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Who are the ELECT?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Wes Outwest, Dec 24, 2004.

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  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    If the Elect are decreed before the Fall or after the Fall, why did the Apostle Paul have such a wrenching of heart over over his nationality of 'Israelites?' [Romans 9:1-4]

    If ony the Effectually Called were going to come into the fold, Paul was wasting his prayers, energy and tears over these human beings. :
     
    #21 Ray Berrian, Dec 27, 2004
  2. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Prayers are never wasted, even for your enemies.
     
    #22 prophecynut, Dec 27, 2004
  3. rc

    rc New Member

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    Again Wes,
    You are not understanding THE WHOLE POINT of Chapter 9,10, or 11. The Jew understands that Paul was proving that the "Promises" for the Jews have not been broken... But understanding what a Jew is, is your problem and who the promises are for. Any Jew then and now looks upon this passage as NOT of nations but of individuals. You are always getting confused the spiritual dead for physical and decendant elect with spiritual elect... without this proper JEWISH understanding, you'll never get it.. Read some of the targum writers... or John Gill... he was the best Gentile teacher of them.
     
    #23 rc, Dec 27, 2004
  4. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Chapters 9-ll does deal with God's chosen people, the descendents of Jacob. During the present age a remnant of Jacob are being chosen by grace for salvation in Christ. Corporate Israel today is still God's chosen people or the elect of God, but only a remnant of them are chosen to be the elect in Christ.

    In this present age there exists a physical elect of Israel and a spiritual elect of Israel.

    [ December 27, 2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: prophecynut ]
     
    #24 prophecynut, Dec 27, 2004
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Talk about confused? It truly seems you are! There is no such thing as two "Elects". ALL election is Spiritual!
     
    #25 Wes Outwest, Dec 27, 2004
  6. rc

    rc New Member

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    All Elects and spiritual? ... So, when God "Chose" Israel then ALL of them are saved, because they were the "Chosen" or "elect" of God, huh?... Wes... not all Israel is Israel. Why did Paul say that then? ... Why is he anticipating the questions coming. And it has NOTHING to do with corporate Israel either..
     
    #26 rc, Dec 27, 2004
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    The spirit gives life to the flesh, the flesh has nothing to offer. Therefore it is not the physical Israel that is important to God. It is with Israel as it is with all mankind, our spirit that bears the image of God, it is the spirit in which we will be raised.

    Because it is the spirit by which we are elected, no man can ascertain who was, is or will be what the scriptures call "the elect". You can't say, and neither can I, who is and who is not elect of God! So what's the big deal with Calvinism? There is no more truth there than there is in Arminianism. The truth lies in Christism.
     
    #27 Wes Outwest, Dec 27, 2004
  8. rc

    rc New Member

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    It is by the spirit by which we are elected Wes! Very Good.. God elects! He ordains who is, not man... just as Paul is starting to teach in Romans 9.
     
    #28 rc, Dec 27, 2004
  9. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    The spirit in my post is human spirit! It is the human spirit that gives life to human flesh! It is human spirit that is made in the image of God. It is human spirit where belief and its opposite reside. It is human spirit that constrains the activities of human flesh.
     
    #29 Wes Outwest, Dec 27, 2004
  10. rc

    rc New Member

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    The Spirit it DEAD ALSO WES ... dead in sin... and it seeks NO GOOD! Not one seeks after God, not one does good... that is the position BEFORE God regenerates that dead, evil seeking spirit... that's what makes it such a miracle!
     
    #30 rc, Dec 28, 2004
  11. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    JESUS ATONED FOR SIN, PAYING THE PENALTY IN OUR STEAD, THEREBY NEGATING SIN'S POWER OVER US. OUR HUMAN SPIRIT IS NOT DEAD IN SIN. IF IT IS DEAD IN ANYTHING, IT IS DEAD IN LACK OF FAITH IN GOD! BUT THE INSTANT ONE COMES TO FAITH IN GOD, OUR SPIRIT IS NO LONGER DEAD IN LACK OF FAITH, FOR FAITH HAS DISPLACED LACK OF FAITH!
     
