Which KJVO are you?

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
The Word of God is the most important book we possess. Why would He send mass confusion with so many translations?

First of all, I don't see where all of the mass confusion is. Only in a small percentage of the population - which tends to be KJVO - is this confusion found.

Recently an unsaved woman I was witnessing to said this to me, "I don't believe that the Bible is God's Word because there are too many translations." How would you answer her?

With the Truth. A little research will instruct you as to why we have several translations.

 

[HankD]

Sister, God has the POWER to do ANYTHING! That does not give one ounce of credibility as to why He would/would not USE that power!

Amen Dr. Bob.

BTW why doesn't God just transport/resurrect us into the heavenlies when we are born again?

He has the power to do so.

HankD

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
I am a number 1 here in this poll. I used to use the NAS. Not too long ago I began using the KJV and I like it better. I noticed that it uses stronger language. For instance in 1 Corinthians 7 in the NAS we are told only to pray. But, the KJV tells us to FAST and pray. Lukewarm Christianity does not like to fast.

Do you honestly think that "fast" is removed from the NAS because they want to see lukewarm Christians? Fasting is mentioned 21 times in the New Testament of the NAS alone. So your line of argument appears to be severely flawed. Why else do you think that the word fast isn't here?

Also in 1 Peter 3 I was confused for a long time because someone inserted the word merely. This contradicts 1 Timothy 2. Once I read in the KJV I noticed there was no contradiction.

I don't see a contradiction in the NAS - we talked about that in an earlier thread.

I know almost nothing about Greek. So, I am going by faith and a comparison of a modern version against the KJV.

Or you could learn a little bit about the Greek and then you'd know the truth - you'd be able to compare the Greek with both the KJV and the modern translations. It's almost as if someone says, "I know nothing about astronomy. I am going by faith and a comparison of a flat earth (which I can see) and a round earth (which is just silly!) I'm going to go by faith and believe in a flat earth." In both cases, a little bit of education will really help you understand Truth. And isn't that what we are ALL seeking after?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Every other year I teach a "Understanding Greek for English Bible Readers" class. Takes a few weeks to be able to pronounce the words and recognize basic forms (nouns, verbs, etc).

Then use an interlinear NT - I love George Ricker Berry's because it is the 1550 Stephanus Text, under each word is best modern English and KJV1769 in column for comparison. Plus a lexicon (dictionary) and work on synonyms.

EVERY educated person 100 years ago knew Latin and Greek BEFORE they were allowed into college. It seems that our drift away from scholarly pursuits and historical languages is coming home to roost in this generation.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Pastor_Bob:
Group #1
This is a group of people who know little or nothing at all about the text issue.

This should actually be the opening line for all groups.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
I know almost nothing about Greek.

Exactly. That would be why you lack understanding in the 1 Pet 3 text and why it isn't a parallel with 1 Tim. Also, it explains your lack of understanding about the 1 Cor. 7 text. No surprise here.

 

[Daniel David]

Dr. Bob, why does God allow evil? He has the power to remove it.

Why did God allow a haughty, perverted king to commission men who baptized babies and persecuted baptists to translate his word? He had the power to stop them.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Dr. Bob, why does God allow evil? He has the power to remove it.

Why did God allow a haughty, perverted king to commission men who baptized babies and persecuted baptists to translate his word? He had the power to stop them.

You are side-tracking the conversation. God has been good to us, He has given us a Bible in English.

I do not need to to study Greek. In the future I may study it with my children in homeschool, at this point I am thankful that the Lord gave me a Bible in English.

 

[timothy 1769]

I have seen more KJV preferred/onlies in real life who act like Christ. In my experience most MV proponents (or at least the ones who like to argue about it) are worldly, sarcastic, condescending and prideful concerning their real or imagined superiority in education and/or intelligence. Many appear to enjoy mocking and belittling people.

This observation had A LOT to do with me first considering the KJVO position.

Thanks Pastor Bob!

 

[CoachC]

I have enjoyed reading the different points of view in this thread.

I believe the KJB is the inerrant, inspired word of God. I guess I'm a moderate in the KJBO only crowd because I believe you can be saved out of any version. Faith in God and his Grace are what provide Salvation. People get saved out of tracts and billboards and by hearing. Christ does the saving always has and until the judgement always will.

Nevertheless, here is why I use King James Only.

1) This is the Bible that the plan of salvation was given to me out of. I found Jesus Christ in the KJV and in all of my reading of other Bibles I have never felt the spiritual connection that I have with KJB.

2) There has been a King James Version since 1611. We have had Wycliffe bibles, Luther Bibles, and countless other versions yet this one, almost 400 years later is still with us. If it was all that bad God wouldn't have let it continue. How many other books calling themselves Bibles have come and gone.

3)The King James has more people taking shots at it than any other version that calls itself a bible. If such a large percentage of the religious organization is taking pot shots at it. It has to be good. The religious hierarchy of Jesus' time hated him also.

4) Faith- I really don't have the scholarly background of many that are here but by faith I believe the King James is the Bible.

