Who are we as a Gentile

[J. Jump]

part of His Israel

You run into several problems with this view though. As part of Israel you would be able to claim all the physical promises that were made to Israel. But the church has never been promised a land, a physical seed or a great name.

If you see the church as part of Israel then the Father and Son are married to the same wife, which can't happen.

The offer that was taken away from Israel would in fact still be open to Israel if this is the case, which makes God a liar.

There are just so many problems that can not be resolved with seeing the church as Israel.

 

[canadyjd]

I haven't kept up with this thread, but it's amazing to see how many people make saved OT Jews and Christians one entity. Maybe I'm misreading what you all are saying, but there are not just two groups of people the saved and the lost.

It seems God made the two groups one entity, if you believe what Paul says about it under the inspiration of Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:11 "Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumsision by the so-called Circumcision, performed in the flesh by human hands

(v.12) that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the convenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world

(v.13)But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

(v14) For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

(v.15) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, the Law of commandments in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, establishing peace

(v.16) and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross by it having put to death the enmity."

Since it it clear that your theology is contrary to scripture, I hope you will have the integrity to change your theology to conform to what God has revealed to us in His Word.

peace to youraise:

 

[J. Jump]

It seems God made the two groups one entity, if you believe what Paul says about it under the inspiration of Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:11 "Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumsision by the so-called Circumcision, performed in the flesh by human hands

(v.12) that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the convenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world

(v.13)But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

(v14) For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

(v.15) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, the Law of commandments in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, establishing peace

(v.16) and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross by it having put to death the enmity."

This is being spoken of in regard to the Jew that is no longer accepted by the blood of animal sacrifice. The offer of the kingdom of the heavens/God was open to Israel only to a certain point and then it was taken away from them.

But Jews as individuals can still participate in this offer only through the blood of Christ, because in Christ we are neither Jew nor Gentile (Greek). The Jew today could not accept the offer of the kingdom and stay a Jew because then God's offer of the kingdom would still be open to the Jews and that would make His Word a lie.

Just as Gentiles can't stay Gentiles and participate in this offer, because they have to be of the seed of Abraham in order to again make God's Word mesh.

We are no longer Jew nor Gentile, but one new man in Christ for kingdom purposes.

The Jews that were saved under the animal sacrifices are still Jews and will lay claim to the physical earthly kingdom in that coming day.

Again the two entities can not be one single, because the Father is married to Israel and the Son will marry His bride, which is neither Jew nor Greek.

Since it it clear that your theology is contrary to scripture, I hope you will have the integrity to change your theology to conform to what God has revealed to us in His Word.

This was a bold statement and is in fact errant, but now the same can be said of you. Will your change?

 

[saturneptune]

Praise God that in Christ there is no Jew, Gentile, Greek, black, white, rich or poor. Praise God I am part of his family and really dont much care about labels.

 

[canadyjd]

This is being spoken of in regard to the Jew that is no longer accepted by the blood of animal sacrifice. The offer of the kingdom of the heavens/God was open to Israel only to a certain point and then it was taken away from them.

That is simply incorrect. You could only read that into the passage for it is certainly not there.

But Jews as individuals can still participate in this offer only through the blood of Christ, because in Christ we are neither Jew nor Gentile (Greek). The Jew today could not accept the offer of the kingdom and stay a Jew because then God's offer of the kingdom would still be open to the Jews and that would make His Word a lie.

Paul would certainly disagree with you that He had to give up being a Jew in order to accept the offer of the Kingdom. You are operating from a serious error in your theology that demands a change in the clear meaning of many texts of scripture.

The Jews that were saved under the animal sacrifices are still Jews and will lay claim to the physical earthly kingdom in that coming day.

There were no Jews saved under the animal sacrifices. They were all saved through faith, if they were saved at all; and only those who were "chosen" obtained it. Consider these passages in Gal.

Gal.3:21 "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law."

It is clear the Law of animal sacrifices imparted "life" to no one. Everyone has always been saved by faith.

and

Gal. 3:7 "Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

(v.8) And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, 'All the nations shall be blessed in you.'

(v.9) So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

(v.11)Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, The righteous man shall live by faith."

All that have faith are blessed with Abraham. There is no dividing these groups as you are maintaining.

Again the two entities can not be one single, because the Father is married to Israel and the Son will marry His bride, which is neither Jew nor Greek.

A more biblical understanding is that the ONE Godhead is "married" to the ONE Bride, composed of the "elect"; those that are chosen from the beginning made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

peace to youraise:

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Who is the new Israel, it is believers even from the beginning it was shown.

It is from the the seed of Abraham, and he is the father of believers.

Trusting in Jesus and believing in Him, in no way shows we are saving ourselves, but shows we are trusting in God.

