Thanks for another "hit and run" response!
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Your past posts speak for themselves Draggon ...
I appreciate the complement regarding the clarity of my writing! If you're bothered - in a political sense - by some of what I've written then that may mean I'm right on target. Based upon the views you present it's very likely that I'm on the opposite side.
Fortunately, we have in common our belief in Christ Jesus and our trust in His salvation.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... especially your views on being pro torture or should I say torture lite in your view..you seem to not use the bible as a touchstone but rather human laws ...
Where do you get this stuff, ASLANSPAL? I don't support torture and have repeatedly made very clear comments on this board against it. You seem to have some bent on twisting those comments into an exact opposite meaning. I've expounded upon the applicable laws and regulations - factual information - of which I'm aware - to confirm where our nation truly stands on these issues. Not everyone knows or cares what the laws are and, these days, it's easy to make the wrong conclusions. It's my belief that this stand is rooted in the compassionate nature of our nation and is strongly influenced by the Christian belief and teaching of its citizens who've led the way in humane treatment of their enemies. I find it offensive that many want to characterize our nation, our military, and our leaders as being aligned in policy and practice with the likes of many of our enemies who truly never had any respect for human life. I often wonder how such people would treat detainees when faced with the reality of doing so.
Why do you keep lying about my comments by suggesting I support some form of torture? Is it because you can not admit you did not understand the subject matter much less my comments about it? Is it because you know nothing of the process of capturing or handling detainees except, of course, what the Washington Post brings to you eager palate?
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... ...and your selective libertarian you [INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS DELETED] ...
I'm a Republican by political party affiliation but I do have some common viewpoints with the Libertarian party on certain issues. I don't take sides on issues because of party membership or because of personalities - I take sides based on the issues. How about you, ASLANSPAL? Are you 100% one party in all your view points? Maybe you are! I'm guessing most people aren't 100% supportive of every item on their party's platform nor their candidates. I do find that I'm aligned with Republicans verses Democratic most of the time. I do long for a party more like the true conservative Republican of several decades ago - one that's firmly against big government but hands down will take Republican of Democratic policy any day.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... for the oil companies but then neglect to mention we subsidize them and let them off the hook in many areas ..I had to call you on that one ...
You were the one who found yourself corrected by the inaccuracies of your allegations. You can't sort out the facts of subsidies verses benefits nor the reasons for them. You can't understand the difference between standing against these kinds of programs verses fairly judging them and the participants in light of the programs as they exist under law. You can't understand that government subsidies have existed in many sectors of our economy. You imply wrong doing of businesses by virtue of their participation in legal programs designed to foster policies favorable to the public. I disagree with most of these programs but can't fault the participants for them and that's a big difference!
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... and your stupid policy of stay the course goes along with the ultimate unreality of bush and other bushbots...incompetence and bad policy is the result in Iraq and the troops have had to compensate for bad leadership...we should have done as William Buckley stated declared victory and brought the troops home..
What do you not normally capitalize the President's name? Is it a statement of disrespect for the person?
No, with no disrespect to William Buckley's comments, we should not have brought the troops home. It isn't time yet! No, President Bush is not incompetent - the latest liberal cry - nor do our troops have to compensate for bad leadership. Our country's policy as defined by Congressional resolution - the people's will through their elected representatives - and by their continued funding is being implemented. No everything turns out the way you hope or plan in fighting a war. In fact, I'll bet most of the time it doesn't. The long term is what counts most.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... now it really is CIVIL WAR and you cannot spin out of that unless you want to use bush/cheney talking points. ...
There is not a civil war in Iraq and I hope there will not be one. What do you hope for? There is on-going attempts by terrorists to disrupt the progress made and there is on-going struggle between old rival clans. There's also a whole lot of Iraq that's in relative peace and a whole lot of people working very hard to make something positive of their new found freedom from tyranny. No doubt it's a difficult situation and we knew it would be. They have a functioning government now that's taking a much more active role in maintaining order and countering the terrorist threat. You'd do well to spend some time reading some reports from people on the ground in Iraq other than liberal news reporters you seem to favor. It would help bring some clarity to your thinking on the subject.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... Bottom line you can support the troops but not the incompetent leaders and greed that is going on over there ..waste of billions of dollars and waste of men and women's lives and limbs blown off to smithereens ...according to your plan in staying the course it will mean 2 trillion dollars and more lives and limbs blown off...I say enough is enough..
Wars are inherently wasteful and people get hurt and killed in them. World War II was extremely costly in dollars and lives. There was much waste and much lost. Yet there was much gained and much saved.
You don't need to lecture me about lives and limbs, ASLANSPAL, because I've seen it up close. It doesn't matter whether its a day long or a decade long or a major battle or a small ambush. It's never easy to accept. To those who pay the price and their loved ones it's just very very expensive.
