Who are the Children of promise ?

[savedbymercy]

dw:

I never denied the truth the verse teaches but placed that truth in its proper context!

I already knew the context, that is where I found the Truth of what I am stating, in the context !

The truth of the context is that AMONG ETHNIC ISRAEL the only children of promise are TWICE BORN Jews as this context has ETHNIC ISRAEL as its focus and that is precisely why there is no examples of GENTILES given in this context to illustrate that truth.

The Truth of the context is that Ethnic Israel considered in and of itself, are not the Children of God. The Children of the promise are, which are comprised of both jew and gentile.

The only way an ethnic jew means anything to God, is if they are born again, a child of promise, the same if any gentile means anything to God.

Being Abraham's seed , a jew merely by fleshly birth, means nothing. God has never made any promise to any jew or group of jews, in and of the fact they were only jews by physical birth.

The objection that Paul is responding to is, if God made these promises (vv. 4-5) to ETHNIC ISRAEL then has God failed to keep His Promises since ETHNIC ISRAEL

Thats the issue, they were not made to ethnic Israel, and paul Illustrates that.

The Pauline answer is no because not every ethnic Jew is the object of this promise but only SUPERNATURAL BORN Jews as in the case of Isaac and ELECT Jews as in the case of Jacob.

Correct, and Supernaturally born Gentiles !

In Romans 11 the objection that Paul is responding to is, since ETHNIC ISRAEL AS A NATION has rejected Christ is God through with ETHNIC ISRAEL? The answer again is no!

The answer is Yes, only except for those who remain in it who are of the election of Grace.

Ethnic Israel in and of itself, are not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The only way God is not through with an ethnic jew is if they happen to be of the election of grace, other than that, they are not a Child of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw:



I already knew the context, that is where I found the Truth of what I am stating, in the context !



The Truth of the context is that Ethnic Israel considered in and of itself, are not the Children of God. The Children of the promise are, which are comprised of both jew and gentile.

The only way an ethnic jew means anything to God, is if they are born again, a child of promise, the same if any gentile means anything to God.

Being Abraham's seed , a jew merely by fleshly birth, means nothing. God has never made any promise to any jew or group of jews, in and of the fact they were only jews by physical birth.



Thats the issue, they were not made to ethnic Israel, and paul Illustrates that.



Correct, and Supernaturally born Gentiles !



The answer is Yes, only except for those who remain in it who are of the election of Grace.

Ethnic Israel in and of itself, are not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The only way God is not through with an ethnic jew is if they happen to be of the election of grace, other than that, they are not a Child of God.

You have a grasp on one truth and that is the children of promise are twice born humans whether Jew or Gentiles.

Where you fail is to see that Israel as an "ELECT" nation is throughout the scriptures personified and dealt with just as God deals with any individual "elect." Where you fail also is your understanding and interpretation of Romans 11. God is not through with ETHNIC ISRAEL and the fall of ethnic Israel is TEMPORARY and the TEMPORARY fall is for the sake of calling out the promised Children among the gentiles. However, there comes a time when all the promised children among the Gentiles will be finished (Rom. 11:25) and what God has "cut off" (ethnic Israel) will be grafted back in "AGAIN."

God has not "cut off" any of the "remnant" saved before and after the cross! Hence, none of the "remnant" are grafted in "again." God has not "cut off" any of the elect among the gentiles therefore it is not the Gentile elect that are grafted in "again." What God has cut off temporarily is the ETHNIC NATION of Israel while saving only the "remnant" elect from the time of Abraham to the time "the fulness of the gentiles" be come in or until all the promised children among the gentiles be come in (v. 25).

