Which is first? Resurrection or judgement?

[The Biblicist]

WHICH IS FIRST? RESURRECTION OR JUDGEMENT?​

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done IN HIS BODY, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

In order to "stand" before the Lord and be judged for those things done "in the body" the resurrection must occur first. The writer of Hebrews places the resurrection before the judgement:

"and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." - Heb. 6:2

However, the "righteous" shall be resurrected in an incorruptible and immortal body incapable of death BEFORE the judgement occurs (1 Cor. 15:52-57). Victory over death occurs at the resurrection for the righteous. Hence, standing before the judgement seat cannot possibly be to determine entrance in to heaven or rejection into the "second DEATH." However, if justification were by works then the resurrection would have to occur AFTER the judgement.

Truth is that the believer has already "passed from death unto life" (Jn. 5:24) at the point of faith in Christ and the resurrection merely manifests who the true believers are from the false professors.

So, why do those already in sinless glorified bodies stand before the judgement seat in regard to "the things done in" their bodies if it does not determine the kind of resurrection body and entrance into heaven? They stand there to determine their REWARDS IN HEAVEN:

1 Cor. 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every MAN'S WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall TRY EVERY MAN'S WORK of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD.
15 If any MAN'S WORK shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.

The materials listed are representative of "what sort" of works performed "in his body" are brought before judgement of believers. Fire destroys "wood, hay and stubble" and thus judges it as "bad" works. However, even if all the works performed "in his body" were judged as bad works, he would not receive rewards but "he himself shall be saved." Why? Because obtaining a glorified body and entrance into heaven is secured by the works done in Christ's body, but not by works done in his body. Only REWARDS in heaven are secured or lost by works done in his body. Before he stands before God he is already in a glorified body that can never suffer death - physical, spiritual or eternal death:

1 Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on IMMORTALITY.
54 So WHEN this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings The Biblicist,

I was interested in the title of your thread, but I have come to a different understanding. Initially I will only consider a few Scriptures. Firstly I would like to simply reaffirm 2 Corinthians 5:10 that you quoted, but you then gave a different exposition to a simple acceptance of what this verse says.
2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV): 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Daniel 12:2-3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
The first thing to note is that it is not all of mankind that is raised, but here those raised are termed “many”. Prior to them being raised, it states that they were “sleeping in the dust of the earth”. That is, they had suffered the sentence of death pronounced upon Adam after he had sinned, “dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return”. Although Daniel 12:2-3 does not directly speak of judgement, it is implied as it speaks of some coming forth “to everlasting life”, not with everlasting life, while others “to shame and everlasting contempt”. Those that receive everlasting life are also described as the “wise” and “they that turn many to righteousness”.

The Apostle Paul, near the end of his life, speaks of Jesus as the Judge, and his anticipated reward:
2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick (living) and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:7-8 (KJV): 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul clearly states that Jesus will judge the living and dead at his appearing. Paul also states that in that day he will also stand before Jesus, the righteous judge and receive “a crown of righteousness”, and this implies forgiveness of sins and the granting of immortal life.

The teaching of the above then is that Jesus will return and raise many of the dead. He will then judge these, and give everlasting life to the faithful, such as Paul, and reject the wicked, who will suffer the second death. So in response to your title, Resurrection first, Judgement second, the granting of everlasting life or rejection third.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings The Biblicist,

I was interested in the title of your thread, but I have come to a different understanding. Initially I will only consider a few Scriptures. Firstly I would like to simply reaffirm 2 Corinthians 5:10 that you quoted, but you then gave a different exposition to a simple acceptance of what this verse says.
2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV): 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Daniel 12:2-3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
The first thing to note is that it is not all of mankind that is raised, but here those raised are termed “many”. Prior to them being raised, it states that they were “sleeping in the dust of the earth”. That is, they had suffered the sentence of death pronounced upon Adam after he had sinned, “dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return”. Although Daniel 12:2-3 does not directly speak of judgement, it is implied as it speaks of some coming forth “to everlasting life”, not with everlasting life, while others “to shame and everlasting contempt”. Those that receive everlasting life are also described as the “wise” and “they that turn many to righteousness”.

The Apostle Paul, near the end of his life, speaks of Jesus as the Judge, and his anticipated reward:
2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick (living) and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Timothy 4:7-8 (KJV): 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul clearly states that Jesus will judge the living and dead at his appearing. Paul also states that in that day he will also stand before Jesus, the righteous judge and receive “a crown of righteousness”, and this implies forgiveness of sins and the granting of immortal life.

The teaching of the above then is that Jesus will return and raise many of the dead. He will then judge these, and give everlasting life to the faithful, such as Paul, and reject the wicked, who will suffer the second death. So in response to your title, Resurrection first, Judgement second, the granting of everlasting life or rejection third.

Kind regards
Trevor

You are confusing the physical body with the immaterial spirit of man, as it is only the body that returns to dust of the earth and rests, whereas the spirit returns to the Lord. The immaterial spirit of the the saved has eternal life at the moment of new birth of the spirit (Jn. 3:6; 5:24 and shalll NEVER DIE (Jn. 11:26 "believest thou this?"). However, eternal life or the body putting on immortality of the body is not until the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:55-56 "when....then..").

So the order is resurrection glorification of the body for the saints FIRST, then standing before Christ SECOND in that resurrected immortal (everlasting life) body. Of course I am speaking of the "righteous" as they are raised "first" - 1 Thes. 4:16-17; Rev. 20:4-7.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings The Biblicist,

You are confusing the physical body with the immaterial spirit of man, as it is only the body that returns to dust of the earth and rests, whereas the spirit returns to the Lord. The immaterial spirit of the the saved has eternal life at the moment of new birth of the spirit (Jn. 3:6; 5:24 and shalll NEVER DIE (Jn. 11:26 "believest thou this?" ). However, eternal life or the body putting on immortality of the body is not until the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:55-56 "when....then..").

