Which is worse?

[Bro. James Reed]

From my earlier post:

Matthew
5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Am I reading this wrong? Does it not say that if they marry after being divorced they are committing adultery? If I'm missing something, I'd really love for you to point it out.

Bro. James

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by Johnv:
I tell you one thing, if I had a husband that kissed another woman, talked to her, spent time with her and lived with her, but had no sex, I'd STILL view that as adultery.

Very good. I'm sooo glad someone else besides me thinks that!!!! I've unfortunately known several men and women who have speant time with a person of the opposite sex and engaged with them as they should with their spouses, but have not had sex, and they don't think this constitutes adultery. I tend to disagree, since it's adultery of the heart, which is adultery plain and simple.

Pardon my cynicism, (that is another string...), but if all that is going on, that is probably not all that's going on. There are just too many "Motel 6" outlets available! Then there are those who are very restrictive about what constitutes sex (such as Slick Willy), and I won't go there!

 

[Johnv]

It's interesting to note that neither remarriage after divorce nor having a child out of wedlock are on God's list of 7 things He hates in Proverbs.
Nor is it covered in Ten Commandments. Good observation.

I think our society doesn't look on unwed pregnancies as severely as they used to. I don't know if that is good or bad.
It's probably both. On one hand, the fact taht the mother is choosing to keep the baby and rear it to the best of her ability should be applauded. OTOH, that also comes at the cost of losing some consequences that are attached with inappropriate behavior.

There are a lot of mixed signals. For example, a friend of mine in high school got pregnant, and the school kicked her out (it was a private school). The father was allowed to remain in school. To me that's a double standard. Her parents would not allow the father to take part in the birthing classes, saying he was irresponsible. Later, her parents threw her a baby shower. Another double standard.

Years later, the father got custody, but the mom refused to pay child support. Yet another double standard.

I could go on, and on, and on, but I think you get my point.

 

[hsmom3]

Originally posted by Johnv:
There are a lot of mixed signals. For example, a friend of mine in high school got pregnant, and the school kicked her out (it was a private school). The father was allowed to remain in school. To me that's a double standard. Her parents would not allow the father to take part in the birthing classes, saying he was irresponsible. Later, her parents threw her a baby shower. Another double standard.

Years later, the father got custody, but the mom refused to pay child support. Yet another double standard.

I could go on, and on, and on, but I think you get my point.

Yes, they are all double-standards. The boy had just as much to do with it as she did.

It leads me to another question. Why was so much emphasis in the Bible on a lady being a virgin, but there was nothing said about a man being one? I know it's both very important, at least that's how I feel. I know there was no physical way to determine virginity for a man, but there is nothing directly saying anything about it's importance. (If there is I don't recall it.)

Thanks!

hsmom3

 

[hsmom3]

Originally posted by Johnv:
I tell you one thing, if I had a husband that kissed another woman, talked to her, spent time with her and lived with her, but had no sex, I'd STILL view that as adultery.

Very good. I'm sooo glad someone else besides me thinks that!!!! I've unfortunately known several men and women who have speant time with a person of the opposite sex and engaged with them as they should with their spouses, but have not had sex, and they don't think this constitutes adultery. I tend to disagree, since it's adultery of the heart, which is adultery plain and simple.

I also consider talking dirty to other women and viewing pornography adultery. I experienced both of this in my ex.

hsmom3

 

[LauraB]

So now how did we get on the subject of adultery?

But as long as we are on it I will add in my 2 cents worth.

This is a subject where my husband and I clash.

I believe that he shouldn't have women "buddies". I am not saying he should totally ignore the opposite sex, but I think it should be in a civil manner.
One of his old high school friends went on and on in an e-mail about her sex life. I feel that was wrong on the part of the woman to do because she was talking to a married man, and also that is something she shouldn't as a woman be blurting out. I believe that is adultery.

I believe kissing, lips, cheek other than family, is adultery.
But then again this is just my view.

