Not sure who this is addressed to, but how does it pertain to the op?
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Which view really exalts man?
- Thread starter webdog
- Start date
Are they sheep because they are called to believe or are they sheep because they believe thus God calls them?
For finding fault with them. What fault? They had said, "All that the Lord has said we will do" but did it not through unbelief.
when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
What is different about this new covenant?
And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Is there a possibility for unbelief under the new covenant?
For this the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Is that above what makes the elect the elect?
Is there any implication in that statement that they have to believe or will they be believers because of the action of God?
to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.----Is the purpose their salvation or is the purpose something else that requires them to be conformed to the image of his son Jesus?
Does this view elevate God or man?
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I think we see some of what I brought up in the OP concerning the elevation of man. To even allude to man paying for "an infinity" for their sins alludes to man being infinite...on par with Christ.
I say man in not infinite and cannot repay God for his crime.
Determinists say man can pay an infinte payment to God.
Who exalts man?
I say man in not infinite and cannot repay God for his crime.
Determinists say man can pay an infinte payment to God.
Who exalts man?
This post to me proves why I believe this comes about by; The faith of Jesus Christ rather than our faith in Jesus Christ. Our faith in is the same as saying all that the Lord has said we will do.
Whereas the faith of Jesus is what God does. 2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Whereas the faith of Jesus is what God does. 2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Man is not infinite but he is eternal and the unbeliever will spend eternity paying (as you call it) for his sin. He cannot undo his sin, Jesus' blood has not covered it, so he will keep paying and paying and paying for all eternity. The wages of his sin is death eternal (the second death). If he could ever repay God for his sin, I suppose his punishment would end at some point, but because he can't, his punishment is eternal.
I'm really having trouble understanding what point you're trying to make though.
Then why does anyone ever go to hell?
I'm guessing...... They don't believe....
then.....Wasn't that unbelief paid for on the cross?
and....What is being accomplished with the sinners in hell?
What you are saying is not biblical. What I said was from the Bible. An infinite amount of time meaning never ending or endless. Man will spend an infinite amout(endless) in hell to pay for his sin.
Rev. 20:12 "the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
John 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
Those that reject Jesus(unbelievers) will be judged in the last day according to his works.
Jesus came to save, not condemn.
"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
(John 3:17-18 ESV)
People are condemned for their sin. Jesus came to save the world. Those that don't believe are condemned already because of his sin. If Jesus payment is effective for everyone, then no one would be in hell. If Jesus payment is effective for everyone and people spend eternity in hell to pay for their unbelief, then Jesus' payment wasn't for all sin and also the cross would condemn people.
By your own admission God is eternally unpaid? If God's wrath is never satisfied against sin, how is death and the curse ever vanquished?
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I have not redefined the word. Go look it up. Infinite time in hell mans endless. from webster: extending indefinitely : endless
also, eternity's definition. "infinite time"
So yes, man will spend an infinite amount of time in hell.
Now, what about the rest of what was said.
God's wrath against unbelievers is NEVER mitigated. His wrath burns against them forever.
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
By confusing Hell and the curse placed on the Earth, you are making a category violation. By your logic, men could not suffer punishment for all eternity, since "death" is never "vanquished"
I don't get your point. We can never repay God. That's why we need a Savior, correct? Where are you getting this idea of us paying God?
Heavensdad's comments are spot on. God's justice is satisfied by his eternal wrath on sinners.
The charge that that fact elevates man since he is able to satisfy God's justice is laughable. There is simply no valid premise for this thread.
I'm getting the idea from those who say we are in hell as payment TO God for our crime. As you said, that is less than a sufficient payment meaning God goes for an eternity unpaid for the crime against him. He requires blood for sin, and like the OT atonement that was never satisfactory, man's blood is never satisfactory. Only Christ's.
Garbage. God's wrath was appeased at the cross against sin. He is never satisfied by His eternal wrath on those in hell.
Is man infinite? Is our crime against an infinite God also infinite? Can man's existence be measured?
Your Scripture is dealing with judgement, not expiation.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
You are so spot on with the yawn WD.
Just to be perfectly clear, my yawn in agreement is with respect to the following comment:
"Of course. Any time someone impugns the righteous nature of my Lord, and tries to leave Him at the bidding of sinful man, I get (rightfully) irritated."
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No, man is not infinite/eternal meaning that he has always existed and will always exist like God. Man will spend an infinite(meaning "extending indefinitely : endless") amount of time in hell for his sins if he is not a believer.
First of all, you haven't given us any Scripture to backup your statements. I have. You haven't dealt with them. Of course what I said deals with Judgement. I's the final judgment that people that are sinners will be sent to hell. Go back and address my post. You still haven't done it.
I would love to see you backup your premise with Scripture.
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Garbage. John 3.36 says the wrath of God remains on the one who does not obey the Son. So was only part of his wrath "appeased" at the cross?
And if God's justice is not satisfied by eternal punishment for unbelievers, is there no justice in their case? You're wrong, justice is served by his eternal wrath on sinners (which is another way of saying his justice is satisfied). Romans 2.1-5.
And how again does that exalt man?
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin death;
Gen 2:17 YLT for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die,
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Luke 16:22,23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, (Lifting eyes implies resurrection.)
Does the wages of sin come in stages? Without wrath and with wrath?
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Gen 2:17 YLT for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die,
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Luke 16:22,23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, (Lifting eyes implies resurrection.)
Does the wages of sin come in stages? Without wrath and with wrath?
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
It was a clarification......do not move the goal posts on me:thumbs: