Which Economic System?

[FR7 Baptist]

Please describe how your social democracy is going to reward the hardest worker better than capitalism.

Could you please detail this system for us?

Sure. Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I've been very busy with my full-time job and part-time college classes.

Here are a few things I'd like to do:

1. Require that corporations with over a certain number of employees have employee representation on their boards of directors.

2. Expand Medicare to cover all citizens and lawful permanent residents who are in the United States.

3. Heavily regulate banks and promote credit unions. Credit unions are co-operative institutions owned by their members and are superior to banks because they serve their members instead of shareholders. I'm a member of a credit union that's just for Southern Baptists in Florida.

4. We need to get rid of the illegal aliens. You do that by having Congress use their power under the Commerce Clause to require that businesses that engage in or use the instrumentalities of interstate commerce (meaning all businesses) to use the E-verify system. You also punish people who hire illegals by substantial fines for the first offense and mandatory jail time not to exceed one year for further offenses. If illegals can't get jobs many of them will self-deport.

 

[AresMan]

Social democracy.

In other words, a system in which no natural, individual, God-given rights are identified and protected, and in which the majority can enslave the minority.

 

[mandym]

Sure. Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I've been very busy with my full-time job and part-time college classes.

Here are a few things I'd like to do:

1. Require that corporations with over a certain number of employees have employee representation on their boards of directors.

2. Expand Medicare to cover all citizens and lawful permanent residents who are in the United States.

3. Heavily regulate banks and promote credit unions. Credit unions are co-operative institutions owned by their members and are superior to banks because they serve their members instead of shareholders. I'm a member of a credit union that's just for Southern Baptists in Florida.

4. We need to get rid of the illegal aliens. You do that by having Congress use their power under the Commerce Clause to require that businesses that engage in or use the instrumentalities of interstate commerce (meaning all businesses) to use the E-verify system. You also punish people who hire illegals by substantial fines for the first offense and mandatory jail time not to exceed one year for further offenses. If illegals can't get jobs many of them will self-deport.

This idea is antithetical to freedom.

 

[carpro]

This idea is antithetical to freedom.

It's also simplistic, anti-business and expensive and... it won't work.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Sure. Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I've been very busy with my full-time job and part-time college classes.

Here are a few things I'd like to do:

1. Require that corporations with over a certain number of employees have employee representation on their boards of directors.

2. Expand Medicare to cover all citizens and lawful permanent residents who are in the United States.

3. Heavily regulate banks and promote credit unions. Credit unions are co-operative institutions owned by their members and are superior to banks because they serve their members instead of shareholders. I'm a member of a credit union that's just for Southern Baptists in Florida.

4. We need to get rid of the illegal aliens. You do that by having Congress use their power under the Commerce Clause to require that businesses that engage in or use the instrumentalities of interstate commerce (meaning all businesses) to use the E-verify system. You also punish people who hire illegals by substantial fines for the first offense and mandatory jail time not to exceed one year for further offenses. If illegals can't get jobs many of them will self-deport.

Why do you think that government control is a key to worker success? Do you have any models to demonstrate how this system has helped the common worker?

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

I'd like to see some examples of outsourcing because of taxes and government regulation.

How about 3M?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bd9b4100-429b-11e0-8b34-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1FGF9fQYX

From the Link:

Mr Buckley, who has run the diversified manufacturer since 2005, said: “There is a sense among companies that this is a difficult place to do business. It is about regulation, taxation, seemingly anti-business policies in Washington, attitudes towards science.”

He added: “Politicians forget that business has choice. We’re not indentured servants and we will do business where it’s good and friendly. If it’s hostile, incrementally, things will slip away. We’ve got a real choice between manufacturing in Canada and Mexico – which tend to be pro-business – or America.”

 

[carpro]

How about 3M?

QUOTE]

How about 'em?

I have seen nothing that shows that 3m has outsourced purely because of taxes and excess regulation.