I believe in the elect, but the scripture only says Jews, the desciple's, of the twelve desciple's, one that was cut out for unbelief, one chosen by lots who represents the Gentiles, then you have the one grafted back in for not continuing in his unbelief who is saul, who became Paul. Anyone outside of those groups have chosen themselves and made themselves the elect of God.

The scripture also teaches that these elect people chosen by God was cut out for unbelief, and those gentiles that have heard the Gosple of thier salvation having believed have been included with the believing Jews and this is the Israel scripture that you have given speaks about.

Even if you are apart of the elect, you will be cut out for unbelief. Your only hope is Jesus.

God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. Your hope is Jesus, not in Election that men have been cut out of for unbelief.

I have made many reference to scripture. It should be written on hearts of men not on tablets of stone. I shouldn't have to give references you should know it.

I believe men know more of their man made doctrine than the scriptures.

I read the scripture posted and I have answered your question, it is easy to say you don't see it than to listen.

 

[PrimePower7]

There were no Jews saved under the animal sacrifices. They were all saved through faith, if they were saved at all; and only those who were "chosen" obtained it.

Amen!

Hebrews 10:1-6 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. It is clear the Law of animal sacrifices imparted "life" to no one. Everyone has always been saved by faith.:thumbs:

 

[canadyjd]

I believe in the elect, but the scripture only says Jews, the desciple's, of the twelve desciple's, one that was cut out for unbelief, one chosen by lots who represents the Gentiles, then you have the one grafted back in for not continuing in his unbelief who is saul, who became Paul. Anyone outside of those groups have chosen themselves and made themselves the elect of God.

Rom 8 clearly demonstrates you are incorrect. Paul refers to the "elect" in v. 33 "Who will bring a charge against God's elect?" To whom is Paul referring?

It is the "us" in v.34 and v.33 and v.31.
It is those that God "foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified" in v.29-30.
It is "those who love God" in v.28.
It is the "saints" of v.27.
It is the "we" that have been saved and have hope in v.24.
It is the "fellow heirs with Christ" in v.17.
It is the "sons by adoption" and the "children of God" of v.14-16.
It is the "brethren" of v.12.
It is those "indwelt" by Holy Spirit in v.11
.....and so on.

I have made many reference to scripture. It should be written on hearts of men not on tablets of stone. I shouldn't have to give references you should know it.

Well, just so we know we are speaking about the same scripture, why don't you actually reference the scripture you are using?

I read the scripture posted and I have answered your question, it is easy to say you don't see it than to listen.

That may have been easy for you to write, but it was not very easy for me read.:tongue3:

peace to youraise:

 

[J. Jump]

There were no Jews saved under the animal sacrifices. They were all saved through faith, if they were saved at all; and only those who were "chosen" obtained it.

See that shows your misunderstanding of Scripture. ALL people that are ever saved are saved by God's grace through faith. The faith is what differs from dispensation to dispensation.

God told Abraham to believe He was going to give him a seed. When he believed he was saved.

God told the nation of Israel to slay a lamb and put the blood over the doorpost and they would be saved. When they believed that to be true they were saved.

God told them to continue slaying the pascal lamb and that if they did that they would be saved.

God now says that Jesus Christ, His Only Begotton Son died in our place and shed His blood to pay our sin debt. The moment that we believe that He did that on our behalf we are saved.

It's ALL by God's grace through faith.

Paul would certainly disagree with you that He had to give up being a Jew in order to accept the offer of the Kingdom.

Nowhere did I say Paul had to give up being a Jew in order to accept the offer. Paul was under the old faith system. However there was a generation that began that was no longer under that system and from that generation forward they are no longer Jew if they come to Christ, because there is only one new man in Christ.

You are operating from a serious error in your theology that demands a change in the clear meaning of many texts of scripture.

And yet you have failed to show any. It is just your opinion that I am operating in error, but I'll take the Bible instead of your opinion. A lot of people have opinions...you now that old saying

All that have faith are blessed with Abraham.

What you are failing to see is that there is a split in Abraham's seed. He was promised an earthly seed and a heavenly seed. Same seed, but in two different realms. We are all of Abraham, but some will belong to the earthly physical kingdom and some will belong to the heavenly part of the kingdom. But we are all the seed of Abraham or God is a liar. And we know that God is not a liar! God is Truth!

A more biblical understanding is that the ONE Godhead is "married" to the ONE Bride, composed of the "elect"; those that are chosen from the beginning made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

No actually the Bible makes it quite clear in the distinction that the Father is married to Israel and Christ is married to overcoming, obedient and faithful Christians.

The perfect place to see this is in the book of Ruth where Boaz is speaking to the nearer kinsman redeemer at the city gates. The nearer kinsman redeemer said he is unable to redeem the land and Ruth, because he is already married. So Boaz redeems her. Do you think this is just odd coincidence that it lines up with other Scripture teaching?