So the order is resurrection glorification of the body for the saints FIRST, then standing before Christ SECOND in that resurrected immortal (everlasting life) body. Of course I am speaking of the "righteous" as they are raised "first" - 1 Thes. 4:16-17; Rev. 20:4-7.

Both this Post and your original Post is interspersed with various doctrines that you espouse. I do not accept most of these and thus I retain the sequence that I stated in my previous Post. For example I consider Daniel 12:2-3 teaches that man is not conscious in death, but his thoughts cease at death, and his body returns to the dust. He “sleeps in the dust of the earth” and it is only at the resurrection that he “awakes”. I also believe the faithful will stand before the judgement seat of Christ before they are given immortality.

Romans 14:10-12 (KJV): 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
This is a simple and clear statement of the judgement seat of Christ and this is different to your Posts. You seem to be claiming that the faithful are given immortal life before this judgement seat. You are thus claiming that they are in some way rewarded before they are raised from the dead and judged at the return of Jesus. The sequence that I believe is resurrection, judgement, given immortality or rejected.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Hark]

For example I consider Daniel 12:2-3 teaches that man is not conscious in death, but his thoughts cease at death, and his body returns to the dust. He “sleeps in the dust of the earth” and it is only at the resurrection that he “awakes”. I also believe the faithful will stand before the judgement seat of Christ before they are given immortality.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

You could consider that verses 2 & 3 are in respect to the living in verse 1 as they would see those in the grave as asleep that would "awake" from their point of view.

How do you explain the parable that Jesus has given regarding the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus whom was in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise?

Romans 14:10-12 (KJV): 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

This is a simple and clear statement of the judgement seat of Christ and this is different to your Posts.

God has to judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture event ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) as the event can be referred to as separating the sheep from the goats in His House, leaving the vessels unto dishonour behind;

Those that are vessels unto dishonour in His House that are not alive at His appearing as the Bridegroom, but are in the grave, shall remain in the grave to be received at a later time as their resurrection have not taken place yet.

There will be vessels unto honour in His House and then there will be vessels unto dishonour in His House which would be everlasting contempt as per Daniel 12:1-3. Everlasting contempt does not necessarily mean the final judgment coming from the Great White Throne in the end.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Reads to me that all shall be made alive but in their own order, depending on how they shall be received as a vessel unto honour or as a vessel unto dishonour as that shall testify of "when" they will be received.

 

[PreachTony]

For example I consider Daniel 12:2-3 teaches that man is not conscious in death, but his thoughts cease at death, and his body returns to the dust. He “sleeps in the dust of the earth” and it is only at the resurrection that he “awakes”. I also believe the faithful will stand before the judgement seat of Christ before they are given immortality.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

According to Paul, being absent from the body is to present with the Lord. But if our consciousness ceases upon death, only to be reawakened upon resurrection, then Paul's statement is false.

Romans 14:10-12 (KJV): 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
This is a simple and clear statement of the judgement seat of Christ and this is different to your Posts. You seem to be claiming that the faithful are given immortal life before this judgement seat. You are thus claiming that they are in some way rewarded before they are raised from the dead and judged at the return of Jesus. The sequence that I believe is resurrection, judgement, given immortality or rejected.

1 Corinthians 15 goes into great detail about the resurrection. Per those verse, Paul writes that the dead shall be raised incorruptible. If our bodies are raised to incorruptibility in the resurrection, then we will have put on immortality at that time. In your order of event, the resurrection comes before the judgment, and per Paul we are resurrected to incorruptibility...I'd have to say that immortality comes prior to judgment.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

The following parable gives the same sequence as I have previously mentioned, the return of Jesus, and the necessity for many of Jesus’ servants - resurrection or awakening from the sleep of death. Then judgement, for the faithful who have been diligent in the Master’s service - the granting of entering into the joy of their Lord – that is everlasting life in the kingdom of God upon the earth, and for the slothful or wicked – rejection.
Matthew 25:14-30 (KJV): 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The above parable also cuts across your concepts and objection to a works-based faith. I suggest you have altered the sequence because of your views on this concept. Jesus teaches responsibility and accountability based upon and motivated by a true understanding of the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ. The following helps to explain the works of the Law, and contrasts the works of faith motivated by love:
Galatians 5:5-6 (KJV): 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Hark and PreachTony,

I appreciate your responses, but I am not sure if I want to fully discuss the immortality of the soul and going to heaven and hell at death. I do not believe in these concepts, but believe in returning to the dust at death and waiting for the resurrection at the return of Christ One reason why I am not enthusiastic about discussing this is that I have yet to fully work out or understand some of the passages that I would consider “difficult” and this will be evident from some aspects of my responses below.

You could consider that verses 2 & 3 are in respect to the living in verse 1 as they would see those in the grave as asleep that would "awake" from their point of view.

I am unsure of what you are suggesting here.

How do you explain the parable that Jesus has given regarding the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus whom was in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise?

My only explanation is that Jesus was speaking a parable based upon some of the false ideas held by the Pharisees. Towards the end of his discourse, Jesus speaks of the resurrection and the fact that Lazarus is part of the parable, I believe that Jesus is anticipating the resurrection of Lazarus. This parable does not line up with the Catholic and Protestant views of the immortal soul and going to heaven and hell at death.

God has to judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture event ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) as the event can be referred to as separating the sheep from the goats in His House, leaving the vessels unto dishonour behind;

Those that are vessels unto dishonour in His House that are not alive at His appearing as the Bridegroom, but are in the grave, shall remain in the grave to be received at a later time as their resurrection have not taken place yet.

There will be vessels unto honour in His House and then there will be vessels unto dishonour in His House which would be everlasting contempt as per Daniel 12:1-3. Everlasting contempt does not necessarily mean the final judgment coming from the Great White Throne in the end.

We have a different view of these things, and part of our difference is I do not believe in the “rapture”. I believe that His House will comprise faithful and unfaithful and they will be judged at the same time.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Reads to me that all shall be made alive but in their own order, depending on how they shall be received as a vessel unto honour or as a vessel unto dishonour as that shall testify of "when" they will be received.

