-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Who are the Tribulation Saints?
- Thread starter ddavis
- Start date
ddavis: "...the last 7 years if for the Jewish nation, not for the gentiles." Though I don't agree, this helps me see where you're coming from. "I don’t see the great multitude of gentiles though." So what do you think about the multitude named in Revelation 7:9-14 that came out of great tribulation?
Chris Temple
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God bless! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You too John!
I agree that the kingdom of God is here on earth, secretly in the heart and soul of believers. But there is a heaven where Paul (absent from the body, present with the Lord), the thief on the cross, and all dead saints’ souls are right now. I don’t say it’s up, but it’s definitely a place somewhere beyond the physical realm. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The seventieth week of Daniel—the Tribulation—is an outpouring of the wrath of God throughout the seven years (Rev. 6:16–17; 11:18; 14:19; 15:1; 16:1, 19); it is described as God’s judgment ( Rev. 14:7; 15:4; 16:5–7; 19:2) and God’s punishment (Isa. 24:21–22). (2) The scope of the Tribulation. The whole earth will be involved (Isa. 24:1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 21; 34:2). It also involves God’s chastisement of Israel (Jer. 30:7; Dan. 9:24). If this is the nature and scope of the Tribulation, it is inconceivable that the church will be on earth to experience the wrath of God.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why is it inconceivable, John? Is God incapable of protecting the church through tribulation, rather than taking them out of the tribulation? Notice that there are no clear didactic passages saying that God will rapture the church out of tribulation; it is an inferred doctrine.
The history of the church has been one of great tribulation. True believers have been persecuted and martyred since the first century. One perusal of Voice of the Martyrs tells us it is still occurring. You’d have a hard time convincing believers in Sudan and Indonesia and other places that they are not in The Great Tribulation.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> (3) The purposes of the Tribulation. The divine intentions of the Tribulation will be to judge people living on earth (Rev. 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 14:6; 17:8) and to prepare Israel for her King (Ezek. 36:18–32; Mal. 4:5–6). Neither of these pertain to the church. (4) The unity of the Tribulation. The Tribulation is the seventieth week of Daniel; Daniel 9:24 makes it clear that it has reference to Israel. (5) The exemption of the Tribulation. The church is the bride of Christ, the object of Christ’s love, not His wrath (Eph. 5:25). It would be a contradiction of the very relationship of Christ and the church for the church to go through the punishments of the Tribulation. SNIP <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is only a dispensational interpretation and only holds up if the dispensational hermeneutic is correct!It is not the historical position of the church, nor do I think the biblical position.
The main problem with the rapture position is that it does damage to the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ, which it changes to a Second and Third return. Scripture teaches only one Second Coming. The rapture also does damage to the two-age theory of eschatology, this age and the age to come. They are the only two ages mentioned in the NT. And you didn’t address why Jesus never mentioned a rapture, if it is central to the doctrine of the church.
IMO, rapturism is a clear case of eisogesis of Scripture, based on the necessity of dispensationalists to have the church removed, so God can go back to work on Israel. That too, is not in Scripture.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Precisely! He will keep those to whom this message was spoken to, the church, the bride of Christ, from “the hour of trial . . . on the whole world.” – clearly describing the Great Tribulation. There are tribulations that believers suffer daily, but this world-wide tribulation points to the Great Tribulation that Jesus promised to “keep us from.” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do not doubt that there may be a greater Tribulation that occurs at the end time than is occurring now, yet I think Scripture is clear that the church will (is) go(ing) through it.
From Easton’s:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> TRIBULATION — trouble or affliction of any kind (Deut. 4:30; Matt. 13:21; 2 Cor. 7:4). In Rom. 2:9 “tribulation and anguish” are the penal sufferings that shall overtake the wicked. In Matt. 24:21, 29, the word denotes the calamities that were to attend the destruction of Jerusalem.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31“And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God bless! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You too John!
Chris Temple
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
Chris, What makes the church “the church”, the indwelling Spirit. I believe that the “church” is those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them and that those people who come to know Christ during the tribulation will not have the indwelling of the Spirit because it will go back to the Old Testament way of economy where Holy Spirit walked beside them and didn’t indwell, therefore they can not be the “church” because it was raptured out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry, but this is completely unscriptural! The Bible is about progressive revelation and redemptive history, and God never returns to former types and shadows, or an OT economy! Does He return back to the Law away from grace as well?