When the fulness of God's promised children among the Gentiles be fulfilled, then God will return to ETNIC ISRAEL which is that in the context which is cut off and graft them back in "again" and at that point in time "all Israel shall be saved" (v. 26)

Who is "all Israel" in verse 26? It is the Israel in verse 25 being contrasted to the gentiles. It is the Israel in verses 9-24 which have been "cut off" so that the promised children among the Gentiles can be saved. It is only those people on earth who have ever been called "Jacob" as no gentile elect or gentiles whatsoever have ever been called "Jacob." It is the Israel that is NOW PRESENTLY enemies of the gospel (v. 28). It is the Israel that has been PERSONIFIED in the Old Testament as "mine elect" but whose time of salvation has not yet come until after all the gentile elect be come in. It is the Israel that God gave the "covenant" unto in the Old Testament as a NATION of ethnic people.

When Jesus comes out of heavenly Zion where he now abides (Acts 3:17-19) the Israel that has formerly been cut off will be grafted back in again and they will "look upon him whom they have periced" (Rev. 1:7; Zech. 12:10) and a fountain shall be open unto them from God for their cleansing and they shall be saved all in ONE DAY - the day of Christ's coming.

You may just respond by asserting a rejection but you cannot take Romans 11 and disprove my position! I dare you to HONESTLY try!

 

[savedbymercy]

Why the Spirit of Promise ?

Eph 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Remember when Peter was preaching he made reference to Christ after having died, rose, and ascended on High that He received from the Father The Promise of the Spirit ? Acts 2:33

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

This is because, as Christ was that Seed of Abraham by which all the world was to be blessed Gal 3:16

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gen 22:18

And in thy seed[Christ] shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


Gen 28:14

And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee[Jacob] and in thy seed[Christ] shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Acts 3:25

Ye are the [spiritual] children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

So He [ The Holy Ghost] comes to the Children of Promise, the Seed of Abraham.

Christ, the risen Seed of Abraham, now that He has accomplished the seed's Salvation by the Cross, He pours out the Spirit upon all the Seed. This is according to Prophesy !

Isa 44:3 Hear God's Promise !

For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Isa 59:21

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

And this Promise belonged to Gentiles who were also of this Seed so we read in Gal 3:14

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ[The Seed]; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Through Faith here is not the act of believing, but means Christ or the Doctrine of Faith, that is they receive the Spirit according to the Doctrine of Faith, what has been written, as per say the promises of OT scripture as Isa 44:3 and 59:21 Those are God's Promises, so its a tenet of Faith.

See, the word Faith is also that body of Truth as per Jude 1:3

3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jude is not saying contend for the act of believing, but He means by Faith, that body of Truth.

So all the Children of Promise are given by Christ, the Spirit of Promise according to or on this account, the scripture, the body of Truth, the Faith.

 

[Eric B]

Anyone who states that election is only God "initiative" in salvation simply is void of Biblical understanding on this subject. Election is God's choice of a LIMITED portion of man kind, those given to the Son by the Father for the purpose to give eternal life unto them (Jn. 17:2; 6:37,39; 2 Thes. 2:13) that they may be holy (Eph. 1:4) and is unconditioned upon any forseen good or evil they will do (Rom. 9:11).

The term "elect" or "chosen" is invalidated in meaning if one says there is no such thing as non-elect or a portion of humanity not chosen. It means to chose out from among others and it means that in our own culture and usage. What do you think you do at the voting booth? What do you think you do at the salad bar? What do you think you do at the clothing store?

This professor simply ignores all the Biblical evidence.

He didn't say "election" was God's initiative; he said "election language simply has in view God’s initiative". That changes it from what you're reading into it.

In other words, what he's saying is that it is not hard election as such, but the language that appears as such is used to convey God as the initiator of salvation in general, rather than for specific people only (necessarily excluding all others).

Here is a little exercise for you and Thinkingstuff. Define who is included in the word "all" in the following text and then see if it makes any sense to make the term "all" equal to the term "as many as thou hast given" in the same text?

