Which is worse?

[revmwc]

How is the person that fits your definition of depraved (which is pretty much right on) ever going to "accept" Christ? If one is spiritually dead, and morally corrupt, what would ever motivate him to love God?

The Drawing of the Holy Spirit and yet we see with King Agrippa one who rejected the convicting of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

Paul desired that all that heard that day would come to Christ.

Paul said
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by hearing and by the word of God as it is preached, and as prechers are sent. All of course is by the plan of God.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Notice verse 4 God leads us to repentence.

 

[J.D.]

The Drawing of the Holy Spirit and yet we see with King Agrippa one who rejected the convicting of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

Paul desired that all that heard that day would come to Christ.

Paul said
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by hearing and by the word of God as it is preached, and as prechers are sent. All of course is by the plan of God.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Notice verse 4 God leads us to repentence.

Nice proof-texting - finding texts to "prove" your preconceptions. Anyway, you haven't shown me how a person who is spiritually dead can be drawn by the Holy Spirit. By the way, what does "drawn" mean?

 

[J.D.]

Whoa there fella. I simply asked you a question. I never even suggested men are born sinless. I simply asked you to explain the nature of Lydia prior to God's opening of her eyes since the scripture describes her as one who worshipped the Lord? That is all. Can you explain that?

Yes, I can. And, as usual, you put words in my mouth. I didn't say that you suggested that "men are born sinless". Being born sinless is different than being born good, or not as bad as others. But I believe I represent your position correctly in that you believe all people are born "able" to believe.

 

[Forest]

Why just those two???? That is the whole problem there are not just the Calvanistic view and the Arminian view, their are those of us who reject parts of both teaching. I believe man is Totally Depraved from birth, "morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted" Spiritually dead, I reject the Arminian doctrine of lose of Salvation and the believe we are preserved in Christ once we have accepted Him as our savior. I don't believe grace is irresistable I believe that man can reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit through out His life and When He dies is found guilty of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit rejecting His call and Rejecting the Gift of Salvation that Christ gives to all who believe. I Believe HIS ATONEMENT was for everyone that He paid the price for everyones sin, that it must be accepted in order to be effective in ones life. I believe Election is based on God's Foreknowing us before the foundation of the world and based on that foreknowledge HE presdestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son. That we have free choice to chose for Christ or reject Christ, but God knows the choice we will make and that is why He predestinated us.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So there are other views beside the Calvanism and Arminianism which both views are flawed and the doctrines of Paul and the N.T. writers should be viewed without the prejudice of beliefs in those teachings.

God does have foreknowledge of all things. The theory that God choose an elect people because he looked down through time and saw the ones that would seek him is udderly false. Ps 53:2-3, God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back; they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. This was the condition of man that he choose from. Thats why God choose his elect because he could see that no one would choose him. 1 John 4:19, We love him, because he first loved us. It is amasing how many try to destroy God's grace by claiming that they are responsiable for their eternal salvation.

 

[Forest]

How is the person that fits your definition of depraved (which is pretty much right on) ever going to "accept" Christ? If one is spiritually dead, and morally corrupt, what would ever motivate him to love God?

Nothing can motivate the natural man to love God. We love him, because he first loved us, 1 John 4:19. No man can have a desire to serve God until God has quickened him from a death (spiritual death) in sins to a life in Christ, Eph 2:5.

 

[Forest]

Whoa there fella. I simply asked you a question. I never even suggested men are born sinless. I simply asked you to explain the nature of Lydia prior to God's opening of her eyes since the scripture describes her as one who worshipped the Lord? That is all. Can you explain that?

If she worshiped God, she was a born again child of God. The natural man cannot worship a spiritual God, 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Forest]

The Drawing of the Holy Spirit and yet we see with King Agrippa one who rejected the convicting of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

Paul desired that all that heard that day would come to Christ.

Paul said
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by hearing and by the word of God as it is preached, and as prechers are sent. All of course is by the plan of God.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Notice verse 4 God leads us to repentence.

According to 1 Cor 2:14 the natural man cannot be persuaded, drawn, taught, or any other thing to make him to see spriitual things as nothing but foolishness. The only way the natural man will ever worship God is after God quickens him from a death (spiritual death) in sins to a life in Christ. The natural man plays no part in the quickening, therefore it is by God's grace alone.

 

[Forest]

Nice proof-texting - finding texts to "prove" your preconceptions. Anyway, you haven't shown me how a person who is spiritually dead can be drawn by the Holy Spirit. By the way, what does "drawn" mean?

To draw is to drag, it is an irristable drawing.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, I can. And, as usual, you put words in my mouth. I didn't say that you suggested that "men are born sinless". Being born sinless is different than being born good, or not as bad as others.

Sorry, I took 'good' as 'sinless', because that is the typical general meaning, but you were just saying that I believe men are able to respond to their Creator's appeal to be reconciled. Why wouldn't they be, unless God's appeal was lacking, or unless of course God was judicially blinding them from the truth temporarily, or something (ref. Mark 4; Matt 13; Luke 12:39; Acts 28:21-28; Rom 11).

By the way, when else have I 'put words in your mouth.' Typically I'm very careful to go line by line and quote people's actual words as it is a pet peeve of mine to not have people respond to another's actual words.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, I can.