God has one purpose: to glorify His name among the nations, and He does this by creating One Redeemed People - the Church - from out of the nations of the world, to the praise and Glory of His Name. A temporary hardening has come upon Israel, so that the Gentiles may be saved and Israel provoked to jealousy, and after the last Gentile has come in, all Israel will be saved, i.e., grafted back in to Spiritual Israel, the Church of Christ.
John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
Rom 11:1 ¶ I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
3 "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"?
4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.
But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
Chris, What makes the church “the church”, the indwelling Spirit. I believe that the “church” is those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them and that those people who come to know Christ during the tribulation will not have the indwelling of the Spirit because it will go back to the Old Testament way of economy where Holy Spirit walked beside them and didn’t indwell, therefore they can not be the “church” because it was raptured out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry, but this is completely unscriptural! The Bible is about progressive revelation and redemptive history, and God never returns to former types and shadows, or an OT economy! Does He return back to the Law away from grace as well?
God has one purpose: to glorify His name among the nations, and He does this by creating One Redeemed People - the Church - from out of the nations of the world, to the praise and Glory of His Name. A temporary hardening has come upon Israel, so that the Gentiles may be saved and Israel provoked to jealousy, and after the last Gentile has come in, all Israel will be saved, i.e., grafted back in to Spiritual Israel, the Church of Christ.
John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
Rom 11:1 ¶ I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
3 "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"?
4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.
But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
John Wells
New Member
Chris said, “Notice that there are no clear didactic passages saying that God will rapture the church out of tribulation; it is an inferred doctrine.”
As is the trinity.
The main problem with the rapture position is that it does damage to the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ, which it changes to a Second and Third return.
Where in the Bible does it mention the “second coming?” There is mention of Christ’s return, or “coming again.” However, not to be accused of playing word games, when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth, He will physically come back to earth. “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Th 4:17 KJV) In my position that this is the rapture, Jesus is met by the saints in the air and does not come to earth, so when He returns physically to earth after the tribulation it will still meet your “second coming” criteria.
Chris said, “I do not doubt that there may be a greater Tribulation that occurs at the end time than is occurring now, yet I think Scripture is clear that the church will (is) go(ing) through it.”
Are you saying we are in a two thousand year Great Tribulation? How do you reconcile that with all the numbers in Revelation and Daniel?
Why is there no mention of “the church” during the entire unfolding description of the 7-year Tribulation? The church’s absence is explained by the pre-trib view.
God bless Chris!
As is the trinity.
The main problem with the rapture position is that it does damage to the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ, which it changes to a Second and Third return.
Where in the Bible does it mention the “second coming?” There is mention of Christ’s return, or “coming again.” However, not to be accused of playing word games, when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth, He will physically come back to earth. “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Th 4:17 KJV) In my position that this is the rapture, Jesus is met by the saints in the air and does not come to earth, so when He returns physically to earth after the tribulation it will still meet your “second coming” criteria.
Chris said, “I do not doubt that there may be a greater Tribulation that occurs at the end time than is occurring now, yet I think Scripture is clear that the church will (is) go(ing) through it.”
Are you saying we are in a two thousand year Great Tribulation? How do you reconcile that with all the numbers in Revelation and Daniel?
Why is there no mention of “the church” during the entire unfolding description of the 7-year Tribulation? The church’s absence is explained by the pre-trib view.
God bless Chris!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Why is it inconceivable, John? Is God incapable of protecting the church through tribulation, rather than taking them out of the tribulation? Notice that there are no clear didactic passages saying that God will rapture the church out of tribulation; it is an inferred doctrine.
The history of the church has been one of great tribulation. True believers have been persecuted and martyred since the first century. One perusal of Voice of the Martyrs tells us it is still occurring. You’d have a hard time convincing believers in Sudan and Indonesia and other places that they are not in The Great Tribulation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let me establish something here with scripture.
Rev. 7:3-8
" 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."
Here we have the 144,000 Jews sealed.
Rev. 9:2-6
"2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."
Here we see all men are tormented by these loucusts, except those 144,000 Jews sealed.
So if the church is here they are experiencing the wrath of God on themseleves.
We are not the children of wrath.