BYW Your source requires registration. I never register for a source.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Sorry about the link. The link I clicked on did not require registration. I agree with you and would not register.

It is a story in the Financial Times this morning and the quotes I provided are from the 3M CEO George Buckley explaining why they and other companies outsource.

Besides taxes and regulations he also lists some other reasons like inability to get trained phd level employees and difficulty getting visas for foreign workers he would like to bring to the United States.

Let me see if I can get this shortcut to work.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bd9b4100-429b-11e0-8b34-00144feabdc0.html

No, sorry, for some reason when I copy and paste the link it requires registration. The financial times also includes a copywrite line that asks not to copy and paste their articles so I will respect their wishes.

 

[carpro]

Actually, the tax angle is just a way for democrats to demonize businesses for outsourcing. After all, they're avoiding taxes, right? Makes 'em evil. Right?

The facts are something else altogether. The reason for outsourcing is almost exclusively to lower the cost of production. Since the single largest cost of production is labor, the reason most companies outsource is to reduce labor cost. Sometimes they even pay higher taxes for the privilege.

There can be many other reasons for outsourcing and those reasons are readily available with just a little research. Lower taxes is almost never one of them.

But, in 3M's case, he is saying that , if Obama gets his way, taxes and excess government interference will become a factor. Maybe even one of the main ones.

But, as of now, it is not.

 

[mandym]

Actually, the tax angle is just a way for democrats to demonize businesses for outsourcing. After all, they're avoiding taxes, right? Makes 'em evil. Right?

The facts are something else altogether. The reason for outsourcing is almost exclusively to lower the cost of production. Since the single largest cost of production is labor, the reason most companies outsource is to reduce labor cost. Sometimes they even pay higher taxes for the privilege.

There can be many other reasons for outsourcing and those reasons are readily available with just a little research. Lower taxes is almost never one of them.

But, in 3M's case, he is saying that , if Obama gets his way, taxes and excess government interference will become a factor. Maybe even one of the main ones.

But, as of now, it is not.

Taxes do play a big part in this. It is not the only part but it is significant. And it is a legitimate reason regardless of how the left works it. Should American companies not be free to do business where ever they want? Why would anyone want to inhibit that freedom?

 

[rbell]

Social democracy.

Paul, I'm going to call 'em as I see 'em: You want a socialist/communist state, but you're not willing to say it out loud, so you "dress it up."

1. Require that corporations with over a certain number of employees have employee representation on their boards of directors. The government ultimately controls the actual process of manufacturing--this gets dangerously close to fascism--an even more abject failure than socialism.

2. Expand Medicare to cover all citizens and lawful permanent residents who are in the United States. Unsustainable and irresponsible. My healthcare is my responsibility, not yours. And vice-versa. BTW...take some time to read about how cancer patients in England can't get treatment due to rationing. That's what you want???

3. Heavily regulate banks and promote credit unions. Credit unions are co-operative institutions owned by their members and are superior to banks because they serve their members instead of shareholders. I'm a member of a credit union that's just for Southern Baptists in Florida. So now, it's the government's job to help decide what businesses succeed and fail? More of an aspect of communism. Let me check with USSR, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Romania, Poland, Albania, Czecholslovakia...oh wait; never mind. Epic fail.

4. We need to get rid of the illegal aliens. You do that by having Congress use their power under the Commerce Clause to require that businesses that engage in or use the instrumentalities of interstate commerce (meaning all businesses) to use the E-verify system. You also punish people who hire illegals by substantial fines for the first offense and mandatory jail time not to exceed one year for further offenses. If illegals can't get jobs many of them will self-deport. The "punish employers of illegals" idea I can get behind fully. I doubt they will self-deport.

More refutations of Paul's idea below:

In other words, a system in which no natural, individual, God-given rights are identified and protected, and in which the majority can enslave the minority.

Well, you've pretty much hit one of the several achille's heels of Socialism.

This idea is antithetical to freedom.

And you've hit another one!

 

[rbell]

>Please describe how your social democracy is going to reward the hardest worker better than capitalism.