5) I don't want to knock people who disagree with the KJBO view. Each believer is responsible for the truth they have been given. If God uses one of these other versions to feed you then have at it. However I do resent the implication that those who do believe that the KJB is the bible are intellectual midgets. It comes across as conceited and arrogant.

Thank you for posting this, it has been most informative.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
You are side-tracking the conversation. God has been good to us, He has given us a Bible in English.

I do not need to to study Greek. In the future I may study it with my children in homeschool, at this point I am thankful that the Lord gave me a Bible in English. [/QB]

He has - several actually. The KJV, the NIV, the NASB, the Message. I'm thankful for all of these. I would again suggest that you try to learn Greek - you'd be able to at least make sense of some of the issues that you have, as was mentioned earlier.

Dr. Bob - I wonder if some of our more mature high school students would enjoy me teaching a beginning Greek class. I have three or four who would definitely enjoy something like that. Have you ever seen young people take the class?

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
You are side-tracking the conversation. God has been good to us, He has given us a Bible in English.

I do not need to to study Greek. In the future I may study it with my children in homeschool, at this point I am thankful that the Lord gave me a Bible in English.

He has - several actually. The KJV, the NIV, the NASB, the Message. I'm thankful for all of these. I would again suggest that you try to learn Greek - you'd be able to at least make sense of some of the issues that you have, as was mentioned earlier.

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I was waiting for someone to show me what I was missing. But, so far no one has taken the time.

The comments I have received so far have been, "If you only knew Greek then you would understand," "You don't know Greek that is why you are confused," etc. All to sidetrack the discussion, to make the other person feel lower.

But, so far no "scholars" have taken any time to explain to those who know less than they do. I wonder why that is.

Also, please show me from the Bible a verse that teaches that a person must learn Greek?

Since it has never been explained from those who know Greek will someone explain to me who does, why is fasting not listed in 1 Corinthians 7 in the NAS?

And why does 1 Peter 3 tell women that it is ok to wear gold and pearls when 1 Timothy says it is not ok in the NAS?

1 Cor 8:1, "Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth."

Eph 3:19, "And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God."

 

[Dr. Bob]

The whooshing sound you hear . .

Why Christians should study the Bible in its original languages?

Simple. Whenever you translate words, phrases, sentences, books from a language into another language (call the "receptor") there are going to be many many differences.

Whole ideas may be lost. Phrases that were an idiom of the language may mean NOTHING in the new language.

The is RADICALLY needed between Greek and English, since the structure of these two languages is not cognate.

So if you are going to study what GOD said, you need to go to His Word - NOT a translation of it where someone ELSE has put in their sentiments - and see it for yourself!

Short quiz on language and you'll see why you need to learn some (1) MODERN English as well as (2) Hebrew and (3) Greek:

1. Acts 28:12 KJV1769 revision "And landing at Syracuse, we tarried there three days. And from thence we fetched a compass, and came to Rhegium: and after one day the south wind blew, and we came the next day to Puteoli"

Where did the ship get the compass? What good did the compass do them?

Answer:

2. Jeremiah 17:10 KJV1769 revision "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

What are the reins? What is God doing with our reins?

Answer:

3. Revelation 22:19 KJV 1769 revision "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

How many Greek texts out of 5500 have the phrase "book of life"? How many of the 5-7 that Erasmus had used this phrase?

Answers:

 

[skanwmatos]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
1. Acts 28:12 KJV1769 revision "And landing at Syracuse, we tarried there three days. And from thence we fetched a compass, and came to Rhegium: and after one day the south wind blew, and we came the next day to Puteoli"

Where did the ship get the compass? What good did the compass do them?

tr.v. com·passed, com·pass·ing, com·pass·es
To make a circuit of; circle: The sailboat compassed the island.
To surround; encircle. See Synonyms at surround.
To understand; comprehend.
To succeed in carrying out; accomplish. See Synonyms at reach.
To scheme; plot. American Heritage Dictionary.

2. Jeremiah 17:10 KJV1769 revision "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

What are the reins? What is God doing with our reins?

Root word for "renal" of or relating to the kidneys.

3. Revelation 22:19 KJV 1769 revision "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

How many Greek texts out of 5500 have the phrase "book of life"? How many of the 5-7 that Erasmus had used this phrase?[/QB]

It is found in the Greek manuscripts noted by H. C. Hoskier as 57 and 141.

The Bohairic Version; Ambrose (4th Century); and the commentaries of Primasius and Haymo (6th and 9th centuries, respectively). Further, it is supported by Saint Ambrose (340-397 AD), by Bachiarius (late fourth century), and by Primasius in his commentary on Revelation (552 AD)"

Libro (book) is the reading of the Latin mss. Codex Fuldensis (sixth century); Codex Karolinus (ninth century); Codex Oxoniensis (twelfth to thirteenth century); Codex Ulmensis (ninth century); Codex Uallicellanus (ninth century); Codex Sarisburiensis (thirteenth century); and the corrector of Codex Parisinus (ninth century).

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:


EVERY educated person 100 years ago knew Latin and Greek BEFORE they were allowed into college. It seems that our drift away from scholarly pursuits and historical languages is coming home to roost in this generation.