Rev. 9:18-21
"18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. 20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."
Here we see 1/3 of all men killed, but the rest repented not of all thier deeds.
The church is no where to be found here.
Rev. 16:5-7
" 5And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments."
Here we see the angel proclaiming that God has judged the men on earth for killing the saints and prophets. No mention here about the preservation of the righteous.
Rev. 16:8-11
"8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."
Here again we see that none repented of thier deeds. And God's wrath poured out, but no mention of the righteous being preserved.
Please prayerfully consider these things.
God speed.
The history of the church has been one of great tribulation. True believers have been persecuted and martyred since the first century. One perusal of Voice of the Martyrs tells us it is still occurring. You’d have a hard time convincing believers in Sudan and Indonesia and other places that they are not in The Great Tribulation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let me establish something here with scripture.
Rev. 7:3-8
" 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."
Here we have the 144,000 Jews sealed.
Rev. 9:2-6
"2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."
Here we see all men are tormented by these loucusts, except those 144,000 Jews sealed.
So if the church is here they are experiencing the wrath of God on themseleves.
We are not the children of wrath.
Rev. 9:18-21
"18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. 20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."
Here we see 1/3 of all men killed, but the rest repented not of all thier deeds.
The church is no where to be found here.
Rev. 16:5-7
" 5And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments."
Here we see the angel proclaiming that God has judged the men on earth for killing the saints and prophets. No mention here about the preservation of the righteous.
Rev. 16:8-11
"8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."
Here again we see that none repented of thier deeds. And God's wrath poured out, but no mention of the righteous being preserved.
Please prayerfully consider these things.
God speed.
By rlvaughn:
So what do you think about the multitude named in Revelation 7:9-14 that came out of great tribulation?
This may be a stretch but Israel was scattered throughout the nations, therefore becoming Russian Jews, Polish Jews ect… also speaking in those languages. Like I said maybe a stretch. But that is the reason I ask the question uh.
God said he would deal with Israel for 490 years the last 7 (tribulation) would make that 490 complete. If we say there is no second chance, then are these gentiles getting a second chance? Did they not hear the Gospel before the tribulation? Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
By Chris:
I'm sorry, but this is completely unscriptural!
Chris I think on this type of subject that nobody can be completely dogmatic so I will agree to disagree. Good luck John.
So what do you think about the multitude named in Revelation 7:9-14 that came out of great tribulation?
This may be a stretch but Israel was scattered throughout the nations, therefore becoming Russian Jews, Polish Jews ect… also speaking in those languages. Like I said maybe a stretch. But that is the reason I ask the question uh.
God said he would deal with Israel for 490 years the last 7 (tribulation) would make that 490 complete. If we say there is no second chance, then are these gentiles getting a second chance? Did they not hear the Gospel before the tribulation? Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
By Chris:
I'm sorry, but this is completely unscriptural!
Chris I think on this type of subject that nobody can be completely dogmatic so I will agree to disagree. Good luck John.
John Wells
New Member
Chris, I agree with ddavis. If yours or my position could be nailed down with proof positive, don't you think that would have already been done by one of the pillars of theological thought long before now? It is obvious God did not intend the end times to be perfectly clear.
In the mean time, you have given a very good argument for why you view the lack of a rapture, and I would like to hope I have equally challenged minds concerning the possibility of one!
I'm not trying to end the discussion by any means, just set the stage for going forward. Please continue if you so desire to support your view, because I am learning from your point of view.
God bless you Chris, my brother in Christ.
[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]
In the mean time, you have given a very good argument for why you view the lack of a rapture, and I would like to hope I have equally challenged minds concerning the possibility of one!
I'm not trying to end the discussion by any means, just set the stage for going forward. Please continue if you so desire to support your view, because I am learning from your point of view.
God bless you Chris, my brother in Christ.
[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]
ddavis, I would agree and emphasize that to make an INNUMERABLE host out of all nations and kindreds and peoples and tongues to mean Jews from different nations IS quite a stretch. I'm not able to look it up right now, but I'm almost positive that the word 'ethnos' is used in this Rev. 7:9 passage. This would indicate different ethnicities of people and make it impossible to refer to "Russian Jews, Polish Jews, etc."