Seems to me under capitalism the people with the hardest and nastiest jobs get the lowest pay.

Spoken like a true union apologist. You guys are always bothered when the market speaks, and you disagree with it. Your solution? Extort what you think is the "right price" from employers. And you don't mind doing it via strike, government intervention, or whatever.

>>Seems to me under capitalism the people with the hardest and nastiest jobs get the lowest pay.


>Define hardest? And why do you think that is?

Physically demanding, dangerous, and uncomfortable. Because they are not smart enough to climb up the food chain. Some are born into slavery. It has been that way for the 6000 years we know about.

Can one possibly find a more striking example of abject bigotry on the BB?

All that's needed is the insertion of a particular race, and we would have as textbook a definition of "racism" as can possibly exist.

"You're too stupid to acheive anything. God messed up, and made you a loser. You are a bottom-feeder, and thankfully shall remain there, so that us 'winners' can tread upon you on our way to the top."

I cannot imagine a more unChristlike, disgusting, revolting post. I would hope that all Christians could unite and categorically reject such a satanic notion. It amazes me that anyone could hold such a view, and not be consumed with guilt for doing so. I felt guilty even paraphrasing such trash, and I don't hold to this view in the least.

The Lord rebuke you, billwald, for such a vile perversion of God's truth.

 

[carpro]

Taxes do play a big part in this. It is not the only part but it is significant.

I'd like some proof.

 

[mandym]

I'd like some proof.

Since you couldn't have asked nicer here you go:

Conclusion

What, then, are the policy prescriptions we should consider? The fear driving this emotional reaction to outsourcing and the current false perception of job loss is leading some politicians to call for policy "solutions" to prevent further harm. However, many of their proposals are forms of trade isolationism that simply will not work.

Instead of increasing the minimum wage, extending unemployment, or increasing other regulations to prevent outsourcing, we should focus on policies that create jobs like lowering the burden of regulation, attacking frivolous lawsuits through tort reform, and implementing pro-growth tax policies. These are the types of policies that will help us to see the payroll job gains everyone has been waiting for catch up with the rest of the economy.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Lecture/Whats-Really-Happening-with-Jobs-and-Outsourcing

A Long Way to Go

Despite the overwhelming benefits of free trade, in the United States, challenges to it multiply like bacteria in a warm Petri dish. To overcome those challenges, the U.S. should guard against high corporate tax rates, expensive and inefficient job training and re-training programs, costly and counterproductive regulations, and other misguided policies that undermine the competitiveness of American workers and firms. These burdens, not free trade, are the real threats to our nation’s economy.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/06/The-Economy-Hits-Home-International-Trade

Cap and Tax Top Ten List

1. Cap and Trade Is a Massive Energy Tax

2. It Will Not Make a Substantive Impact on the Environment

3. It Will Kill Jobs

4. It Will Cause Electricity Bills and Gas Prices to Sharply Increase

5. It Will Outsource Manufacturing Jobs and Hurt Free Trade

6. It Will Make You Choose Between Energy, Groceries, Clothing, and Haircuts

7. It Will Be Highly Susceptible to Fraud and Corruption

8. It Will Hurt Senior Citizens, the Poor, and the Unemployed the Worst

9. It Will Cost American Families Over $3,000 a Year

10. President Obama Admitted "Electricity Rates Would Necessarily Skyrocket" Under a Cap-and-Trade Program (January 2008)

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Fa...ing-Tax-Kills-More-Jobs-and-Kills-the-Economy

I want you to see why, and how, high US corporate tax rates cause outsourcing of US jobs, and deny the Federal Govt of much needed tax revenue. In the US, the total average corporate tax rate is 39.21% ( Federal and State average), and in the 31 OECD nations has an average of 24.2%, according to The Heritage Foundation. US corporations are at a serious competitive advantage because of the 15% higher US rates.