No nation in their right mind sends people off to war without the knowledge that some won't come back and among those that do many won't ever be the same. If we don't have the stomach for it or the means to pursue it we shouldn't start. If we start we need to finish it. Most troops don't want to hear about quitting. They want victory - complete victory - and they'll hold on to the cause a whole lot longer than most weak minded people watching it on television here at home.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... YOU G
VER THERE AND STAY THE COURSE ..ALSO TEACH THE MILITARY NOT TO LIE AND DECIEVE PARENTS LIKE THE TILLMANS AND OTHERS...COULD YOU DO THAT DRAGGOON...but no you need to spin here at home and push the propaganda forward which is the bush mantra. ...
Don't you know that all capital letters signifies shouting or is that what you're doing now? Yes, you're shouting again, ASLANSPAL! Calm done before you pop a fuse or make a serious mistake on one of those airplanes you're fixing.
Do you despise our military so much that all you can focus upon is the short comings of some of its members in difficult situations?
No, at my age, etc. it's very unlikely I'll be making a trip to Iraq as a member of our armed forces but you can bet your boots - not combat boots because you don't have those - I'll be doing all that I can to support those that are going just like I did when it was my time and my Father who'd gone in previous wars stayed home. I wish I could but it's probably a good thing for this country they didn't need a lot of fellows like me right now. But, what about you, ASLANSPAL, are you still young enough to serve?
The Tillman case is being investigated again - the fifth formal investigation I believe - this time by Army CID upon referral from the Army's Inspector General. The Army released this information last week as I recall. This signifies a criminal investigation which is a serious matter. If evidence of wrong doing is found I'm sure charges will be made. I hope nothing is found - not that it is covered up but that there's nothing to be found - but there's always a possible it may be. If it is, then I hope those guilty will be charged, tried, punished according to the law. If not, I hope the matter can finally be closed.
The nation sends its troops to fight and its the citizens who need to encourage them to stay the course no matter what the cost. If they can't do that why should those who are called to go give what they must? The worst thing for troop morale is the belief that no one supports the reason they're fighting. Then comes the question of why to continue. Oh, how our enemies love this corruption!
Do you not understand the meaning of service to your country? Do you not understand that nearly any veteran who's been in war understands what it's about. You need to spend some time talking with some troops one of one about how they feel about what they're doing and why they're doing it.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... It is idiotic to say if you support the war you must support the president...baloney.
This is Bush's war and he is in his bunker spinning unreality and trying to cheer-lead his way out of it...well guess what george just because you say it or cheerlead it does not make it so.
Allawi said it best :
Iyad Allawi, the former Iraqi prime minister, told the BBC over the weekend that with at least 50 Iraqis being killed every day, the country was already in a state of civil war and was heading to the “point of no return”.
“If this is not civil war, then God knows what civil war is,” Mr Allawi said. “We are in a terrible civil conflict now.” ...
You capitalized the President's name here! That's good!
Allawi and the BBC aren't on my list of credible sources but, concerning spin, you can keep on reading those BBC news reports if you like that kind of stuff.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... You bring up war and Vietnam all the time Draggon ...
You're uncomfortable with the Viet Nam war aren't you? I mention Viet Nam when it's relevant to the discussion. Some people - perhaps including yourself - would prefer that it was forgotten in history much like the Korean war seems to have been. Some of us who were there - some more than once - don't intend to let that happen. That's especially true whenever we note some history in the making that has some parallels to experiences we've had in the past. We're bound by duty to speak up on behalf of those who serve today if for no other reason. I'll also be a soldier whether I'm on active duty or not.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... get over yourself and do something about it ...
One reason I take up valuable time commenting on this board is because I do want to do something about it - something that matters for the people today and tomorrow - by speaking my mind on relevant issues where I believe I have something to contribute. That means dealing with people, like you, with whom I disagree on many issues. I don't do this for self serving interests because, from a personal perspective, there are much more rewarding endeavors to pursue. If I can get just one person to think straight on these issues then it'll be worth the time. Convincing you is not my goal. You just provide the opportunites and, for that, I thank you very much!
There are many things I know nothing about, some a know something about, and a few a know a bit more about. There are none about which I consider myself an expert even among those I once might have thought that way. The older I get the less I know. It's amazing! No, I don't need to get over myself much any more. I wonder, ASLANSPAL, if you are humble about your own self?
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... quit blaming others for the lose in Vietnam ...
Which others? What blame? What loss? There are many factors involved in the outcome of the Viet Nam war. It's the subject of entire libraries worth of writing. I've experienced some of it, read a lot about it, discussed it with a lot of fellow veterans, and formulated some basic thoughts about it all. But, no, ASLANSPAL, I don't go around with bitterness in my heart looking to blame the world for me, and others like me, having spent time there. You've been watching some of those Hollywood movies about the war haven't you? I'll bet you've got me all figured out from those movies.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... thankyou for your service..
