is the point.
God, and the WILL caused Man to sin. right? Man WANTED his will over Gods will.
Again, good point.
If man were in control, no one would be saved from that sin. Therefore, you would not have salvation.

Has it ever occured to any Cal/DoG that God placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil and commanding Adam and Eve not to eat of it created free will in man? If God had not done this, they would have had no choice, you cannot break the law when no law exists.

Nevertheless, this did not cause them to disobey, they were not created evil, they had no sin nature.

Some here say God could have put man in the garden without the possibility to sin. I believe this a fallacy, because that is what God would have done. God can only do that which is good and right, and therefore it must be good and right for man to have free will. Therefore it must be wrong to deny man free will.

Why is free will good and right? LOVE. God is love, and love requires free will and choice.

Now, heaven will be different, we will not have the ability to sin in heaven. But that is OK, because only those who have freely chosen to love God in this life will go there.

And really, that is what this life is about, making the choice of loving and obeying God or not.

 

[Cypress]

Jarthur,
Glad it brightened your day!:thumbsup:
Nothing you have proffered is superior to the material as presented. If it is grade school level to you, then your error is more astounding than if it required a higher level refutation.:love2::love2:

 

[slave 4 Christ]

QUOTE by Benjamin

I have serious questions for those who logically attribute the cause of evil to God. I have done battle against Determinists (claiming to be believers) who proclaim they had to be forced, kicking, screaming and clawing at the ground before they would come to the knowledge that they had no choice but to bow down, as one of the elect/pre-determined, and thereby must be saved.

Who has said this on BB?
I am not asking for your paraphrase of what they said?

I have to wonder if the ones who promote, and do not refute the cultic heresy of assigning moral evil to God really ever perceived the love of Him or if they are simply admitting that there is a God under the excuse and demise of being forced.

This statement is at best a simple emotional rant. But at worst you are accusing men by putting words in their mouths, and then using your words to condemn.
You should, in the interest of civil and useful debate, post the quote and then refute their position, not their person.

You seem to be well-spoken. You are encouraged to take the Holy Scripture and establish your position.

BTW. The DoG teaches God does not force us. He just makes us willing.

For you to say that those who hold to the DoG believe God forces men against their will is a mis-representation of this system of Theology.

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

The same Holy Spirit inspired writer who said the above, also said,

19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God...... 26If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Comparing God to a video game player? Really? Come one. This is the heart of what troubles me about Arminians/Open Theists. They make God out to be less than God. Kinda of a God-lite - a caffeine free, diet God. Sorry...can't go there. I'll stick with the Bible.

Tom, Id have to agree with you....& that is in itself a battle in the making. :tongue3::thumbs:

 

[TomVols]

Tom, Id have to agree with you....& that is in itself a battle in the making. :tongue3::thumbs:

:tongue3: Careful...agreeing with me will put you on the blacklist around here :smilewinkgrin:

 

[TomVols]

"Thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, XVII)

God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, XXIII)

"Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, XVI)

"…the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined." –John Calvin (Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, XVI)

If these quotes are really from the man, John Calvin, that is scaarrry

If? Did you not read these for yourself, in context? I suggest you do, and do that for anyone, be they Calvin, Wesley....whomever. Also, in the future, when you cite the Institutes, please give the full reference. Thanks!