But will you? raying:

 

[revmwc]

According to 1 Cor 2:14 the natural man cannot be persuaded, drawn, taught, or any other thing to make him to see spriitual things as nothing but foolishness. The only way the natural man will ever worship God is after God quickens him from a death (spiritual death) in sins to a life in Christ. The natural man plays no part in the quickening, therefore it is by God's grace alone.

No man has ever sought God, God always seeks and draws men to Him. Those who accept through faith Jesus Christ receive eternal life.
God the Father planned it
God the Son Carried it out
God the Holy Spirit reveals it to man and He convicts and by that conviction and revelation men are saved. Man of course hears through the preaching (witness) of others. The Holy Spirit, like our conscience stirs within us the conviction of our need and we must react in Faith to that call or reject that call.

When we call upon the Lord for that Salvation we are Saved.

 

[revmwc]

Nice proof-texting - finding texts to "prove" your preconceptions. Anyway, you haven't shown me how a person who is spiritually dead can be drawn by the Holy Spirit. By the way, what does "drawn" mean?

Drawn the Holy spirit convicts like our consceince does us of the need for Salvation, He draws us by conviction.

 

[Forest]

No man has ever sought God, God always seeks and draws men to Him. Those who accept through faith Jesus Christ receive eternal life.
God the Father planned it
God the Son Carried it out
God the Holy Spirit reveals it to man and He convicts and by that conviction and revelation men are saved. Man of course hears through the preaching (witness) of others. The Holy Spirit, like our conscience stirs within us the conviction of our need and we must react in Faith to that call or reject that call.

When we call upon the Lord for that Salvation we are Saved.

The non-regenerated person, void of the Spirit, will never understand any thing that is of a spiritual nature. The only way the natural man will be able to descern spiritual things is after God has quickened him together with Christ and given him of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Forest]

Drawn the Holy spirit convicts like our consceince does us of the need for Salvation, He draws us by conviction.

The "draw" in John 6:44 means to "drag". That would make it an irresistable drawing. God only draws his elect.

 

[revmwc]

The "draw" in John 6:44 means to "drag". That would make it an irresistable drawing. God only draws his elect.

Well I wasn't drug I felt a convicting call and asked for Christ to save me

 

[Forest]

Are you actually saying that God, in genuine salvific love, provides EVERYTHING the NON-ELECT needs to be saved? Really?

Isn't salvific love effectual?

Wouldn't 'everything' include the enabling power and atonement?

I think you want to have your cake and eat it too.

If you are attempting to help God save the non-elect, you are wasting your time. Christ eternally saved all of the elect while on the cross, those that his Father gave him, John 6:37-41. The non-elect will never be saved. John 17:2, As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. God did not give Christ the non-elect. Thats God's purpose for electing a people.

 

[Forest]

John 6: 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him tha t sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Why were they given to him, Verse 40 "...all that see and Believe on Him, may have everlasting life and I will raise him up at the last day."

Paul answers why the Father Gave them to Christ in Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Whom the Father knew them He gave to Christ. He called them and justified them and glorifeid them all based on what He Foreknew. It comes down to what God knew and those He Predestineated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son and gave them to Christ as He tells us in John 6:37-41.
All who would believe were given to Christ, not all God selected randomly, but whom God Foreknew.

I know many don't see God's foreknowledge goes that far but Gos is Omnisiceint and God knows how many hairs we have on our head, do you really think God couldn't know who would Beleieve on the Son before they were even born? God knew man would fall and made the plan of salvation. Do you think He didn't know that before He created Adam and Eve that it would be them who fell and not Cain? Do you think God didn't know Cain would choose not to offer the proper sacrifice and kill Abel? He knew all of this therefore He knew what choices each and everyone would make before we were even born and He presdestined those HE KNEW would chose positively to Believe on HIS DEAR SON.

These are the people God had to choose from, as explained in Ps 53:2-3, God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back; they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. You will never understand the grace of God until you understand the depravity of man. Ps 10:4, The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God; God is not in all his thoughts. 1 Cor 2:14, The natural man cannot descern spiritual things, they are foolishness unto him.

 

[Forest]

No man has ever sought God, God always seeks and draws men to Him. Those who accept through faith Jesus Christ receive eternal life.
God the Father planned it
God the Son Carried it out
God the Holy Spirit reveals it to man and He convicts and by that conviction and revelation men are saved. Man of course hears through the preaching (witness) of others. The Holy Spirit, like our conscience stirs within us the conviction of our need and we must react in Faith to that call or reject that call.

When we call upon the Lord for that Salvation we are Saved.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit reveals it to the natural man and he convicts and by that conviction and revelation the natural man is saved? Are you saying that the natural man will call upon the Lord for salvation? These statements seem completly contrary to what 1 Cor 2:14 says about the natural man. The only way a natural man can descern anything of a spiritual nature like calling upon the Lord for salvation is after he is already quickened by God together with Christ and given the Holy Spirit.Eph 2:5.

 

[Forest]

Well I wasn't drug I felt a convicting call and asked for Christ to save me

What you felt must of been conversion and not regeneration. Regeneration comes before conversion.

 

[revmwc]

What you felt must of been conversion and not regeneration. Regeneration comes before conversion.

Regeneration is the point of salvation where having accepted Christ we are Born Spiritually.