Which gifts are for today?

[Ray Berrian]

Ed,

Yes, I am glad you brought this issue to our attention. It was unintentional as to what I thought you said.

In your last post where does it say in the N.T. that Titus, Apollos and Ephaphrodiutus did not see the Lord and I don't think I recall these men being called or chronicled as being apostles.

Did I miss something?

 

[EdSutton]

Ray, I wrote:
" Apollos will be spoken of, IMO, in a collective sense with Paul as 'apostles'. (I Cor. 4:6,9-10 He is also listed with Paul and Cephas, clearly apostles, in I Cor. 3. Timothy, and Titus, IMO, based on some other Scriptures and Epaphroditus, specifically ("your apostle") are some others referred to as well. All these were probably a direct result of Paul's ministry. They would not "...have seen the Lord...", in the sense Paul uses, according to the Biblical record. "

I will start with Apollos: In I Cor.4:6, Paul speaks of 'transferring 'things in a figure' to himself and Apollos. Then he starts a back and forth usage of we/us and you through verse 13. of the same chapter using we or us in v. 6, 8 twice, 9 twice, 10- 3 times, 11, 12 three times (once 'our'), and 13 twice. In verse 9, Paul states, "For I think that God has set forth us, the apostles, last, as it were...". The you vs. we/us analogy has not changed from verse 6. Why would "us, the apostles" be viewed any differently than "myself and Apollos...us..." and this continuation for the rest of the seven verses. For that matter, why would the 'us' continuation of Paul, Apollos, Cephas of I Cor. 3:22-4:1 likewise be seen differently, and they are there identified as 'ministers', the same identification given in 3:5 where Paul and Apollos are mentioned together?

I added that Apollos was also twice spoken of as one of three with Paul and Cephas, both of whom were clearly apostles, as well. The last part, alone, proves little, but I would suggest it does tend to 'add weight' to the other Scriptures in this contention.

Timothy, likewise is identified in I Thes. 1:1 and 2:6 as an apostle, by the we/us vs. you again, as is Silas (Silvanius).

I may have confused Titus with Silas, however.

Epaphroditus is actually easier to differentiate as 'an apostle'. He is named twice in Scripture, in Phil'p 2:25, and 4:18. Eph. 2:25 identifies him as "your apostle". Although the KJV renders this as 'messenger', the Wycliffe NT, Young's (YLT) and Amplified do render this correctly as 'apostle'.
The Greek word is "'apos'tolos", from which we get the word rendered in English as 'apostle', whose etymology is but little changed from the Greek, to the Late Latin, to the old French and Old English, to Modern English. IT means one sent on a mission, or one sent with a commission. The two T/R that I have access to online, Stephanus (1550); Scrivener (1894); and W/H (1881) all have exactly the same word here which is "'apos'tolos", and is the same word used of Paul, and the Twelve. I could perhaps offer more, but I will not take the time to do that this evening, as my bride is not feeling well, and I'm going to see about her in a few.
I did not say that the N.T. said the four above did not see the Lord, exactly. What I said exactly was:

"All these were probably a direct result of Paul's ministry. They would not "...have seen the Lord...", in the sense Paul uses, according to the Biblical record. "

This sentence did not refer to Apollos, although he, as far as I know, is not said to have seen the Lord, either. Paul, writing about the Death and resurrection of Jesus in I Cor. 15:1-8 mentions that the resurrected Lord was 'seen', and "last of all, He was seen of me..." I find no mention of any one else 'seeing the Lord' save John on Patmos and his heavenly vision, some 25-35 years after this. I assume that what Paul said was true when he wrote it. Apollos was said to know only the 'baptism of John' at the time of Paul's third missionary journey. As Timothy, definitely, and Titus and Epaphroditus, probably were Paul's own converts, it seems to me unlikely that they would have had either reason or opportunity to see the Lord directly, during his ministry, and especially after the resurrection. It had been 30 years, since that time, in the case of the mention of Epaphroditus, and over 20 with Apollos and Titus. This may not be 'slam-dunk' but at least makes sense, IMO.
Outa here, for now!
In His grace,
Ed

 

[larry9179]

I want to go back to Hope's reply on the first page of this thread.

The five-fold (really six-fold since we're all ministers) ministry is not a spiritual gift. These are administrative gifts from Christ to the Church for the express purpose of equipping the Church for ministry.

The spiritual gifts mentioned by Paul are all available today, but Paul's list is not an exhaustable one. Anything we can do, and do well, is a gift from God. If you can organize an office - it's a gift from God. If you can operate a vehicle, it's a gift from God. If you can pray in tongues while driving a car on the way to the office, it's a gift from God. Even martyrdom, the gift you can only use one time, is a gift available today. That gift made it possible for Rachel Scott to confess her faith in Christ just before she was slain at Columbine High School.