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

I've never interpreted "all" there as "as many as you have given". God has given Christ power over all flesh. That's just the Lordship of the Son over all creation, not who will be saved, and by what process of choosing. The "as many as you have given" part is where the election debate comes into it. "All" is debated in other passages, describing God desiring to save all. I don't see what your point about "all" in this passage is.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I've never interpreted "all" there as "as many as you have given". God has given Christ power over all flesh. That's just the Lordship of the Son over all creation, not who will be saved, and by what process of choosing. The "as many as you have given" part is where the election debate comes into it. "All" is debated in other passages, describing God desiring to save all. I don't see what your point about "all" in this passage is.

I understood him perfectly. Election is not God's initiative but God's determination in saving a specific known restricted number of lost persons (Rom. 8:28-31) before the world began (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13).

John 17:2 and the word "all flesh" means "all flesh" and the words "as many as" are defined by the words "were given to him of the Father" thus not "all flesh" were given to him by the Father. The purpose of giving "as many as were given him" was to give eternal life - which is salvation.

The text is simple and clear and those who deny unconditional election simply do not believe the text and pervert the text. It does not say "as many as repent and believe the gospel were given to me by the Father to give eternal life." It does not say "all flesh was given to me by the Father to give eternal life to as many as repented and believed." That is what conditional electionists attempt to READ INTO this text.

 

[Eric B]

Those passages also do not say "a specific known restricted number", nor any discussion of any hypothetical group of "not given". That has been read into there just as much as the other stuff. Both are tying to pick up on something [supposedly] being implied or inferred by the text.
So it's a matter of determining which of those interpretations is truer to the whole body of revelation, not just isolated verses here and there.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Those passages also do not say "a specific known restricted number", nor any discussion of any hypothetical group of "not given". That has been read into there just as much as the other stuff. Both are tying to pick up on something [supposedly] being implied or inferred by the text.
So it's a matter of determining which of those interpretations is truer to the whole body of revelation, not just isolated verses here and there.

John 17:2; 6:36-40; 44-45 do limit a specific KIND of people from other people. For example, Jesus limits eternal life to a smaller portion of "all flesh" to only those "given him." That is a limitation and thus a restricted number that is elsewhere identified as "the elect."

Jn. 6:36 denies those he is addressing are among those in verse 37-39 who have been given to Christ by the father - thus a limited number of mankind because "ALL" the Father gives none fail to come and yet those in verse 36 DO NOT COME. "ALL" the father gives none are lost (Jn. 6:39) but in contrast all others are lost.

 

[savedbymercy]

Rom 9:9

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

Gal 4:28

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Thats what it means to be a child of promise , a believer. Just as Isaac was.

God promised Abraham a believing seed. Gen 17:2-5

1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Each child of promise, God will reveal to them the Covenant as He did Isaac.

Look Gen 26:1-4

1And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

2And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Thats the Gospel being revealed, Peter Called it the Covenant Acts 3:25

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Paul calls the same Promise the Gospel Gal 3:8

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So the Covenant and the Gospel are the same. Now all the Children of Promise, who are born sinners by nature as others are, and so was Isaac, shall in their lifetime have the Covenant or Gospel revealed to them because they are Children of the promise and when that happens they believe..

They are Children of the Covenant. What Covenant ? This one Gen 17:2-5,7

2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.


7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

So believers are a result of God establishing His Covenant with Abraham's seed, or Children after Him as He said.

So therefore Paul writes Gal 3:7

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Thats why they are of Faith, because of God's Promise to multiply Abraham's Seed.

They are a result of God's word of Promise ! BTW, That is who the True Israel of scripture is as well, The Children of Promise ! Rom 9:8

 

[Dr. Walter]

Rom 9:9

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

Gal 4:28

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Thats what it means to be a child of promise , a believer. Just as Isaac was.-

You are speaking only in half truths. Individually all true believers are children of promise. However, "true Israelites" or "true Israel" has nothing to do with gentile believers but with TWICE BORN ethnic Jews. Take a look at Romans 9:24 and you will that Paul makes a distinction between "Jews" and "gentiles" when it comes to election but your position denies such a distinction but equally views all as ISRAEL.