Absolutely. The move is toward ambiguity in language. Even in the church we have the same thing. It's much like giving the congregation what they want so they will come, rather than what they need so they will be equipped to lead others.

If I rememebr right, Matthew Henry started studying Greek at the age of ten.

I was told that several years ago a major leader from Germany for the Jehovah's Witnesses came to Christ by studying the Greek text using what he had learned in college in Germany.

Over and over again I hear parents telling me how school should be fun and their children should not have very much homework. Years ago I taught high school with a teacher that held to that philosophy. I once told him that he may pat them on the back and tell them they are great, but society will really tell them how well they are prepared. It is the differing philosophies of being well prepared versus getting through and getting the degree. So many have degrees but not much temperature.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Daniel David:
Dr. Bob, why does God allow evil? He has the power to remove it.

Why did God allow a haughty, perverted king to commission men who baptized babies and persecuted baptists to translate his word? He had the power to stop them.

You are side-tracking the conversation. God has been good to us, He has given us a Bible in English.

I do not need to to study Greek. In the future I may study it with my children in homeschool, at this point I am thankful that the Lord gave me a Bible in English. </font>[/QUOTE]The original manuscripts were in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, None were in English. The English is a translation. You cannot ever translate without interpreting. The interpreters/translaters believed in infant baptism that is the reason why we have the transliterated word baptize from the Greek word baptizo and baptism from baptisma. Baptize and baptism are not translated words but a transliteration. How else do you think they could get around infant baptism?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
I was waiting for someone to show me what I was missing. But, so far no one has taken the time.

It is Christmas Eve, you know. Perhaps your taking the time will illuminate you greatly!

The comments I have received so far have been, "If you only knew Greek then you would understand," "You don't know Greek that is why you are confused," etc. All to sidetrack the discussion, to make the other person feel lower.

Not trying to make you feel lower, but to encourage you to spend the time studying. Time well-spent.

But, so far no "scholars" have taken any time to explain to those who know less than they do. I wonder why that is.

First, because it's Christmas Eve. Second, because this information is easily found in Bible comentaries and other sources on the internet.

Also, please show me from the Bible a verse that teaches that a person must learn Greek?

There's not one, just as there is no Bible verse that says a person must use the KJV. Learning Greek is just good sense, especially considering the original souces.

Since it has never been explained from those who know Greek will someone explain to me who does, why is fasting not listed in 1 Corinthians 7 in the NAS?

The Greek word for fasting is not found in the best documents. The NAS was translated after many, many more of the Greek sources were found, and through hard work, we've been able to come closer to what the original manuscripts looked like. Fasting isn't in there. The fact is, though, that fasting is found over 20 times in the NT alone in the NAS, so we know that it wasn't a specific bias by the NAS - this was a translation choice to use the best manuscripts. We know more about gravity and the moon now than 400 years ago, so we can make more accurate statements about it. The same goes with the Greek manuscripts.

And why does 1 Peter 3 tell women that it is ok to wear gold and pearls when 1 Timothy says it is not ok in the NAS?

http://www.baptistboard.com/boards/ubb-get_topic-f-4-t-001143.html

There's a whole thread on that.

1 Cor 8:1, "Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth."

You're not even quoting the whole verse, much less the context.

Eph 3:19, "And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God."

How can we most accurately understand about the love of Christ? By being ignorant to Truth?

 

[timothy 1769]

So many have degrees but not much temperature.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:


EVERY educated person 100 years ago knew Latin and Greek BEFORE they were allowed into college. It seems that our drift away from scholarly pursuits and historical languages is coming home to roost in this generation.

Absolutely. The move is toward ambiguity in language. Even in the church we have the same thing. It's much like giving the congregation what they want so they will come, rather than what they need so they will be equipped to lead others.

If I rememebr right, Matthew Henry started studying Greek at the age of ten.

I was told that several years ago a major leader from Germany for the Jehovah's Witnesses came to Christ by studying the Greek text using what he had learned in college in Germany.

Over and over again I hear parents telling me how school should be fun and their children should not have very much homework. Years ago I taught high school with a teacher that held to that philosophy. I once told him that he may pat them on the back and tell them they are great, but society will really tell them how well they are prepared. It is the differing philosophies of being well prepared versus getting through and getting the degree. So many have degrees but not much temperature. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with you. We are planning on learning Latin next year, with one of our homeschool students. Then in the future we may study Greek. My husband studies Hebrew on his own. For now though I will continue to read the KJV Bible.

Scott Emerson,
We have the commentaries and expository dictionaries but I would not consider that I know Greek just from owning and reading these books.

 

[HankD]

The Greek word for fasting is not found in the best documents

Just a thought, perhaps rather than use the word "best" we should use some other term which does not impute a quality to a manuscript which is subjective.

Personally I see "best" as being Byzantine.

Even "older" is better than "best", it is objective (although the determination of "old" is very often a subjective matter sometimes varying between individuals by centuries).

When we use terms of quality which is subjective we may unwittingly cause animosity. I realize it is unavoidable in some cases.

There is so much friction about this matter that many simply close their eyes and ears and learn little or nothing.

Not that I am without sin, but I'm not casting a stone either just making a suggestion which I intend to try and do myself.

HankD