 

[hsmom3]

I fully agree with you, Laura.

hsmom3

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Bro. Reed writes:
>>Am I reading this wrong? Does it not say that
>>if they marry after being divorced they are
>>committing adultery? If I'm missing something,
>>I'd really love for you to point it out.

Once again, you have provided no proof that Christians that are remarried must abstain. If a Christian is divorced and remarried, and asks forgiveness for their sin, then the sin is forgiven. I hope that you are not suggesting otherwise.

If there is another marriage then I Corinthians applies to the new marriage. Show me the Scripture that overrides what the Apostle Paul wrote "concerning the married" in I Corinthians.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

LauraB writes:
>>One of his old high school friends went on and
>>on in an e-mail about her sex life.

<squirming uneasily in chair>
Here in the Commonwealth, that is what we call "TMI" - Too Much Information. I have many friends that are women, and this topic has never come up in even the most casual of conversations.
I certainly hope your husband put an abrupt end to that.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

You mean this?

1 Corinthians 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

 

[hsmom3]

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Bro. James Reed writes:
>>You mean this?
>>1 Corinthians 7:11 But and if she depart, let
>>her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her
>>husband: and let not the husband put away his
>>wife.

Once again you have still not provided any Scripture that supports your claim that remarried Christians that have asked and received forgiveness for their sin should abstain.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Well, if you refuse to look at the scripture I've already provided, no amount of scripture is going to convince you. I wash my hands of it. I will not argue with you anymore because I have very plainly presented scripture, but you will not accept it.

As for me, I will go on believing what the Bible says about it...IT'S A SIN!!! No matter how you slice it and all the scripture in the world is not going to change your mind. I'm sorry that this doesn't fit in with your own view of what the Bible should say, but God does not have to be fair to be just.

I will say once again, God will forgive you when you repent, but that does not give you the right to remain in sin.

The Bible says NOWHERE that divorce and remarriage is okay, if you ask for forgiveness first. It plainly says that divorce and remarriage, unless on the grounds of fornication, is adultery. PERIOD. There is no extenuating circumstance to this. There is no exception to this rule.

Go and sin no more, not ask for forgiveness, but continue to live in adultery.

I am through with this discussion as you will not look at the proof.

 

[RTB]

A quick question for the learned out there. My first wife left me for another man, we divorced, I remarried and now have a family. The Lord has led me to a wonderful church, he has blessed me many times over. I can see and feel the Holy Spirit working in my life on so many positive ways. I love the Lord and I will proclaim that without reservation and very loud if need be. My question for the learned, If my divorce (even if for adultry) and remarraige is living in sin, then why is God seeing fit to use an unrepentant sinner (according to some, that is what I am) to work for Him and filling my life with the Holy Spirit to the point that I was able to quit nicotene, foul language, I now attend church regularly and with enthusiasm, I teach a young adult Sunday school class, and I can't wait to read the Bible to see what message God has in store for me today. Why would God see fit to continually bless me in these ways and so much more? Why would he use me to be the Witness for him that I am? We are to be vocal and visual witnesses for Him. Vocal in calling people to know Him and visual in the life that we live. According to some, my visual witness, due to my divorce, is rendered null and void because I am now living in sin and therefor 50% of "witness ability" is gone. Should I therefor, compound the error by divorcing the wife I am now married to, have partial custody of my son, leaving him without a full time, Godly father, Or should I continue in the life I now live with what I believe to be the full support and blessing of my Savior? Think about what y'all are saying and the realize that God is the one in the salvation business, not you and I. Don't judge me by past mistakes, just love me for where God has put me today.

In Christ

Ronnie

 

[RomOne16]

Be very careful Bro. Ronnie, in putting your personal situation up for debate here.

There are those who, armed with their interpretation of the scriptures, will ride rough shod all over your situation without apology.

I speak from experience.

Laura

P.S. I understand where you're coming from though and I fully agree with the points you make.