You're welcome but many others besides me deserve far far more thanks. It was a duty to serve. Many gave much more to their country. We should be forever grateful to them all.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... and all my families service ...
Thanks to all who've served and who are serving today.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... but the reality is we lost ...
No, ASLANSPAL, the war was lost but we did not loose it. We did, however, leave our allies to fend for themselves against an enemy that honored no part of the peace treaty we negotiated before leaving. Shame on us for that failure!
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... and that reason is the majority of the Vietnamese did not want to be occupied ...
Ask, the Vietnamese who fled Viet Nam in 1975 and since if they're happy with the way things turned out. We did not occupy Viet Nam while we there. Where did you get that idea? You're must thinking of the French occupation of 100 years. Our purpose in being there was to help facilitate independence and free elections. We tried very hard but things didn't end up like we hoped. Our involvement was not without mistakes and problems but our cause was right just like it is today in Iraq. You'd be surprised how many people in Viet Nam today are very positive about America and how many hope for a much better future.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... and they used the logical vehicle at the time to rid the country of occupation ...
What "vehicle" might that be? You make it sound like the entire country - viturally every man, women, and child - wanted America out of their country and the Communist in power. Where were you when those last days unfolded? Where were you during the first ten years after the end of the war? Where you asleep? Do you have any idea how many people - Vietnamese people - died in Viet Nam fighting the war? You really need to get a different history book!
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... and you left never to return but now you can return and reconcile or you can whine about staying the course because of the terrible mistake in Vietnam...bunk! ...
Like I've mentioned before, ASLANSPAL, I've been back to Viet Nam several times since the end of the war for several reasons including to explore business opportunities. You know nothing of my experiences during the war of since so I think you should just stop trying to counsel me on this. I'm handling my little problems for that war just fine thanks to the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
By "terrible mistake" you must mean our failure to support our allies in the final three years they carried the war on thier own, correct?
I have nothing to reconcile in Viet Nam. My former enemies are not my enemies now. The country is composed of people who fought on both sides and a whole bunch more born after the end of the war. I have no fight with any of them. I have nothing to apologize for or feel guilty about for being there serving my country when we were at war and perfoming my duties as a soldier.
I've met with a bunch of people at various levels - low and high - over there who experienced war on both sides. I'm comfortable with them all. I'd rather sit down and eat with some former NVA or VC soldiers that some of our own who opposed the war in the streets here. They have more character, courage, and determination. I respect them as ex-soldiers.
In case you haven't heard, Viet Nam and the United States re-established diplomatic relations some time ago.
You just don't have a clue on this subject, ASLANSPAL! Perhaps it is you that needs to reconcile something to do with Viet Nam. Is there something about that war that troubles you? Maybe you should work at better understanding the difference and relationships between Viet Nam - the land, Vietnamese - the people, and the Viet Nam War - the conflict. You have them all lumped together and piled on one side of the scale.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... but you would rather stay on your high horse and be a monday morning qb with the stupid "stay the course" propaganda ...which it is obvious the leadership we currently have cannot stay the course because they cannot plan for an occupation ...but hey! they and their cronies are raking in billions ...
I absolutely believe we need to stay the course on every goal our country commits itself to endure. I make no apology for that nor do I intend to slow do my pace of so doing. The problem you have is understanding what's required to accomplish the goal and a willingness to sustain the effort. I'll bet you're a whole lot more of a Monday morning quarterback than me in this respect. In fact, you seem to do a very good job at finding fault with everything we've done in Iraq. That's what a Monday morning quarterback does isn't it? If anything I might be classified as an ex-player turned fan cheering for my team.
Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... which btw as a libertarian I do not hear much out of you about the waste...how come...oh thats right we cannot disagree with the incompetent commander in chief we must "stay the course" and not question him.
I have no problem disagreeing with current administration policy based upon facts and often do. I do have problems with unfounded attacks on people's character - our leaders - because of different political affiliations or just plain disdain. There are many things I don't like about how our government functions. I think it's too big, too expensive, too involved in our daily lives, etc. but blindly and stupidly blame all that on one man who's in office today any more than I did President Clinton - on the opposite end of my favorites - for the similar condition in effect during his term. Each of these men have their faults but neither was incompetent.
We must stay the course for the benefit of the nation - not the President - and those - collectively - who serve it and those - again collectively - who will inherit the result of our efforts.
Several times on this board I've noted that the real problems we face are of our - the citizens - own making. We're the ones that keep asking our government - especially the federal government - to take care of us, to educate us, the guarantee us work, to protect us everywhere all the time, to make everything affordable, to regulate every problem we might face, etc. Politicians of every party are all very eager to promise us these things, collect our money, and parcel it back out according to what gets the most votes less a whole lot of handling fees.
Support the cause and support the troops!
Pray for us all!
