Which is worse?

[LauraB]

Dr. Bob,

I am not making up my own rules. But I will not go any further in this conversation because alot of this is a private matter between my husband and I and I do not want to embarrass anyone.

In my situation, leys just say its like tempting an alcoholic with a beer!

I believe that men should not have woman friends. I also believe that women should not have men friends. When they are both married. I gave up all my gentleman friends the day I married my husband. It is respect for him. I have no business being friends with men. Now I do talk to men, at church, and I will consider my Pastor my friend, but no other men, not even my Pastor do I get " buddie, Buddie" with and secretly talk on the phone to and secretly send e-mails to.

So Dr. Bob, about your response... SO WHAT!

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

AdoptedDaughter:
To reiterate what TaterTot said, I too would be disappointed if you stopped posting.

You wrote:
>>Even if that is what I meant, I have every
>>right to vote that way.

Nobody disputes that. The only point I am trying to make is that, as Christians, we need to be very careful about issuing blanket rejections on people, simply because of past sins. Moreover, if God has forgiven the sin, what right do we have to say that we don't forgive the sin? As the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 3:23, all of us have sinned. To directly address the question of this thread, the answer is "neither."

>>Just because someone doesn't like what I say,
>>doesn't mean that they need to make me out to
>>be some kind of person who thinks of themselves
>>as holier than thou...

Although I cannot speak for anyone but myself, I never accused you of being "holier than thou" and I am really not sure where this accusation began to surface. In this debate forum, we all have the right to express opinions, as well as the rights to challenge the opinions of others.

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Originally posted by Baptist in Richmond:


>>Just because someone doesn't like what I say,
>>doesn't mean that they need to make me out to
>>be some kind of person who thinks of themselves
>>as holier than thou...

Although I cannot speak for anyone but myself, I never accused you of being "holier than thou" and I am really not sure where this accusation began to surface. In this debate forum, we all have the right to express opinions, as well as the rights to challenge the opinions of others.

Oh...it's very much said in this forum, but not only that, through PM's...I'm tired of being told that I'm having an 'holier than thou' attitude, because I never have. I spoke my piece, just like everyone else on these last two threads, however, I have had nothing but names and accusations thrown my way because of my posts. And I will not take it any more.

 

[wizofoz]

Adopted Daughter

You have been asked several times to provide scriptural evidence for your statement, but you have yet to produce it.
When you place all remarried people in the same "adulterous sinners" category, you can expect a bit of backlash from it.
You can hide behind the "everyone's picking on me" statements if you wish, but but don't go throwing your opinion out as fact unless you're ready to back it up.

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Originally posted by wizofoz:
Adopted Daughter

You have been asked several times to provide scriptural evidence for your statement, but you have yet to produce it.
When you place all remarried people in the same "adulterous sinners" category, you can expect a bit of backlash from it.
You can hide behind the "everyone's picking on me" statements if you wish, but but don't go throwing your opinion out as fact unless you're ready to back it up.

Ever hear of the trinity? Show me in the Bible where it says that there is one...same thing. It is implied. Ever think of the words which are exchanged during vows?

"...For better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, til death do us part."

That is a covenant. Cannot be broken. It does not say until one of us committs adultery do us part, it does not say, until one of us gets sick of the other do us part...it says until death do us part. Two become one, and let no man pull asunder (however that phrase is).

I did provide scripture wizfoz. Perhaps you decided to skim past it. Marriage is a covanent made between three people, you, your spouse, and God. A covenant that is not to be broken, no matter what the situation. What do you think for better or for worse means?

In God's eyes you are still married until death (sometimes you need to refer to materials other than the bible for a better understanding of it), and if you remarry, it is adultery, no matter how long you've been married.

As for the 'poor me, everyone's picking on me'. I do not hide, I'm sorry. I will walk away when I know that my words will not be heard, and I do not like to speak (write) to hear myself. You haven't provided scriptural basis for your divorce due to battering, due to abandonment, due to anything. It says fornication. Do you realize who made that exception? It was Moses. Was it God's intent? NO, it wasn't. Now...who should we follow? Moses who made the exception because of hardened hearts, or God, who has instituted marriage, something that is never to be destroyed?

 

[hsmom3]

I not trying to pick on anyone at all, but just wanted to make it clear than Jesus gave the cause for fornication, not Moses.

Matthew 19
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

I think sometimes, it's how the King James is worded that makes it different for each of our interpretations. It's how we read it.