The “order” here is the distinction between the time of the resurrection of Christ and they that are Christ’s – they shall be resurrected at Christ’s coming.

According to Paul, being absent from the body is to present with the Lord. But if our consciousness ceases upon death, only to be reawakened upon resurrection, then Paul's statement is false.

I have a different view of this. I do not think Paul is talking about his immortal soul going to Jesus at death. He is weighing up whether to die and thus leave this present body and the work that he was involved with. In contrast to die would mean that at his resurrection he would be present with the Lord. Paul clearly states his expectations when he departed in the following:
2 Timothy 4:6-8 (KJV): 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1 Corinthians 15 goes into great detail about the resurrection. Per those verse, Paul writes that the dead shall be raised incorruptible. If our bodies are raised to incorruptibility in the resurrection, then we will have put on immortality at that time. In your order of event, the resurrection comes before the judgment, and per Paul we are resurrected to incorruptibility...I'd have to say that immortality comes prior to judgment.

Paul does not speak of the judgement in 1 Corinthians 15. He is only proving to the Corinthians the necessity of resurrection, which the Corinthians had in their Grecian wisdom somehow denied. I also believe that resurrection can be viewed as a process, an awakening, then judgement and then quickening to immortality. The whole process then, resurrection from the dead to immortality. This explanation is tentative as explained in my opening comment of this Post. The Biblicist also based some of his ideas on the immediate immortality of those raised, but I need to properly consider this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Hark]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

The following parable gives the same sequence as I have previously mentioned, the return of Jesus, and the necessity for many of Jesus’ servants - resurrection or awakening from the sleep of death.

I understand your applying this time of judging to be after the resurrection or the awakening from the sleep of death, but the parable you selected does not really convey that at all, but judgment on the living for what they have done in serving the Lord when He returns. And yes, when compared to other parables with the same message theme of God judging His servants, it will include those "asleep", but not every one of His sheep that are "alseep" will be resurrected at the appearing of the Bridegroom since the only ones being received in inheritting the incorruptible are those ready and found abiding in Him. Those living saints left behind will be slain to join those dishonourable saints whom are under the altar still, but present with the Lord to wait for their resurrection to be received as vessels unto dishonours in His House.

Then judgement, for the faithful who have been diligent in the Master’s service - the granting of entering into the joy of their Lord – that is everlasting life in the kingdom of God upon the earth, and for the slothful or wicked – rejection.

There is a receiving with rewards and then there is a rejection of His servants which I see still as saved believers, otherwise, they cannot be called His servants wherein they were being held accountable.

Matthew 25:14-30 (KJV): 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The above parable also cuts across your concepts and objection to a works-based faith. I suggest you have altered the sequence because of your views on this concept. Jesus teaches responsibility and accountability based upon and motivated by a true understanding of the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is a gathering of the disciples into the barn as His sheep, and a rejection of the goats to be received later on, but He will get the lost sheep that went astray from Him.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

So the rejections are those called but not chosen to attend the King's Supper, but these little ones are still His and called the leasts in the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 5:17 ) as they will be the vessels unto dishonour in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) to be received later on because God will judge His House first as He will judge His servants ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) before He comes to judge the world with the raptured saints.

The following helps to explain the works of the Law, and contrasts the works of faith motivated by love:
Galatians 5:5-6 (KJV): 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Kind regards
Trevor

Every believer will be judged for what they have built on that foundation in that day when God will judge His House first. 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

Not every believer in the grave will be resurrected when He is receiving the vessels unto honour in His House as the Bridegroom.

The living saints that get left behind will become vessels unto dishonour in His House as they are to die to be made to rest from ther labours as their works shall follow them into the dust which is why those left behind saints inthe grave are not going to be resurrected since the living dishonourable saints will be joining the dishonourable saints in the dust until after the great tribulation when they shall be received as vessels unto dishonour in His House.

 

[Hark]

Greetings Hark and PreachTony,

I appreciate your responses, but I am not sure if I want to fully discuss the immortality of the soul and going to heaven and hell at death. I do not believe in these concepts, but believe in returning to the dust at death and waiting for the resurrection at the return of Christ One reason why I am not enthusiastic about discussing this is that I have yet to fully work out or understand some of the passages that I would consider “difficult” and this will be evident from some aspects of my responses below.

You should consider the concept when dealing with difficult passages. Trust Jesus to help you see the truth in His words regardless of the position you hold in your point of view.

One may debate as to whethor or not King Saul had actually talked to the prophet Samuel when the witch called up his spirit for Saul to talk to, but His words in Isaiah 8:19 proves that it can be done and why it is forbidden as the living are to seek God, and not the dead for advise.

I am unsure of what you are suggesting here.

The words you are reading in Daniel are for the living and so from their point of view, that body laid to rest are considered asleep from the living point of view by which they would see them awake from the living point of view in witnessing the resurrection.

So the asleep and awake is referring to the body laid at rest from the living point of view and not really testifying that the spirits of those bodies are actually asleep.

My only explanation is that Jesus was speaking a parable based upon some of the false ideas held by the Pharisees.

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Seems to me that Jesus was warning them of what awaits them. The warning has no merit if the parable was just a story.

Towards the end of his discourse, Jesus speaks of the resurrection and the fact that Lazarus is part of the parable, I believe that Jesus is anticipating the resurrection of Lazarus. This parable does not line up with the Catholic and Protestant views of the immortal soul and going to heaven and hell at death.

There are other people named John in the NT just as there will be other people named Lazarus. In this incident, Lazarus was a person in a parable in Luke 16th chapter and not necessarily referring to the same Lazarus of John 11th chapter.

Jesus could very well be referring to him, but there is really no knowing for sure until we meet Him face to face.

If so as you are led to believe, then that has to be the truth of what that living Lazarus went through when he had died. Do consider that point because it would be considered a false witness if He was not really referring to an actual person you think He is referring to as named that Lazarus.

We have a different view of these things, and part of our difference is I do not believe in the “rapture”. I believe that His House will comprise faithful and unfaithful and they will be judged at the same time.
The “order” here is the distinction between the time of the resurrection of Christ and they that are Christ’s – they shall be resurrected at Christ’s coming.

If the King's Supper will be held in His honour, how then can the vessels unto dishonour be attending that Supper in shame?

If you read 2 Timothy 2:11-13, you will find that any work that denies Him, they will be denied ( 2 Timothy 2:12 ); and yet even if they err from the truth to have their faith overthrown ( 2 Timothy 2:18 ) they are still His ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) BUT there is a denying them as they will not be attending the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, but yet once denied, they will be received later on for He still abides in them for He cannot deny Himself even in those that had believed, but no longer believe in Him any more ( 2 Timothy 2:13 )

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself....

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings The Biblicist,

I do not accept most of these

I have learned through past conversation with you that you will not accept any amount of clear and explicit Biblical based condemnation of your heresies and so it is a waste of time to reason with you as you simply come back with the very same answer every time regardless of the amount of unimpeachable evidence placed before you and that is "I do not accept".

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Hark and The Biblicist,

I appreciate your thorough responses Hark. I will try to respond to a few aspects, but the following comments by The Biblicist and my response may indicate some of the difficulty we have to communicate properly and resolve these things.

I have learned through past conversation with you that you will not accept any amount of clear and explicit Biblical based condemnation of your heresies and so it is a waste of time to reason with you as you simply come back with the very same answer every time regardless of the amount of unimpeachable evidence placed before you and that is "I do not accept".

I can understand some of your criticism but I do not deliberately ignore “any amount of clear and explicit Biblical based” ideas that you have presented in the past, that you claim are “condemnation of (my) heresies”.

We are in different environments and have come to considerable different opinions on many Scriptures and doctrines, and when you use a Scripture in a particular way, and it seems to reinforce your conclusions, it is difficult for me to clearly state how I view these Scriptures and I sometimes resort to the phrase “I do not accept …”. For example in the two responses by Hark, he weaves into some of his answers ideas that “I do not accept”. Some of these ideas I can guess at what he believes on these things, but to answer in detail I find very difficult. I will briefly highlight some of these (by adding and enclosing with *** and undelining when I quote his Posts) in the following, while trying to answer some aspects of Hark’ Posts. I will not necessarily comment on the portions thus marked:

I understand your applying this time of judging to be after the resurrection or the awakening from the sleep of death, but the parable you selected does not really convey that at all, but judgment on the living for what they have done in serving the Lord when He returns. And yes, when compared to other parables with the same message theme of God judging His servants, it will include those "asleep", but ***not every one of His sheep that are "alseep" will be resurrected at the appearing of the Bridegroom since the only ones being received in inheritting the incorruptible are those ready and found abiding in Him***. Those living saints ***left behind*** will be slain to join those dishonourable saints ***whom are under the altar still, but present with the Lord to wait for their resurrection*** to be received as vessels unto dishonours in His House.

Most of the parables seem to apply from when Jesus ascends to heaven until he returns. Thus many will be resurrected for this parable to make sense. I have underlined “left behind” as it seems to indicate the rapture(?), and possibly uses the language of a popular series of books.

There is a receiving with rewards and then there is a rejection of His servants which ***I see still as saved believers***, otherwise, they cannot be called His servants wherein they were being held accountable.

Are you saying they will be saved, or rejected? I believe they are unfaithful servants.

There is a gathering of the disciples into the barn as His sheep, and a rejection of the goats ***to be received later on***, but ***He will get the lost sheep that went astray from Him***. (Matthew 18:10-15 added here)

This appears to me as mixing of a number of parables and adding a sequence which is not inherent in these parables.

So the rejections are those called but not chosen to attend the King's Supper, but these little ones are still His and called the leasts in the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 5:17 ) as they will be the vessels unto dishonour in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) to be received later on because God will judge His House first as He will judge His servants ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) before He comes to judge the world with the raptured saints.

I would need to *** and underline nearly all of the above.

Every believer will be judged for what they have built on that foundation in that day when God will judge His House first. 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

I agree.

***Not every believer in the grave will be resurrected when He is receiving the vessels unto honour in His House as the Bridegroom.***

I believe that they will be resurrected at the same time to be judged.

The living saints that get ***left behind*** will become vessels unto dishonour in His House as they are to die to be made to rest from their labours as their works shall follow them into the dust which is why those left behind saints in the grave are not going to be resurrected since the living dishonourable saints will be joining the dishonourable saints in the dust until after the great tribulation when they shall be received as vessels unto dishonour in His House.

I am not sure exactly what portions to *** and underline above, because I found it difficult to appreciate what Hark is saying here.

You should consider the concept when dealing with difficult passages. Trust Jesus to help you see the truth in His words regardless of the position you hold in your point of view.

Good advice. If I am convinced of a particular teaching though, and this is based on say 20-30 Scriptures, I label a verse “difficult” if this particular verse does not seem to readily agree with the other 20-30 Scriptures. Many of these “difficult” verses become clearer when properly considered in their context etc.

One may debate as to whether or not King Saul had actually talked to the prophet Samuel when the witch called up his spirit for Saul to talk to, but His words in Isaiah 8:19 proves that it can be done and why it is forbidden as the living are to seek God, and not the dead for advise.

I believe that God raised Samuel from the dead and then Samuel spoke to Saul. I also believe Moses and Elijah rose from the dead to appear in the transfiguration. I do not believe that our spirits or we are conscious after death. I have run out of time and this Post is too long. Not sure if I will have opportunity to answer the rest in a day or two.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

The following parable gives the same sequence as I have previously mentioned, the return of Jesus, and the necessity for many of Jesus’ servants - resurrection or awakening from the sleep of death. Then judgement, for the faithful who have been diligent in the Master’s service - the granting of entering into the joy of their Lord – that is everlasting life in the kingdom of God upon the earth, and for the slothful or wicked – rejection.
Matthew 25:14-30 (KJV): 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

First, parables are not the basis for doctrine, because parables are designed to convey a specific point - here it is accountability. However, the parable is conveyed in temporal human language rather in precise doctrine for eternal things.