Question: If there were 7 weeks, then 62 weeks, then AFTER THAT Messiah was cut off; would not have the crucifixion taken place in the 70 week? If not, then the death of Christ takes place totally outside and apart from these 70 weeks in which God said he had determined upon His people. I am not in favor of the 'gap theory' concerning the 70 weeks, although I am a long way from figuring it out.
Finally, why would the Jews get a second chance and the Gentiles not? Both are a part of the "all men" mentioned in Titus 2:11.
[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
Question: If there were 7 weeks, then 62 weeks, then AFTER THAT Messiah was cut off; would not have the crucifixion taken place in the 70 week? If not, then the death of Christ takes place totally outside and apart from these 70 weeks in which God said he had determined upon His people. I am not in favor of the 'gap theory' concerning the 70 weeks, although I am a long way from figuring it out.
Finally, why would the Jews get a second chance and the Gentiles not? Both are a part of the "all men" mentioned in Titus 2:11.
[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
Hi all this has been a great discussion so far and I have held off from putting in my 2 cents- cause i don't have two cents. I don't understand alot about the end times and was wondering if anyone had a good recommendation on a book that walks through revelations/ the end time prophecies?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your question was missed in all the discussion by the others. FF, some good books to consider would be: "Things to Come" Pentecost, "Greatness of the Kingdom" McClain, "The Millennium Bible" Biederwolf. They are all classic presentations of a Biblical dispensational view of the endtime events, which is the only view that is based upon a literal interpretation of the Word of God. Pentecost's book would probably be the best and easiest to begin as a study of biblical endtime events. Enjoy yourself finding what God plans to do next.
Keep in the Word!
Hi all this has been a great discussion so far and I have held off from putting in my 2 cents- cause i don't have two cents. I don't understand alot about the end times and was wondering if anyone had a good recommendation on a book that walks through revelations/ the end time prophecies?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your question was missed in all the discussion by the others. FF, some good books to consider would be: "Things to Come" Pentecost, "Greatness of the Kingdom" McClain, "The Millennium Bible" Biederwolf. They are all classic presentations of a Biblical dispensational view of the endtime events, which is the only view that is based upon a literal interpretation of the Word of God.
Pentecost's book would probably be the best and easiest to begin as a study of biblical endtime events. Enjoy yourself finding what God plans to do next. Keep in the Word!
Brother Adam
New Member
Thank you circuitrider, i kindof figured that happened
UNP, Adam
UNP, Adam
Chris Temple
New Member
Hi John
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Chris said, “Notice that there are no clear didactic passages saying that God will rapture the church out of tribulation; it is an inferred doctrine.”
As is the trinity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Inferences are reasonable when reasonable evidence is provided for them. The trinity, while not explicit, is very nearly explicit, especially by passages such as Matt 28:19: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. There are no didactic NT passages which imply a rapture, such as “and when you are no longer hear, tribulation will increase…”. It is an inference from lack of evidence.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The main problem with the rapture position is that it does damage to the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ, which it changes to a Second and Third return.
Where in the Bible does it mention the “second coming?” There is mention of Christ’s return, or “coming again.” However, not to be accused of playing word games, when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth, He will physically come back to earth. “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Th 4:17 KJV) In my position that this is the rapture, Jesus is met by the saints in the air and does not come to earth, so when He returns physically to earth after the tribulation it will still meet your “second coming” criteria. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree that this is the “rapture”, or catching up. But the context and meaning is the return immediately back to the earth of Christ with all the saints. The rapture occurs after the tribulation, and the end comes, postribulationally, and immediately. This is the Day of the Lord which Scripture speaks of – no secret, silent rapture, but one with much noise (“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. ).) In 1 Thess 5 Paul goes on to explain how this Day of the Lord will happen (For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.) One event, one time.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Chris said, “I do not doubt that there may be a greater Tribulation that occurs at the end time than is occurring now, yet I think Scripture is clear that the church will (is) go(ing) through it.”
Are you saying we are in a two thousand year Great Tribulation? How do you reconcile that with all the numbers in Revelation and Daniel? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Simple – like most numbers in prophecy and typology, they are figurative!
Does God own the cattle on only 1000 hills?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Chris said, “Notice that there are no clear didactic passages saying that God will rapture the church out of tribulation; it is an inferred doctrine.”