I know it is for me sometimes and some one else will bring to light something that I've missed before.

hsmom3

PS- Please don't go anywhere AdoptedDaughter. We need you here!

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

If Jesus said that, then he would be contridicting his father:

Malachi 2:16
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [ 2:16 Or [ his wife ] ] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break

If God hates divorce, then those who divorce are doing something that God hates...they are going against his will...going against his will is sin, is it not?

 

[wizofoz]

Originally posted by AdoptedDaughter:
If Jesus said that, then he would be contridicting his father:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Malachi 2:16
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [ 2:16 Or [ his wife ] ] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break

If God hates divorce, then those who divorce are doing something that God hates...they are going against his will...going against his will is sin, is it not? </font>[/QUOTE]Ok, is it going against God's will if an unsaved couple gets married? Are they marrying because they want to or because God wants them to? If it's not in God's will, then getting married would be the sin, right?
Would it be better to stay in that sin, or divorce and then get saved and find the one God wants you to be with, and get married to them?

 

[hsmom3]

Originally posted by AdoptedDaughter:
If Jesus said that, then he would be contridicting his father:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Malachi 2:16
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [ 2:16 Or [ his wife ] ] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break

If God hates divorce, then those who divorce are doing something that God hates...they are going against his will...going against his will is sin, is it not? </font>[/QUOTE]Sister, yes, I see what you are saying. I'm sorry, but I don't have a good theological answer for you. lol I know there are lots of places in the Bible that seem to contradict itself and we need to study it and come to our own convictions. I know that's what you and I both have done.

I do know that Jesus said it for a reason though.

hsmom3

 

[RomOne16]

When the question was posed to AdoptedDaughter in the other thread as to whether she would vote me and my family in as members of her church, she replied that she would not.

She then expanded on that answer a couple of posts later by sayng that she never said that she wouldn't vote my children in. That, in fact, she would vote them into her church.

So, how was she misunderstood?

I agree that she has the right to express her opinions, as do we all. It would be a shame if she quit posting, in this thread, or the board in general. Diversity of opinion makes things interesting and keeps us all learning and growing.

God bless,

Laura

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Is it possible, then, for me to state my opinion without being attacked? I have shown nothing but respect to all of you, and I will remain only if that respect is given back to me.

I was misunderstood in the fact that I would not vote for you or your husband (I would not vote at all) but your children I would vote.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

AdoptedDaughter, I for one am glad that you're here. You help deflect some of the heat off of me.

As far as it goes, I believe we are all entitled to our opinions and NOT ONE of us is going to agree on the specifics of the Bible and who does or does not qualify for membership. I'm sure that all of our churches have some form of exclusion to keep sin out of the church...maybe not Rev. Joshua's.

I can not say that I know all of the answers to the questions posed here. All I can say is, I try to live the best way I know how, and I pray for God to lead me in the right direction. Maybe He will and maybe He won't, it is His prerogative. Maybe He'll let me stray, but I hope that He won't let me go too far.

I think, a lot of times, we get too caught up in what we don't have in common rather than what we do. We all share the belief that Jesus Christ died for our sins. Regardless of what denomination we are, albeit, spiritually speaking it helps to have all of the truth, if we are trying to serve God to the best of our ability, using His written word as our guide, I feel like He will bless us.

God knows that we're just pathetic little worms compared to His greatness, so I believe that He shows pity on us for not being able to fully understand His word all of the time. That is one of the failings of being a sinner.

Thankfully, there will come a day when we all shall see eye to eye and we will all have the full understanding of God and His Word. The day will come when we can say, without fear, I was wrong about this, and you were wrong about this. Obviously, we all believe that we have the truth, or else we wouldn't belong to the group that we do, and there will be some who have been wrong in their interpretation while here on earth, but I believe with all of my heart that God will not look at our shortcomings, including our arrogance and ignorance, and He will see us through the shed blood of His Son as being perfect. That's what grace is all about.

God Bless. Brother James

 

[hsmom3]

Excellent post, Bro. James.

hsmom3

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

AdoptedDaughter writes:
&gt;&gt;Ever hear of the trinity? Show me in the Bible
&gt;&gt;where it says that there is one...same thing.

This is where you and I disagree: there are passages that distinctly identify each Member of the Trinity. I can show you specific evidence in the Bible that identify God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

&gt;&gt;That is a covenant. Cannot be broken. It does
&gt;&gt;not say until one of us committs adultery do us
&gt;&gt;part, it does not say, until one of us gets
&gt;&gt;sick of the other do us part...it says until
&gt;&gt;death do us part. Two become one, and let no
&gt;&gt;man pull asunder (however that phrase is).

Actually, there are at least a few instances where this "covenant" can be broken. That has already been established.

&gt;&gt;In God's eyes you are still married until death
&gt;&gt;(sometimes you need to refer to materials other
&gt;&gt;than the bible for a better understanding of
&gt;&gt;it), and if you remarry, it is adultery, no
&gt;&gt;matter how long you've been married.

What? Where does it say what you state in that first sentence? As for referring to "other materals" with respect to Biblical Doctrine, I completely reject that statement. God gave us everything we need in the Bible. What other materials do you recommend to augment what God has told us in the Bible?

Adultery is a forgivable sin, and it is a fact that the sin can be forgiven. Once the sin is forgiven, it is precisely that. Thank Almighty God that He is a Forgiving God.

But you take it a step further. You then deduce that every time a forgiven Christian is intimate with their new spouse, then it is adultery. That is not Scriptural. If we agree that the forgiven Christian is not to get divorced again, then this forgiven Christian must abide by the laws of marriage, regardless of whether or not it is their first spouse or not. The Apostle Paul was very specific about this in his comments "to the married." To imply otherwise cannot be Scripturally supported. If you maintain that the forgiven Christian that is remarried must remain celibate, then you must supply the Scripture that supports this.

&gt;&gt;You haven't provided scriptural basis for your
&gt;&gt;divorce due to battering, due to abandonment,
&gt;&gt;due to anything. It says fornication.

The same can be said about your belief that remarried Christians should remain celibate. If you qualify that as a "belief" then I am certainly okay with that. If you are offering this as doctrine, then I maintain that this is not Scriptural.

Please note that I never personally attacked you once in this post. I did the following:
1. Responded to your opinions with my opinions.
2. Requested that you amplify your statements.
3. Asked you to provide the Scriptural Basis for the beliefs you have stated.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Bro. James Reed writes:
&gt;&gt;All I can say is, I try to live the best way I
&gt;&gt;know how, and I pray for God to lead me in the
&gt;&gt;right direction. Maybe He will and maybe He
&gt;&gt;won't, it is His prerogative.

He absolutely will. I hold to the promise found in Proverbs 3:5-6. I have clinged to this Passage every time a big decision has come my way, and I am "batting a thousand" so far.
(I am sure that you knew that already!!)

 

[Maverick]

Actually, if you do not divorce for biblical reasons then you would be living in adultery because God did not approve the divorce.

I Cor 7 tells believers to reconcile or stay celibate.

Even in the exception clause, which is not an exception clause for NT believers but for the Jews the Word says that unjustly divorced woman becomes an adultress as well as the lad who marries her becomes an adulterer. It is not said, but I think we could conclude that the man who put her away also becomes an adulterer and his new wife an adultress.

The Mennonites and Bill Gothard (who has no grounds for divorce at all) hold this position that if you are living in adultery then you must separate or stay in sin and the Mennonites are Arminian so you would go to Hell in their belief.

There are biblical divorce situations anything outside of that does result in adultery.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Hello Maverick:

I would like for you to elaborate on the point you make.
Here is a scenario: a Christian is divorced and remarried. He/she has repented of the adultery, and is forgiven as God has promised. Are you saying that they must remain celibate?
I believe ( note that I said that I "believe" ) that if the Christian is remarried, then there is no way to reconcile the first marriage without getting divorced a second time. If the first divorce was wrong, then what about the second one? I believe that the Christian is to stay in the marriage and abide by the rules given in the same Scriptural Passage that you quote.
It has been established about a hundred times now that remarriage is adultery. But you have to admit that what's done is done. I maintain that God forgives sin. If the sin is forgiven, then it is forgiven. If you believe that, then how can you say that to continue in the marriage is perpetual adultery? That is not in the Bible.

What does Bill Gothard think about I Cor. 7:15?

Thanks for your input on this huge subject.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Divorce is NOT the unforgivable sin. You negate the power of the blood of Jesus if you think He forgives all sin EXCEPT divorce. The blood either cleanses us from ALL sins or NO sins.

JMHO,
Sue

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Maverick,

I couldn't have said it any better!

Thank you for your input!

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

For the outside sources:

we might as well through out all of the commentaries, since they are not the Bible.


Also, I never said that my opinions/beliefs were doctrine.