The above parable also cuts across your concepts and objection to a works-based faith.

Doctrine is established on unambigous clear precepts and principles such as in John 6:37-40 which contradicts your assumptions about this parable. This wicked servant may also represent a false professor which is consistent with John 6:37-40 as not all professors are really saved. For example consider John 6:64-65 and the case of "some" of his own disciples including Judus of whom Christ described in the present tense to be a "devil" (Jn. 6:70) and one who "from the beginning" never truly had a believing heart in Christ (v. 64).

My point, is that your doctrine is established on ambigous scriptures (parables, types, spiritualizations) but in direct contradiction to clear and explcit teachings (Jn. 3;16, 36; 5:24; 6:37-40; 10:27-30; etc.).

 

[Hark]

Greetings again Hark; I appreciate your thorough responses Hark.

I give the Lord credit and I need His help to keep doing that too.

We are in different environments and have come to considerable different opinions on many Scriptures and doctrines, and when you use a Scripture in a particular way, and it seems to reinforce your conclusions, it is difficult for me to clearly state how I view these Scriptures and I sometimes resort to the phrase “I do not accept …”. For example in the two responses by Hark, he weaves into some of his answers ideas that “I do not accept”. Some of these ideas I can guess at what he believes on these things, but to answer in detail I find very difficult. I will briefly highlight some of these (by adding and enclosing with *** and undelining when I quote his Posts) in the following, while trying to answer some aspects of Hark’ Posts. I will not necessarily comment on the portions thus marked:

Disagreeing would be the same as not accepting a certain viewpoint.

Most of the parables seem to apply from when Jesus ascends to heaven until he returns. Thus many will be resurrected for this parable to make sense. I have underlined “left behind” as it seems to indicate the rapture(?), and possibly uses the language of a popular series of books.

Yes, I was using the language of a popular series book, but it should be known I am not in agreement with the views of that series.

I do not believe all saved believers will be taken up as many will be found not abiding in Him & His words as only His disciples shall be taken up.

I do not believe USA will be around nor that there will be a tribulation force to be a thorn in the abomination of desolation's side.

Are you saying they will be saved, or rejected? I believe they are unfaithful servants.

Unfaithful servants will be rejected, but they are still saved; otherwise, be kind of false to address them as His servants unless they are actually His.

This appears to me as mixing of a number of parables and adding a sequence which is not inherent in these parables.

At least, not yet to you. I am hoping the Lord will help you see it.

I had posted:

"So the rejections are those called but not chosen to attend the King's Supper, but these little ones are still His and called the leasts in the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 5:17 ) as they will be the vessels unto dishonour in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) to be received later on because God will judge His House first as He will judge His servants ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) before He comes to judge the world with the raptured saints."

From which you had replied

I would need to *** and underline nearly all of the above.

Did you have a question about that?

I agree.

If you agree that every believer will be judged by what was built on that foundation in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, then you may understand that the destroying of the believer that defiles the temple of God which our body is, means physical death and thus being cast into the great tribulation to receive it.

Revelations 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So here is an example of believers being judged by their works with death by being "left behind" to face the coming great tribulation to receive it.

I believe that they will be resurrected at the same time to be judged.

If those living wayward & unrepentant saints are left behind to die, it would be pointless & moot to resurrect those dishonourable saints if they are going to die again immediately afterwards.

I am not sure exactly what portions to *** and underline above, because I found it difficult to appreciate what Hark is saying here.

Hopefully the Lord has led me to explain that better for you already.

Good advice. If I am convinced of a particular teaching though, and this is based on say 20-30 Scriptures, I label a verse “difficult” if this particular verse does not seem to readily agree with the other 20-30 Scriptures. Many of these “difficult” verses become clearer when properly considered in their context etc.

Well, if you could give an example of a difficult verse that seemingly is disagreeing with 20-30 other verses, it may help me to see your point. Not that you have to list those 20-30 verses, but two or three in order to see why you deem a certain passage as difficult.

I believe that God raised Samuel from the dead and then Samuel spoke to Saul.

That's not what the scripture testify of. Saul had approached the woman to call up the ghost of Samuel. God did not raised Samuel from the dead to speak to Saul. Saul had sinned by using that witch and the ghost of Samuel by the Holy Spirit had prophesied Saul's death for doing so.

1 Samuel 28: Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

So God did not bring Samuel up; Saul did by way of a woman with a familiar spirit.

 

[Hark]

I appreciate your thorough responses Hark.

A little bit more edification for you in continuing from the last post.

Samuel was in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise when Jesus had descended to meet the thief there.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient....

So Jesus meeting the thief in Paradise aka Abraham's bosom would suggest what? Afterlife.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Where is Paradise now?

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Did Jesus lead the captive from captivity?

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So when He had ascended; He took Paradise and those that were in it with Him where they await for the coming disciples to inherit the incorruptible and sit together at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as I understand this by His grace & by His help.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

God is coming to judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture event which means there will be many saints thrust out as in left behind for not being found abiding in Him & His words as His disciples.

Those saints cut asunder and thus left behind will find their portion with the unbelievers to face the coming great tribulation.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not....45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Those receiving stripes are those cut asunder to face the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth. That means wayward & unrepentant saints will be left behind....