The Holy Spirit is very much active in affairs today, and if we're not witnessing gifts and miracles, it's because we're not making ourselves available. He's not going to waste His resources.

 

[Ray Berrian]

larry9179,

I must pick up on one thing that you said that I think needs to be preached often. The Holy Spirit is very actively working in the lives of the saved and on the minds and lives of those who are outside of Christ. He has no end of ways in which He used us, the people of God, to touch the hearts of lost people. While we sleep at night He is busy on the other side of this earth making His truth evident to human beings.

Too many Christians hide behind their faith and their churches' stained glass windows in stead of actively witness about what Jesus has done in their lives.

The Lord must be totally grieved or worse when He sees His people trying to fit into this world system instead of explaining to their acquaintances about God's plan for their salvation.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Edsutton,

I find no warrant to include your list of names as official apostles of Jesus Christ merely because they are spoken about in connection with Peter and Paul.

Rev. D.B. Cameron in his volume, "Expostion of the Epistle to the Hebrews" Presbyterian Printing and Publishing Company, LTD., Toronto, Canada, Volume I, p. 497 says,

'The apostles were immediately appointed by Christ, they received the promise of the Spirit to enable them in their official capacity to teach infallible truth, they were endowed with power to work miracles in the name of Christ, and to confer the Holy Ghost by the impostion of their hands. Each of them saw Christ personally. They were appointed to be witnesses of His death, resurrection, and ascension; and to organize the church. They had no succesors in office, because it was not necessary that they should. No one can be an apostle unless the Lord visibly appears to him to appoint him, and unless he endows him with the apostolic qualifications of inspiration, power of working miracles, and speaking in tongues which he has not learned.'

I am saying that the 12 apostles had a unique ministry in giving most of the N.T. books of the Bible for our guidance. No human being since that first century has the authority to write inspired Scripture since 95 A.D. and the death of the Apostle John.

Even if people have a vision of the Lord in our era of time does not give that one the right to write new books of the Bible.

Revelation 22:18 is correct; no one can write new and inspired truth--they are not doing the Lord a favor. The Apostolate has spoken once for all.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Rev. Cameron wrote his works in 1889--more than a few years ago.

 

[EdSutton]

larry9179, With all due respect, I do not see your point. It seems to me that you are saying that the list in Eph.4 are not properly 'spiritual gifts', but then follow two sentences later that the spiritual gifts mentioned by Paul are all available today, and that for that matter anything we do well is a spiritual gift. Uh, every time I checked (Well, aside from the one time I sat in on one seminary class on Ephesians as an 'invited' visitor when I was a college student 37 years ago, and made an observation that Paul was actually the author of Ephesians because it actually said that, which caused the professor, Dr. XYZ, to ask to my host that I not be invited back), Paul is said to be the author of Ephesians, notwithstanding the opinion of Dr. XYZ. He is likewise, as far as I can tell, the author of Romans and I Corinthians as well, although Tertius is said to actually have written Romans, and someone else is implied to have written I Cor. I do disagree with the assignation of any ability as a 'spiritual gift', absent Scripture actually saying so. You, in fairness, do not make this specific claim here, but you do imply it. I disagree. There are certainly talents and opportunities galore; they just technically are not spiritual gifts. I am refering to what are designated in Scripture as 'charis' or 'charismata'- the gift(s) of grace. I would agree that I have better than average ability to do certain things. Driving happens to be one, and I have made my living for over 10 years driving a taxi, although I am not doing it at this minute. I consider this a talent, and I hope to consider it an opportunity. But it is not one of the charismata. I likewise am sure that I have the gift of teacher. That gift extends only to the things of Scripture, in my case. It does not translate to the secular world. In this case, the gift is different from a talent. I believe this is consistent with Scripture, as well. Two of my Sunday School teachers that I have had in the last few years never made it to high school, let alone graduated or went to college. One of them for some years taught a school teacher who had close to a Ph.D. The School teacher has never taught Sunday School in all this time, now well over 30 years, save as a substitute one or two years for the 11-12 year old boys, when there was no one else available or willing. He was and still is one of the most valuable members of our church in many other ways, with talents I could only dream of in many. You are correct in that we miss a lot of opportunity to serve and do the work of the Lord. And it shows, too often. We should take every opportunity to do the Spirit's leading. But I do not believe that includes intruding on His realm, in the process.
In His grace,
Ed