As is the trinity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Inferences are reasonable when reasonable evidence is provided for them. The trinity, while not explicit, is very nearly explicit, especially by passages such as Matt 28:19: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. There are no didactic NT passages which imply a rapture, such as “and when you are no longer hear, tribulation will increase…”. It is an inference from lack of evidence.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The main problem with the rapture position is that it does damage to the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ, which it changes to a Second and Third return.
Where in the Bible does it mention the “second coming?” There is mention of Christ’s return, or “coming again.” However, not to be accused of playing word games, when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth, He will physically come back to earth. “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Th 4:17 KJV) In my position that this is the rapture, Jesus is met by the saints in the air and does not come to earth, so when He returns physically to earth after the tribulation it will still meet your “second coming” criteria. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree that this is the “rapture”, or catching up. But the context and meaning is the return immediately back to the earth of Christ with all the saints. The rapture occurs after the tribulation, and the end comes, postribulationally, and immediately. This is the Day of the Lord which Scripture speaks of – no secret, silent rapture, but one with much noise (“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. ).) In 1 Thess 5 Paul goes on to explain how this Day of the Lord will happen (For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.) One event, one time.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Chris said, “I do not doubt that there may be a greater Tribulation that occurs at the end time than is occurring now, yet I think Scripture is clear that the church will (is) go(ing) through it.”
Are you saying we are in a two thousand year Great Tribulation? How do you reconcile that with all the numbers in Revelation and Daniel? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Simple – like most numbers in prophecy and typology, they are figurative!
Does God own the cattle on only 1000 hills?
rlvaughn, When I looked at that (unless I miss read what JFB we're saying) they said something about all of the saints down through the ages were part of that group, did you happen to notice that?
By rlvaughn:
Finally, why would the Jews get a second chance and the Gentiles not? Both are a part of the "all men" mentioned in Titus 2:11.
That is my question to a "T" and it seems nobody has an answer for it.
By rlvaughn:
Finally, why would the Jews get a second chance and the Gentiles not? Both are a part of the "all men" mentioned in Titus 2:11.
That is my question to a "T" and it seems nobody has an answer for it.
Chris Temple
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
Chris, I agree with ddavis. If yours or my position could be nailed down with proof positive, don't you think that would have already been done by one of the pillars of theological thought long before now? It is obvious God did not intend the end times to be perfectly clear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with you completely John. I was not being dogmatic about my millennial position, only that in whatever position you hold, history and redemption are not retrogressive!
Chris, I agree with ddavis. If yours or my position could be nailed down with proof positive, don't you think that would have already been done by one of the pillars of theological thought long before now? It is obvious God did not intend the end times to be perfectly clear. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with you completely John. I was not being dogmatic about my millennial position, only that in whatever position you hold, history and redemption are not retrogressive!
In answer to your request, here is my summary:
In the Tribulation there will be 12,000 jews from each tribe saved and called evangelists. There will be a great host of gentile believers as well. Most will die or be martyred during the tribulation.
N
NE who has heard the Gospel and rejected it and enters the Tribulation will be able to be saved. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God . . . the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They "have not believed" so they "will be" condemned sets a good timetable.
In the Tribulation there will be 12,000 jews from each tribe saved and called evangelists. There will be a great host of gentile believers as well. Most will die or be martyred during the tribulation.
N
NE who has heard the Gospel and rejected it and enters the Tribulation will be able to be saved. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God . . . the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They "have not believed" so they "will be" condemned sets a good timetable.
I believe with what is said in Rev. chapter 7 that there will be Gentiles who got saved during the tribulation period. As far as a second chance, I'm not to sure about that. I (me) tend to believe if you reject the cross on this side of grace you will not accept it there. The ones, in my own opinion, who are saved of the Gentiles during the tribulation have never beforehand heard the gospel of Christ. As far as the Jews, they will be given a second chance as a nation as a whole, I believe the tribulation period is for the Jews, Matt. 24, I believe Jesus is speaking strickly about the Jews, though we a christians will see the foreshadows of the great tribulation. As to the reason why the Jews are given a second chance is told in the Bible, For His name's sake, not for theirs, but for His, because He choose the Jews as His people.
Ezekiel 22:41-44
"41I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen. 42And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. 43And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. 44And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name’s sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD."
Ezekiel 36:22-24
"22Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land."