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Hark and The Biblicist,

I prepared the following offline as a continuation of my response to your second of two earlier Posts. Coming online for a short time I have briefly read your further responses and I hope to consider them, but will not have any spare time for a day or two. Some of what I state below, and some of the questions that I ask Hark has to some extent already answered in his latest. I will dispense with the *** and underlining. Firstly a question on the subject of Saul and Samuel. Do you believe that man’s spirit lives on after death and is a continuation of his consciousness? Does this spirit resemble the person before his death, like a ghost that is sometimes claimed to resemble someone? For example the Butcher’s wife in Fiddler on the Roof, who came up out of the grave to terrorise Tevye and his wife in the “dream” of Tevye. She came forth as an old woman, still wearing her pearls. When Samuel was seen he was an old man with a mantle. Do immaterial spirits assume clothes and a mantle? One of our senior speakers in our meeting believes that Samuel’s appearance and even that of Moses and Elijah were only visions, though I believe they were real resurrections. I find Isaiah 6 interesting, as it seems to be a live interaction of Isaiah with a vision. There seems to be a very fine line between a vision and reality.

The words you are reading in Daniel are for the living and so from their point of view, that body laid to rest are considered asleep from the living point of view by which they would see them awake from the living point of view in witnessing the resurrection.

So the asleep and awake is referring to the body laid at rest from the living point of view and not really testifying that the spirits of those bodies are actually asleep.

I believe that the expression “sleep in the dust of the earth” is an allusion to Genesis 3:19, where Adam is told that he would return to dust. Adam is told “dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return”. God does not say, “dust is thy body and immortal thy soul or spirit, and unto dust shalt thy body return, but the real you, your immortal soul or spirit will go to heaven or hell at death”. Jesus uses the language of “sleep” when referring to the death of Lazarus, but when the disciples misunderstood this, he stated “Lazarus is dead”.

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Seems to me that Jesus was warning them of what awaits them. The warning has no merit if the parable was just a story.
There are other people named John in the NT just as there will be other people named Lazarus. In this incident, Lazarus was a person in a parable in Luke 16th chapter and not necessarily referring to the same Lazarus of John 11th chapter.
Jesus could very well be referring to him, but there is really no knowing for sure until we meet Him face to face.
If so as you are led to believe, then that has to be the truth of what that living Lazarus went through when he had died. Do consider that point because it would be considered a false witness if He was not really referring to an actual person you think He is referring to as named that Lazarus.

I am not sure if you would accept all the detail as literal. Did the death of the rich man and Lazarus occur before the death of Christ? Where is Abraham’s bosom? Is this another name for heaven? But Samuel one of the faithful seemed to arise out of the earth. Can the tormented in hell see those within Abraham’s bosom? Would one drop of water placed upon the tongue relieve the rich man’s tongue, when he is tormented in the flames of hell? Why does the rich man seek help from Abraham? Yes I believe that Jesus deliberately selected Lazarus for this parable, and the real Lazarus could have died from some form of leprosy. At the end of the parable Jesus states that the five brothers of this rich Pharisee would not believe if they witnessed a resurrection. When Lazarus was raised from the dead the Pharisees not only did not believe, but this seemed to trigger their determination to now kill Lazarus as well as Jesus.

Now for the problem that you insist upon, and an admission that the Rich Man and Lazarus is a “difficult” passage for me. I can only claim that Jesus used the wrong teaching of the Pharisees as a basis for his parable. Why? I could only speculate and I do not think you would accept these speculations. Firstly by this vivid picture he would definitely drive home the lesson about their covetousness. Secondly, could it be a partial parody of their belief, especially when he ends the parable with what I believe is the only true doctrine in this area, the resurrection. Jesus’ prediction at the end of this parable sadly came true, many of the Pharisees were hardened in heart, not only by the resurrection of Lazarus, but also the much greater event, the resurrection of Jesus

If the King's Supper will be held in His honour, how then can the vessels unto dishonour be attending that Supper in shame?
If you read 2 Timothy 2:11-13, you will find that any work that denies Him, they will be denied ( 2 Timothy 2:12 ); and yet even if they err from the truth to have their faith overthrown ( 2 Timothy 2:18 ) they are still His ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) BUT there is a denying them as they will not be attending the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, but yet once denied, they will be received later on for He still abides in them for He cannot deny Himself even in those that had believed, but no longer believe in Him any more ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) (you then quote 2 Timothy 2:11, 18-21)

I am not sure how you introduce the sequence of the “King’s Supper” here. My understanding is that it is possible to fall away, and to deny Christ, and to turn to unbelief as per verses 12-13. Similarly those who adopt the wrong teaching would end up in dishonour as per verses 18-20. These categories, vv12-13, 18-20 will result in rejection and suffering the second death, a return to dust and destruction.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings again Hark and The Biblicist,

I prepared the following offline as a continuation of my response to your second of two earlier Posts. Coming online for a short time I have briefly read your further responses and I hope to consider them, but will not have any spare time for a day or two. Some of what I state below, and some of the questions that I ask Hark has to some extent already answered in his latest. I will dispense with the *** and underlining. Firstly a question on the subject of Saul and Samuel. Do you believe that man’s spirit lives on after death and is a continuation of his consciousness? Does this spirit resemble the person before his death, like a ghost that is sometimes claimed to resemble someone? For example the Butcher’s wife in Fiddler on the Roof, who came up out of the grave to terrorise Tevye and his wife in the “dream” of Tevye. She came forth as an old woman, still wearing her pearls. When Samuel was seen he was an old man with a mantle. Do immaterial spirits assume clothes and a mantle? One of our senior speakers in our meeting believes that Samuel’s appearance and even that of Moses and Elijah were only visions, though I believe they were real resurrections. I find Isaiah 6 interesting, as it seems to be a live interaction of Isaiah with a vision. There seems to be a very fine line between a vision and reality.
I believe that the expression “sleep in the dust of the earth” is an allusion to Genesis 3:19, where Adam is told that he would return to dust. Adam is told “dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return”. God does not say, “dust is thy body and immortal thy soul or spirit, and unto dust shalt thy body return, but the real you, your immortal soul or spirit will go to heaven or hell at death”. Jesus uses the language of “sleep” when referring to the death of Lazarus, but when the disciples misunderstood this, he stated “Lazarus is dead”.
I am not sure if you would accept all the detail as literal. Did the death of the rich man and Lazarus occur before the death of Christ? Where is Abraham’s bosom? Is this another name for heaven? But Samuel one of the faithful seemed to arise out of the earth. Can the tormented in hell see those within Abraham’s bosom? Would one drop of water placed upon the tongue relieve the rich man’s tongue, when he is tormented in the flames of hell? Why does the rich man seek help from Abraham? Yes I believe that Jesus deliberately selected Lazarus for this parable, and the real Lazarus could have died from some form of leprosy. At the end of the parable Jesus states that the five brothers of this rich Pharisee would not believe if they witnessed a resurrection. When Lazarus was raised from the dead the Pharisees not only did not believe, but this seemed to trigger their determination to now kill Lazarus as well as Jesus.