 

[Major B]

Actually, we have been considering requiring all divorced and remarried Christians to have a big red "D" branded on their forehead, we will call it "The Mark of the Least (in the Kingdom)." They can come to church, but they must sit on the front rows (the back rows are taken by the real Baptists, who sit back there in case something happens like the Holy Spirit falling, so they can get out before they get hit by Him). These "D" marked people must keep their heads down and moan, "Unclean, unclean, unclean," and must testify to the congregation at least once a month and express their mournfulness over their horrible sin..."

Of course I don't believe the above, but it sure seems like others do. At this point, I can't decide whether to throw up or just say, "Duh!"

Is divorce and remarriage a sin? Yes. Is it the unpardonable sin? No, I think that one is taken. Are divorced and remarried people hindered to some degree? Yes, the men in this state are barred from the pastorate and the diaconate. (Of course, most of the other men and all the women are also barred from the pastorate and diaconate.). Can they ever serve God? Well, of course, we call that redemption and reconciliation.

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by LauraB:
This is a subject where my husband and I clash. I believe that he shouldn't have women "buddies". I am not saying he should totally ignore the opposite sex, but I think it should be in a civil manner.
One of his old high school friends went on and on in an e-mail about her sex life. I feel that was wrong on the part of the woman to do because she was talking to a married man, and also that is something she shouldn't as a woman be blurting out. I believe that is adultery.

Right on, Laura! As a Nouthetic Counselor, there are many stories I have heard over the years that back you up fully. Almost all of the adulterous situations I have seen started from "friendships" between men and women, many at work, and when the discussions between these folks begin to get to sensitive areas, the folks are often making the turn that will send them heading down the road to Motel 6 sometime in the not too distant future.

This isn't my opinion, this is based on observation and experience counseling.

 

[wizofoz]

RTB,

I have asked the same questions over and over again, and have not received anything near an answer.

Some will even jump in, state their opinion and call it "the word" then not come back to answer any questions or rebuttals to their statements.

Don't expect an answer that can be backed by scripture. They won't give it.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by LauraB:
I believe that he shouldn't have women "buddies". I feel that [e mail from woman friend telling of sexual problems] is adultery. I believe kissing lips, cheek other than family, is adultery.

Laura, I need to make a point. No matter what YOU believe adultery is or how YOU define adultery, I would simply respond: SO WHAT?

Your definition means nothing and doesn't enter into the equation. You cannot redefine an historic term with dictionary definition to your own liking . . then claim someone is "commiting adultery".

One of the distinguishing marks of post-modern culture is to make new definitions for terms. I would encourage you (and I'm picking at you right now, but we're all guilty of this too) to debate the ISSUE, not your own DEFINITION.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Bro. James Reed writes:
>>Well, if you refuse to look at the scripture
>>I've already provided, no amount of scripture
>>is going to convince you.

What? When did I "refuse to look at the Scripture?" On the contrary, I have asked you several times to provide the Scripture to support your specific claim that once a Christian is forgiven of their sin, they must remain celibate. You are claiming that if a remarried Christian engages in intimacy within the bonds of marriage, then God "unforgives" the sin. That is not Scriptural. If you are going to make a specific claim as doctrine, you have to back it with a specific Verse/Passage in the Bible.

You have not provided any Scripture whatsoever that instructs a remarried Christian to remain celibate. You have provided several passages about how divorce is adultery. There are, however, specific rules about marriage written in I Corinthians. The Apostle Paul wrote "to the married," and a remarried Christian certainly falls in this category.

>>I wash my hands of it. I will not argue with
>>you anymore because I have very plainly
>>presented scripture, but you will not accept it.

You "very plainly presented cripture" that divorce is adultery, nothing more. You failed to produce one single verse to support your specific claim that remarried Christians must remain celibate.
I "will not accept" your personal conviction as doctrine, especially when you did not provide any Scriptural basis for your specific claim.