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

It is the children of promise out of the gentiles that verses 25-26 refer to. However, verse 27-33 refers to the children of promise out of ETHNIC ISRAEL.



27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

If "Israel" in verse 27 above was your idea of "Israel" then you have only a "remnant shall be saved." Obviously, ethnic Israel is the subject not spiritual Israel. God has always had a "remnant" (children of promise) in every generation out of ETHNIC Israel. However, ETHNIC ISRAEL as a NATION shall be saved in one day according to God's promise to save "JACOB" (Rom. 9:26-28) when Christ comes from heaven.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

You are speaking only in half truths.

Boy you have just ignored a lot of truth.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Just shall live by Faith !

Hab 2:4;Rom 1:17;Gal 3:11;Heb 10:38 All of these verses have one thing in common, The Divine Promise that the Just shall live by Faith. Now exactly who are the Just ? The Just are all those who have been made and declared Righteous by the obedience of the death and blood of Christ. Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Notice the word shall here as it is also in the four verses above. You see the word Just as it is found in the above Three NT references is the greek word dikaios:

righteous, observing divine laws

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

Also as you can see its also the word righteous as in Rom 5:19. So in reality Rom 5:19 could read with no harm done Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made to live by Faith.

So the death of Christ or His obedience will produce people of Faith !

Yes, to be made righteous and to be made Just are the same word, and the Divine Promise is that the Just shall [not maybe] live by Faith. This is also true because Christ as the seed of Abraham [Gal 3:16] of which it was promised to Abraham centuries before, that in His Seed [Christ] all nations should be blessed Gen 22:18

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Peter preached Acts 3:25

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

The Blessing is that they, people of all nations or all kindreds of the earth, shall be made by the obedience of the Promise seed, which is Christ, shall be made righteous or to live by Faith ! This was Preached to Abraham centuries ago according to Gal 3:8-9

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

You see that ? That was God's Promise, that was His blessing to all nations through Abraham's Seed Christ, that He would Justify the heathen through Faith. That was the Gospel to Abraham, to make Him the Father of many Children of Faith. Thats why vs 9 says, so then, they which be of Faith are blessed with or together Faithful Abraham. God gives them Faith as He did Abraham their Father. They are Abraham's promised Children as God sware unto Him Gen 17:2

2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. cp Heb 6:13-14

13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

God promised Abraham a believing seed, a seed of Faith of all nations, that would be accomplished by the Obedience and Death of His Seed Christ ! Because of the Seed Christ, His obedience as per Rom 5:19, the many shall [not maybe] be made righteous or made Just or made to live by Faith.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Just shall live by Faith !

Hab 2:4;Rom 1:17;Gal 3:11;Heb 10:38 All of these verses have one thing in common, The Divine Promise that the Just shall live by Faith. Now exactly who are the Just ? The Just are all those who have been made and declared Righteous by the obedience of the death and blood of Christ. Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Notice the word shall here as it is also in the four verses above. You see the word Just as it is found in the above Three NT references is the greek word dikaios:

righteous, observing divine laws

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

Also as you can see its also the word righteous as in Rom 5:19. So in reality Rom 5:19 could read with no harm done Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made to live by Faith.

So the death of Christ or His obedience will produce people of Faith !

Yes, to be made righteous and to be made Just are the same word, and the Divine Promise is that the Just shall [not maybe] live by Faith. This is also true because Christ as the seed of Abraham [Gal 3:16] of which it was promised to Abraham centuries before, that in His Seed [Christ] all nations should be blessed Gen 22:18

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Peter preached Acts 3:25

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

The Blessing is that they, people of all nations or all kindreds of the earth, shall be made by the obedience of the Promise seed, which is Christ, shall be made righteous or to live by Faith ! This was Preached to Abraham centuries ago according to Gal 3:8-9