Now for the problem that you insist upon, and an admission that the Rich Man and Lazarus is a “difficult” passage for me. I can only claim that Jesus used the wrong teaching of the Pharisees as a basis for his parable. Why? I could only speculate and I do not think you would accept these speculations. Firstly by this vivid picture he would definitely drive home the lesson about their covetousness. Secondly, could it be a partial parody of their belief, especially when he ends the parable with what I believe is the only true doctrine in this area, the resurrection. Jesus’ prediction at the end of this parable sadly came true, many of the Pharisees were hardened in heart, not only by the resurrection of Lazarus, but also the much greater event, the resurrection of Jesus
I am not sure how you introduce the sequence of the “King’s Supper” here. My understanding is that it is possible to fall away, and to deny Christ, and to turn to unbelief as per verses 12-13. Similarly those who adopt the wrong teaching would end up in dishonour as per verses 18-20. These categories, vv12-13, 18-20 will result in rejection and suffering the second death, a return to dust and destruction.

Kind regards
Trevor

It is obvious your mind is already made up in regard to the larger issues and that your are merely seeking answers to bring problem passages into consistency with your own views.

I would suggest that you reexamine your definition of "death" and what it is. Can a person still be conscious and physically alive in their body and yet be at the same time "dead" as in the cases of Ephesians 2:1 and 1 Tim. 5:6. Can a person be physically alive and yet be "alienated from the life of God" as in Eph. 5:18. Can a person be physically dead but yet consciously incapable of death as in John 11:26. God told Adam that "in the day" he ate he would die and yet at the same time he is "dying" for another 930 years before physical death occurred.

Then I suggest you reexamine your definition of "life" and what it is. Can a physically living person need to be "quickened" and why it is the "spirit" that is "born again" (Jn. 3:6).

When all the Biblical evidence is honestly evaluated it will be discovered that death and life are not conscious versus unconscious existence, but rather two different states of conscious existence that are better explained by "separation" (death) and "union" (life) in relationship to themselves and to God.

You fail to understand that the book of Ecclesiastes is written from a human philosophical observational perspective of life from "under the sun" rather than from an omniscient divine and doctrinal perspective. This accounts for your misuse of Ecclesiastes 9:5 and similar texts within that book. Furthermore, your view thrives and primarily rests upon ambiguous passages, parables and interpretations directly opposed to clear and explicit Biblical precepts to the contrary. Hence, reasoning with you is futile as long as you follow that kind of hermeneutic.

 

[Hark]

Greetings again Hark

Greetings TrevorL

Firstly a question on the subject of Saul and Samuel. Do you believe that man’s spirit lives on after death and is a continuation of his consciousness?

Yes.

Does this spirit resemble the person before his death, like a ghost that is sometimes claimed to resemble someone? For example the Butcher’s wife in Fiddler on the Roof, who came up out of the grave to terrorise Tevye and his wife in the “dream” of Tevye. She came forth as an old woman, still wearing her pearls.

I am not familiar with that scene. Sorry.

When Samuel was seen he was an old man with a mantle. Do immaterial spirits assume clothes and a mantle?

They can have the appearance of one, yes. Do note that we shall all be different in appearance upon the resurrection.

One of our senior speakers in our meeting believes that Samuel’s appearance and even that of Moses and Elijah were only visions, though I believe they were real resurrections. I find Isaiah 6 interesting, as it seems to be a live interaction of Isaiah with a vision. There seems to be a very fine line between a vision and reality.

Well, in Saul's case, neither God nor a vision was invloved with him seeing the ghost of Samuel, but a woman with a familiar spirit was which was Saul's sin for contacting Samuel in this manner for godly advise when he should have just asked the Lord; and waited for His answer. His refusal to see that God has chosen another king may be the reason why He was not answering.

I believe that the expression “sleep in the dust of the earth” is an allusion to Genesis 3:19, where Adam is told that he would return to dust. Adam is told “dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return”. God does not say, “dust is thy body and immortal thy soul or spirit, and unto dust shalt thy body return, but the real you, your immortal soul or spirit will go to heaven or hell at death”.

God was giving a curse for sinning as death came into the world because of his sin. All of nature suffer because of it.

Genesis 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Just because God is not giving a full detail as to what happens at death, it does not negate the truth in His words elsewhere.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This is why God will judge every one.

Jesus uses the language of “sleep” when referring to the death of Lazarus, but when the disciples misunderstood this, he stated “Lazarus is dead”.

Informing that Lazarus was no longer alive on earth is hardly inferring that Lazarus's spirit was asleep.

I am not sure if you would accept all the detail as literal. Did the death of the rich man and Lazarus occur before the death of Christ?

Jesus telling the parable before His death on the cross would suggest that He was referring to a time before His death.

Where is Abraham’s bosom? Is this another name for heaven?

Abraham's bosom per His parable was located across the great chasm of hell beneathe. Abraham's bosom is also known as Paradise as that was where Jesus met up with the thief on the cross as He descended first to the lower parts of the earth. Now that He has risen& has ascended, Paradise is located in the heaven above, after leading the cvaptive from captivity.

But Samuel one of the faithful seemed to arise out of the earth.

At the time of King Saul, that was where Samuel was in Abraham's bosom.

Can the tormented in hell see those within Abraham’s bosom?