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/181/485/How_The_Federal_Government_Causes_Outsourcing.html

 

[InTheLight]

Originally Posted by mandym
Taxes do play a big part in this. It is not the only part but it is significant.

I'd like some proof.

I'd say that the taxes that would play a part in it would be FICA and Medicare taxes, which would be a tax related to labor costs, not corporate taxes.

The reason for outsourcing is almost exclusively to lower the cost of production. Since the single largest cost of production is labor, the reason most companies outsource is to reduce labor cost.

Agreed, and FICA and Medicare play a big role in labor costs. As does providing health care and 401k plans (with company match contributions.) Again, more labor costs.

 

[billwald]

>All that's needed is the insertion of a particular race, and we would have as textbook a definition of "racism" as can possibly exist.

AS I HAVE EXPLAINED, in the US culture matters, not race. The people on the bottom have learned to be happy living as a part of the American trash culture. For an illustration and example of the American trash culture, watch an hour of "Judge Judy." One can see that all races are part of our trash culture.

 

[InTheLight]

AS I HAVE EXPLAINED, in the US culture matters, not race. The people on the bottom have learned to be happy living as a part of the American trash culture. For an illustration and example of the American trash culture, watch an hour of "Judge Judy." One can see that all races are part of our trash culture.

We've got another one for the filter list.

Click User CP
Click Edit Ignore List
Add Member to Your List: billwald
Click OKAY
Click SAVE CHANGES

Ahhh...much better.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Seems to me under capitalism the people with the hardest and nastiest jobs get the lowest pay.

Well, seems to me that is not the case Bill. I guess that is how you define the hardest and nastiest.

When I was running a sewage treatment plant I had to hire a diver once to work on submerged machinery. I had to pay him more per hour than I make in a week. Of course he had to put on a wet suit and jump into a pit of sewage. That is about as hard and nasty as I can think of.

What do plumbers make on average? According to PayScale.com its between 17.49 and 26.29 nation wide. How about a coal miner? 16.38 – 24.55.

Now I work in a plant that makes electric motors. Our employees work hard, but it’s not as hard or nasty as those other jobs. They make 9.00 – 12.00 an hour.

There are still jobs where people with a minimum of education can make a good living if they are willing to work hard and work dirty, watch “dirty jobs” sometimes. Under our current system if you are willing to work hard, work overtime, work in dangerous or dirty conditions, you can still make a lot of money.

 

[carpro]

Since you couldn't have asked nicer here you go:

Most of your sources do not prove your point.

I'll stick with my assertion that taxes play no significant part in being a cause of outsourcing, even though the U.S. levies one of the highest corporate taxes in the world.



http://www.outsourcing.com/content.asp?page=01b/articles/intelligence/oi_top_ten_survey.html

Top Ten Outsourcing Survey
Executive Survey: The Outsourcing Institute's Annual Survey of Outsourcing End Users

Top 10 Reasons Companies Outsource

1. Reduce and control operating costs
2. Improve company focus
3. Gain access to world-class capabilities
4. Free internal resources for other purposes
5. Resources are not available internally
6. Accelerate reengineering benefits
7. Function difficult to manage/out of control
8. Make capital funds available
9. Share risks
10. Cash infusion

 

[mandym]

Most of your sources do not prove your point.

I'll stick with my assertion that taxes play no significant part in being a cause of outsourcing, even though the U.S. levies one of the highest corporate taxes in the world.



http://www.outsourcing.com/content.asp?page=01b/articles/intelligence/oi_top_ten_survey.html

Top Ten Outsourcing Survey
Executive Survey: The Outsourcing Institute's Annual Survey of Outsourcing End Users

Top 10 Reasons Companies Outsource

1. Reduce and control operating costs
2. Improve company focus
3. Gain access to world-class capabilities
4. Free internal resources for other purposes
5. Resources are not available internally
6. Accelerate reengineering benefits
7. Function difficult to manage/out of control
8. Make capital funds available
9. Share risks
10. Cash infusion

Of course they do. Not sure how you can reach that conclusion.