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

You see that ? That was God's Promise, that was His blessing to all nations through Abraham's Seed Christ, that He would Justify the heathen through Faith. That was the Gospel to Abraham, to make Him the Father of many Children of Faith. Thats why vs 9 says, so then, they which be of Faith are blessed with or together Faithful Abraham. God gives them Faith as He did Abraham their Father. They are Abraham's promised Children as God sware unto Him Gen 17:2

2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. cp Heb 6:13-14

13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

God promised Abraham a believing seed, a seed of Faith of all nations, that would be accomplished by the Obedience and Death of His Seed Christ ! Because of the Seed Christ, His obedience as per Rom 5:19, the many shall [not maybe] be made righteous or made Just or made to live by Faith.

Your eisegetical hodge podge of texts cannot do away with the fact that in Genesis God uses both the singular "nation" and plural "nations" in regard to the Abrahamic covenant. The promised seed comprise both and the "nation" of Israel will be saved all at once in one day as a ethnic "nation" of elect promised children (Rom. 11:25-28; Rev. 1:7).

 

[savedbymercy]

Your eisegetical hodge podge of texts cannot do away with the fact that in Genesis God uses both the singular "nation" and plural "nations" in regard to the Abrahamic covenant. The promised seed comprise both and the "nation" of Israel will be saved all at once in one day as a ethnic "nation" of elect promised children (Rom. 11:25-28; Rev. 1:7).

Abraham's Physical Seed Israel, is not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Abraham's Physical Seed Israel, is not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

You are jerking this text out of context. The context is about the status of the PHYSICAL SEED of Abraham and whether or not mere PHYSICAL birth fulfills the promise to Abraham of a SINGULAR "nation" from his loins as the promised children through Isaac! Paul is denying that PHYSICAL BIRTH alone is sufficient to make the PHYSICAL JEW a child of promise but rather the promise is fulfilled in being a TWICE BORN Jew just as Jesus told Nicodemus that there must be TWO births - ethnic physical birth as a Jew and then a second birth and so what is born of flesh is flesh (ethnic Jew) but what is born of Spirit is spirit (spiritual born Jew).

Therefore, the "nation" of promised children are comprised of Jews who are TWICE BORN (Rom. 9:5-13) IN ADDITION there are TWICE BORN gentiles of the "NATIONS" distinguished from twice born Jews (Rom. 9:24-33). The TWICE BORN gentiles fulfill the promise to Abraham concerning the "NATIONS" not the "NATION." Only TWICE BORN JEWS fulfill the promise to Abraham concerning "THE NATION" from his "own loins" as they are from his "own loins" (physical birth) as well as "born of God" - thus twice born.

God's ultimate fulfillment of this SINGULAR "nation" from the loins of Abraham and born of God or TWICE BORN Ethnic Jews is not realized in the Old Testament but yet in the future (Ezek. 36:26-27) at the precise time of Christ's return from heaven (Rom. 10:26-28) AFTER all the promised children from the PLURAL "nations" or "gentiles" have been realized (Rom. 9:25).

Your error and confusion is your failure to see that the same everlasting covenant of redemptive, same gospel, same savior, same way of salvation obtains ALL the promised Children whether they are of the "NATIONS" or those promised from "the loins" of Abraham or the singular ethnic Jewish "NATION." You erroneously conclude that since the NATIONS of promised children are redeemed according to the Abrahamic covenant then God's promise to the children of promise from the "loins of" Abraham or the elect "NATION" will not be saved but were only TYPES of the true promised children from the "NATIONS." However, this view demands that the TYPE is a failure, rejected by God and thus God failed in his promise to Abraham in regard to the singular NATION from his own "loins." That view demands the TYPE is actually to be saved through the law instead of through the covenant of Abraham but FAILS to be saved as the law cannot save anyone. Hence, your view reduces the PROMISE to Abraham to be a LIE and thus no fulfillment of salvation as a promised elect "NATION" but rather totally rejected by God for time and eternity.