Yes.

Would one drop of water placed upon the tongue relieve the rich man’s tongue, when he is tormented in the flames of hell?

No, because there is a great chasm between hell and Abraham' bosom that neither can cross over.

Why does the rich man seek help from Abraham?

To warn his family of what awaits them after death.

Yes I believe that Jesus deliberately selected Lazarus for this parable, and the real Lazarus could have died from some form of leprosy.

Don't you think if it was the same Lazarus that after having been resurrected, his confirmation would marvel what Jesus had said in His parable? I would fail to see why the author of that gospel would call it a parable and not a report.

At the end of the parable Jesus states that the five brothers of this rich Pharisee would not believe if they witnessed a resurrection. When Lazarus was raised from the dead the Pharisees not only did not believe, but this seemed to trigger their determination to now kill Lazarus as well as Jesus.

Which answers the question why those OT saints resurrected after His resurrection, were not believed.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now for the problem that you insist upon, and an admission that the Rich Man and Lazarus is a “difficult” passage for me. I can only claim that Jesus used the wrong teaching of the Pharisees as a basis for his parable. Why? I could only speculate and I do not think you would accept these speculations. Firstly by this vivid picture he would definitely drive home the lesson about their covetousness. Secondly, could it be a partial parody of their belief, especially when he ends the parable with what I believe is the only true doctrine in this area, the resurrection. Jesus’ prediction at the end of this parable sadly came true, many of the Pharisees were hardened in heart, not only by the resurrection of Lazarus, but also the much greater event, the resurrection of Jesus

I understand your speculation but you are required to prove all things by Him, including your speculations. So don't rest on your speculations. Seek an answer from Him as time goes by.

Kind of like a scientist or a detective: you can speculate or hypothsize all you want, but eventually comes the task of elementary deduction. All of scripture has to come into play in getting to the truth of the matter.

I am not sure how you introduce the sequence of the “King’s Supper” here. My understanding is that it is possible to fall away, and to deny Christ, and to turn to unbelief as per verses 12-13. Similarly those who adopt the wrong teaching would end up in dishonour as per verses 18-20. These categories, vv12-13, 18-20 will result in rejection and suffering the second death, a return to dust and destruction.

Well, there is a reward upon receiving, and a rejection and thus disqualified from receiving the reward. Other scripture comes into play in seeing what that reward is as it does refer to the King's Supper: Luke 14:15-24 and becoming a castaway as a result for not running that race by faith in Him as their Good Shepherd in living as His disciple to attend the Marriage Supper.

1 Corinthians 9: 24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So losing crowns is not the only consequence as becoming a castaway is also.

Those put to shame in being vessels unto dishonour would hardly enjoy the King's Supper in His honour, but they are still His, and like the prodigal son that gave up his first inheritance for wild living, there will be a great loss felt for all eternity, but he is still son, and God will wipe away the tears from their eyes to get over that great loss for being left behind as a castaway.

Course, while the door to the King's Supper is still open, may every believer trust the Good Shepherd in helping them to discern & depart from all iniquity to be found abiding in Him & His words as His disciples to attend the King's Supper.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

First, parables are not the basis for doctrine, because parables are designed to convey a specific point - here it is accountability. However, the parable is conveyed in temporal human language rather in precise doctrine for eternal things.

I can agree that we should be cautious in using the parables for precise doctrine, but I also consider that many parables do reflect many aspects of the true doctrines, in their particulars and sequence. I consider the Parable of the Talents Matthew 25:14-30 to be in this category. For example “the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country” seems to depict Jesus going to heaven. And “after a long time the lord of those servants cometh” seems to depict Jesus’ future return from heaven and we now know that this “long time” is already nearly 2000 years. There is a need though to also establish the precise doctrine from simple and clear statements by Jesus and the Apostles wherever possible.

Doctrine is established on unambiguous clear precepts and principles such as in John 6:37-40 which contradicts your assumptions about this parable. This wicked servant may also represent a false professor which is consistent with John 6:37-40 as not all professors are really saved. For example consider John 6:64-65 and the case of "some" of his own disciples including Judas of whom Christ described in the present tense to be a "devil" (Jn. 6:70) and one who "from the beginning" never truly had a believing heart in Christ (v. 64).

My point, is that your doctrine is established on ambiguous scriptures (parables, types, spiritualizations) but in direct contradiction to clear and explicit teachings (Jn. 3;16, 36; 5:24; 6:37-40; 10:27-30; etc.).

I have copied out the verses that you mentioned mainly for my own benefit. I have also underlined some portions that I assume you consider support your “clear and explicit teachings” contrary to my view.
John 6:37-40 (KJV): 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:64-65 (KJV): 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:70 (KJV): Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 (KJV): He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24 (KJV): Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 10:27-30 (KJV): 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Most of the verses that you quote speak in absolute terms, but these need to be balanced with other Scriptures. If the true believers already have everlasting life, how can Paul still speak of “hope of eternal life”?
Titus 1:2 (KJV): In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Titus 3:7 (KJV): That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Also I would like to rescue John 3:16 from your list of references, as I consider it sets before us the two alternatives, perish or everlasting life.
John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Is eternal torment in hell perishing? Rather the second death and returning to dust is perishing.


Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Hark]

Also I would like to rescue John 3:16 from your list of references, as I consider it sets before us the two alternatives, perish or everlasting life.
John 3:16 (KJV): For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Is eternal torment in hell perishing? Rather the second death and returning to dust is perishing.

In regards to John 3:16, perish is eternal torment, but there are other uses of perish in other parts of scripture which does not mean eternal torment.

It all depends on the context. Example:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Peter set the use for perish as not referring to eternal torment but death by the world wide flood and so verse 9 is having Peter use of the word perish again for avoiding the fiery judgment coming on the earth; not eternal torment.

Another example of perish as referring to physical death is ..

Matthew 8:25And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

So how the word "perish" is used in the context of the message defines it.

There is perish meaning eternal torment and then there is perish meaning physical death.