    #31 Wes Outwest, Dec 28, 2004
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Here we are into page 3 of the topic and still no answer to the question "Who are the ELECT?"
     
    #32 Wes Outwest, Dec 28, 2004
  13. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Who are the elect?

    Answer: ' . . . it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.' [I Corinthians 1:21 b]

    This verse makes us aware that salvation is by grace alone, through faith. The Lord offers the gift of grace; [Ephesians 2:8] sinners respond through a faith/trust in Jesus. [Hebrews 11:6] [​IMG]
     
    #33 Ray Berrian, Dec 28, 2004
  14. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Wes, Outwest and rc

    Garbage in, Garbage out.

    Are you guys in the twilight Zone ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    #34 prophecynut, Dec 28, 2004
  15. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Actually Prophecynut,
    I am enjoying the Sonlight! Maybe you should!
     
    #35 Wes Outwest, Dec 28, 2004
  16. rc

    rc New Member

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    Wes,
    If one NEVER SEEKS AFTER GOD... then one will not "come to faith" by ones self... that's the whole point... you don't go from NOT SEEKING GOD, hating God, loving evil to "coming to faith"... it's the Divine work of God, ONLY.
     
    #36 rc, Jan 3, 2005
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    rc,

    Put this through your Calvinistic grinder and give us some more mince meat.

    Our Lord said, 'And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life.' [John 5:40] Apparently, they had the ability to have His spiritual life.

    Also, John 5:43 slices Calvinistic Irresistible Grace in half. One half is bologna and the other half is non-sense.

    Jesus said while with the people on earth, 'I am come in My Father's Name, and YE RECEIVED ME NOT.' Jesus wished their salvation [I Timothy 2:4 & II Peter 3:9] but since He has allowed/ordained human volition, it is out of His hands, other than His most faithful call of the Holy Spirit to repentance and belief in the Son.

    As evangelist Finney said, 'There will be no conscripts in Heaven.' Jesus knocks at the hearts door; notice the door knob is on the inside. [Revelation 3:20] 'If any man . . . . open the door, (then) I will come into him . . . ' Finney was exegetical; Calvin polluted the truth of Jesus message to His church and has defrauded the purity of His Gospel. [​IMG]
     
    #37 Ray Berrian, Jan 3, 2005
  18. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Ray;
    None are so blind as those who just won't see.
    Amen to your last post here Brother.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #38 ILUVLIGHT, Jan 3, 2005
  19. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    I can introduce you to over two dozen of my personal friends who have done just that, gone from God haters to fully transformed believers. So don't tell me it don't work that way.

    Did God intervene? How does one witness that? All I know is they are like the one blind from birth who told the rulers, "I was blind but now I can see". They each testify that it was the Word of God that caused them to see the truth.

    I personally challenged them to read the Gospel of John only. They did, except for one of them who at that time could not read, I read the Gospel of John aloud to him. He reads just fine now that he's gone back to adult school and learned how to read for himself. He went from being a street bum to being a productive member of the community. Did God intervene in their lives? Yes!, Was God the initiator? I guess if motivating me to give them the Gospel of John and the challenge to read it is God initiating their regeneration then OK! God initiated it. But they were not regenerated before they accepted the challenge, they were each and none of them seeking after God, they were ignorant of God! God's word is what reached them and the Holy Spirit illuminated the truth of John's gospel either as they were reading it, or soon after reading it. I personally watched the tears stream down the cheeks of three of these HARDENED men.

    No, rc, You cannot tell me it has to be "regeneration first", In truth I've never seen that work at all!

    By the way, My challenge to them is that "if you want to be "the best of the baddest", they had better learn how! Here's a little book that teaches you how to be the best of the baddest! and I hand them the Gospel of John with specially printed covers that say "Handbook for success"

    And, NO it doesn't work everytime, in truth the success rate is about 1 in ten! But that is better than 0 in a million who are first regenerated, then become believers.
     
    #39 Wes Outwest, Jan 3, 2005
  20. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    The elect are saved by God's election and no one knows who they are. For all we know, only the semipelagians are elect.
     
    #40 billwald, Jan 4, 2005
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