God speed.
Ezekiel 22:41-44
"41I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen. 42And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. 43And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. 44And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name’s sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD."
Ezekiel 36:22-24
"22Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land."
God speed.
S. Baptist
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
rlvaughn, Finally, why would the Jews get a second chance and the Gentiles not? Both are a part of the "all men" mentioned in Titus 2:11.
That is my question to a "T" and it seems nobody has an answer for it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I "CAN" answer that for you.
The Jews are a people "CHOSEN" by God, and once "CHOSEN", you can "NEVER" be "Un-chosen". God "DOES NOT" change his mind.
With that said, let's look at the Jews.
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they (Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching
the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Note for who "SAKE" it is, God's, not the Jews.
The Jews rebelled against God in refusing to accept Jesus, "BY FAITH", the Jews require a
sign, except they see "signs and wonders" they "WILL NOT" believe. ( 1Co 1:22, Joh 4:48)
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their
own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
This rebellion results in the physical "signs and wonders" they demanded, and during the
tribulation period them being "Literally" "turned over to Satan" (antichrist) for the destruction
of the flesh of all who come to Faith in Jesus and refuse to worship the antichrist.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may
be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Mr 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I
drink of?
This "CUP" Jesus drink was the same one he prayed in the Garden to pass from him, if
possible. It was his "Death" for our salvation.
Mr 10:39 And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of;
We "drink of his cup" when our old man is crucified with him.
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,
However our "crucifixion" is "Spiritual", for his salvation, but during the tribulation, it will
"literally" cost them their life for his salvation, because those who have "his testimony" will
be martyred by the antichrist.
God made a promise to Abraham, to make his seed as numerous as the stars, and for "GOD'S
SAKE" he'll keep that promise, even if the Jews have to go through HELL.
rlvaughn, Finally, why would the Jews get a second chance and the Gentiles not? Both are a part of the "all men" mentioned in Titus 2:11.
That is my question to a "T" and it seems nobody has an answer for it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I "CAN" answer that for you.
The Jews are a people "CHOSEN" by God, and once "CHOSEN", you can "NEVER" be "Un-chosen". God "DOES NOT" change his mind.
With that said, let's look at the Jews.
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they (Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching
the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Note for who "SAKE" it is, God's, not the Jews.
The Jews rebelled against God in refusing to accept Jesus, "BY FAITH", the Jews require a
sign, except they see "signs and wonders" they "WILL NOT" believe. ( 1Co 1:22, Joh 4:48)
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their
own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
This rebellion results in the physical "signs and wonders" they demanded, and during the
tribulation period them being "Literally" "turned over to Satan" (antichrist) for the destruction
of the flesh of all who come to Faith in Jesus and refuse to worship the antichrist.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may
be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Mr 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I
drink of?
This "CUP" Jesus drink was the same one he prayed in the Garden to pass from him, if
possible. It was his "Death" for our salvation.
Mr 10:39 And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of;
We "drink of his cup" when our old man is crucified with him.
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,
However our "crucifixion" is "Spiritual", for his salvation, but during the tribulation, it will
"literally" cost them their life for his salvation, because those who have "his testimony" will
be martyred by the antichrist.
God made a promise to Abraham, to make his seed as numerous as the stars, and for "GOD'S
SAKE" he'll keep that promise, even if the Jews have to go through HELL.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Excellent discussion. This is what Webmaster envisioned the BB to be, not petty bickering. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Okay, I think I've gotcha, but I have a question. What is your belief on children during the millinium period. When will the great judgment be, before or after the millinium? In other words, will non-Christians be on earth during this time and if so can they sin without the influence of Satan who is tied up for 1000 years? Also, what about children born during this period. Do they require salvation the same way we do? I hope I didn't ask too much, I'm just trying to get it all straight in the ole brain here. THX.
Excellent discussion. This is what Webmaster envisioned the BB to be, not petty bickering. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Okay, I think I've gotcha, but I have a question. What is your belief on children during the millinium period. When will the great judgment be, before or after the millinium? In other words, will non-Christians be on earth during this time and if so can they sin without the influence of Satan who is tied up for 1000 years? Also, what about children born during this period. Do they require salvation the same way we do? I hope I didn't ask too much, I'm just trying to get it all straight in the ole brain here. THX.