It is this very view that Paul is refuting in Romans 11. In Romans 9 is clarification that the promised ethnic NATION from the literal "loins" of Abraham is not fulfilled by ONCE born ethnic Jews but is fulfilled only through TWICE BORN ethnic Jews and is not fully obtained by any "remnant" of ethnic twice born Jews but in the salvation of the whole nation at the coming of Christ (Rom. 11:1-28).

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

You are jerking this text out of context.

I am showing you the Truth, which you cannot receive. Abraham's Physical descendants Israel are not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw:



I am showing you the Truth, which you cannot receive. Abraham's Physical descendants Israel are not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This text ONLY denies those ONCE BORN Jews are not the children of promise but in context asserts that TWICE BORN Jews are the substance of that promise and God will save a whole SINGULAR "nation" of TWICE BORN Jews at Christ's return (Rom. 11:25-28) according to His purpose of election and promise to Abraham to save a people from his own loins IN ADDITION to a people from all PLURAL "nations"!

You teach a half truth. You accept one half of the promise ("NATIONS") but reject the ethnic "loins" promise of a "NATION" of promised children!

 

[savedbymercy]

This text ONLY denies those ONCE BORN Jews are not the children of promise but in context asserts that TWICE BORN Jews are the substance of that promise and God will save a whole SINGULAR "nation" of TWICE BORN Jews at Christ's return (Rom. 11:25-28) according to His purpose of election and promise to Abraham to save a people from his own loins IN ADDITION to a people from all PLURAL "nations"!

You teach a half truth. You accept one half of the promise ("NATIONS") but reject the ethnic "loins" promise of a "NATION" of promised children!

The Text proves that Abraham's Physical Descendants, the jews, are not the Children of God Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Romans 8:28-39 demands that all of God's elect will be saved according to God's promise.

This brings up Israel and her rejection of Christ as a nation. Paul affirms that is also a Jew according to the flesh and that all the promises were given to ethnic Israel:

1 ¶ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
There is no possible way that the above verses can be contextually applied to a SPIRITUAL Israel that is composed of Jews and Gentiles. Note the repetitive ethnic designations:

a. "my brethren
b. "my kinsmen"
c. "according to the flesh"
d. "Who are Israelites"
e. "to whom pertaineth" all the promises
f. "of whom"
g. "as concerning the flesh"

Now Paul does not jump horses at verse 6 but rather responds to the Jewish argument that God's word of promise to Abraham concerning Israelites "according to the flesh....to whom pertaineth" must have failed since the nation as a whole rejected their Messiah:


6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

This text must be interpreted by the preceding and foregoing context. The preceding context is ETHNIC JEWS "to whom pertaineth" the promises. The following context deals with the patriarchs of the Jews as an ethnic nation (Isaac, Jacab and Esau).

In context the phrase "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" simply means not all ethnic born Jews that compose "all Israel" as an ethnic nation are "of Israel" the Israel just referred to in verse 5 unto "whom pertaineth" the promises and the Israel in verse 5 are ETHNIC ISRAEL as a nation. He explains what he means in verses 7-8. The promises to ETHNIC ISRAEL pertains only to TWICE BORN ethnic Jews and not to those born merely "according to the flesh."

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Again he limits the discussion to only ETHNIC JEWS or those who "are the seed of Abraham" through natural birth. He therefore is not entertaining gentiles at all but those "because they are" the seed of Abraham and what gives them the right to the promises in verse 5. Not all ethinic Jews qualify for those promises as he goes on to prove.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The "children" of Abraham which are only children by natural birth alone or "of the flesh" "are not the children of God." The ethnic Jews "unto whom pertaineth" the promises in verse 5 are those "children" SUPERNATURALLY born according to "promise" as in the case of the birth of Isaac. Isaac's birth was due to God's promise rather than to Abraham and Sarah reproducing them by purely natural means. However, Isaac was born according to the flesh or through physical parents but in addition to that natural birth there was a SUPERNATURAL birth. This is the same message Jesus tells the ethnic Jew Nicodemus (Jn. 3:3-6).

Now, he defines what he means "the word of promise"

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

The birth of Isaac was purely due to the promise and power of God (Jn. 1:13) as in the case of Isaac AND it was according to God's eternal purpose of election by grace as in the case of Jacob over Esau.

This is the context of Romans 9:7 and the above is a correct contextual development of the passage.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

Romans 8:28-39 demands that all of God's elect will be saved according to God's promise

.

Rabbit Trail response. The issue is that Abraham's fleshly descendants, jews, are not God's Children, never have been, never will be. Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

They are liken to a nation full of Ishmael's..rejected of God, no inheritance !

 

[Dr. Walter]

My exposition of Romans 9:1-8 below proves that you jerked Romans 9:8 out of its context.

I dare you or anyone else on this forum to demonstrate where my exposition is in error. Put up or shut up!

All you can do is proof text - you are incapable of demonstrating that your proof text harmonizes with the developmental context in which it is found.

Any cult can do you what are doing. However, the truth is ALWAYS established by context and context alone. You have jerked Romans 9:8 out of context and it is obvious to anyone reading this thread.

It is obvious because you cannot respond except for making UNFOUNDED accustations.

Romans 8:28-39 demands that all of God's elect will be saved according to God's promise.

This brings up Israel and her rejection of Christ as a nation. Paul affirms that is also a Jew according to the flesh and that all the promises were given to ethnic Israel:

1 ¶ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
There is no possible way that the above verses can be contextually applied to a SPIRITUAL Israel that is composed of Jews and Gentiles. Note the repetitive ethnic designations:

a. "my brethren
b. "my kinsmen"
c. "according to the flesh"
d. "Who are Israelites"
e. "to whom pertaineth" all the promises
f. "of whom"
g. "as concerning the flesh"

Now Paul does not jump horses at verse 6 but rather responds to the Jewish argument that God's word of promise to Abraham concerning Israelites "according to the flesh....to whom pertaineth" must have failed since the nation as a whole rejected their Messiah:


6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

This text must be interpreted by the preceding and foregoing context. The preceding context is ETHNIC JEWS "to whom pertaineth" the promises. The following context deals with the patriarchs of the Jews as an ethnic nation (Isaac, Jacab and Esau).

In context the phrase "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" simply means not all ethnic born Jews that compose "all Israel" as an ethnic nation are "of Israel" the Israel just referred to in verse 5 unto "whom pertaineth" the promises and the Israel in verse 5 are ETHNIC ISRAEL as a nation. He explains what he means in verses 7-8. The promises to ETHNIC ISRAEL pertains only to TWICE BORN ethnic Jews and not to those born merely "according to the flesh."

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Again he limits the discussion to only ETHNIC JEWS or those who "are the seed of Abraham" through natural birth. He therefore is not entertaining gentiles at all but those "because they are" the seed of Abraham and what gives them the right to the promises in verse 5. Not all ethinic Jews qualify for those promises as he goes on to prove.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The "children" of Abraham which are only children by natural birth alone or "of the flesh" "are not the children of God." The ethnic Jews "unto whom pertaineth" the promises in verse 5 are those "children" SUPERNATURALLY born according to "promise" as in the case of the birth of Isaac. Isaac's birth was due to God's promise rather than to Abraham and Sarah reproducing them by purely natural means. However, Isaac was born according to the flesh or through physical parents but in addition to that natural birth there was a SUPERNATURAL birth. This is the same message Jesus tells the ethnic Jew Nicodemus (Jn. 3:3-6).

Now, he defines what he means "the word of promise"

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

The birth of Isaac was purely due to the promise and power of God (Jn. 1:13) as in the case of Isaac AND it was according to God's eternal purpose of election by grace as in the case of Jacob over Esau.

This is the context of Romans 9:8 and the above is a correct contextual development of the passage.