 

[PrimePower7]

Reply to Jump

"God told Abraham to believe He was going to give him a seed. When he believed he was saved."

Not so, my friend. Read Galatians 3 and you will find that Abraham was saved when he believed the same "Gospel" you have to believe.

"God told them to continue slaying the pascal lamb and that if they did that they would be saved."

Where did God say this?

"Nowhere did I say Paul had to give up being a Jew in order to accept the offer. Paul was under the old faith system. However there was a generation that began that was no longer under that system and from that generation forward they are no longer Jew if they come to Christ, because there is only one new man in Christ."

Where, in Paul's writings did you see this? Paul renounced, in Colossians 2, the old way of doing things under the Law, "the old faith system" as you call it. My goodness. Read his own words in Galatians 5 or Philippians 3 where he called the "old system" "dung"!:laugh:


"What you are failing to see is that there is a split in Abraham's seed. He was promised an earthly seed and a heavenly seed. Same seed, but in two different realms. We are all of Abraham, but some will belong to the earthly physical kingdom and some will belong to the heavenly part of the kingdom. But we are all the seed of Abraham or God is a liar. And we know that God is not a liar! God is Truth!"

Again, this is unfortunate extrapulation. The truth is, we see ONE SEED in Galatians 3 and He is named as "Christ"...the fulfillment of all the promises.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


"No actually the Bible makes it quite clear in the distinction that the Father is married to Israel and Christ is married to overcoming, obedient and faithful Christians."

So, you can't think of any OT Scriptures that call God Jehovah that refer to Christ? Isaiah is replete with them? How about Matthew 22 (which is still the law according to Hebrews 9:17,18) where the Father is making a marriage feast for His Son under, I say again, the law?

"The perfect place to see this is in the book of Ruth where Boaz is speaking to the nearer kinsman redeemer at the city gates. The nearer kinsman redeemer said he is unable to redeem the land and Ruth, because he is already married. So Boaz redeems her. Do you think this is just odd coincidence that it lines up with other Scripture teaching?"

What I do see is where I can prove ANY and I mean ANY doctrine from typology or symbolism. The truth is, symbolism and typology while good where the New Testament says it is a type or a symbol, is dangerous when trying to prove a doctrine otherwise. You say Jesus is God. Ok. Then quite making Him the husband of two wives. Quit making Him one who can't choose between two elects. He has one wife, one elect and one plan before the foundation of the world. Amen and Amenraise:

 

[J. Jump]

Primepower all you are doing is making excuses, because you don't like what the Bible teaches and want to hold on to your man-made tradition. And that's okay. That is your choice.

But you can't just excuse the types becuase you don't like what the say. If a type can be shown in the OT and then futher clarified and explained in the NT then it is Truth.

Now granted there have been some that have misused this and come up with falsities, but you can't stop using the method becuase some abuse it. It is still true, despite their misuse.

But instead of searching for and mining for the gold that is contained in God's Scripture, you just want all the goodies to lie neatly on the surface and that's just not the case.

But again if you want to go on believing that it is your choice, but an unBiblical choice.

 

[PrimePower7]

Jump

Thanks for making it my choice.

God judge between us.

 

[psalms109:31]

God's elect

Rom 8 clearly demonstrates you are incorrect. Paul refers to the "elect" in v. 33 "Who will bring a charge against God's elect?" To whom is Paul referring?

Who is God's elect that we cannot put a charge against, if you make a claim it is you then you call yourself higher than you are.

I cannot not bring a charge against the desciple's of Jesus, chosen by God through Jesus. It is certainly not men that called themselves and made themselves the elect of God that we can't put a charge against.

Men certainly do put themselves on pedestales. I cannot be as bold as you and call myself the elect, but i can put my hope in Jesus.

It is the "us" in v.34 and v.33 and v.31.
It is those that God "foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified" in v.29-30.
It is "those who love God" in v.28.
It is the "saints" of v.27.
It is the "we" that have been saved and have hope in v.24.
It is the "fellow heirs with Christ" in v.17.
It is the "sons by adoption" and the "children of God" of v.14-16.
It is the "brethren" of v.12.
It is those "indwelt" by Holy Spirit in v.11
.....and so on.

It is believers that are predestioned by God to be saved by His own words that whosoever believes in me shall be saved.

I am not the elect I am whosoever. Accourding to scripture I must believe and endure to the end to be saved.

If God didn't know before hand who would accept and who would not He wouldn't be God. He foreknew and He also predestined.

Foreknowledge comes before hand. People would like to enter another way, but the only way is Jesus.You cannot go through election, because even the very elect(natural branches) have been cut out for unbelief.

So do not be arragont, but afraid, if God did not spare the natural branches He will not sare you either.

Enter to the front door to be predestined to salvation, quit trying to enter through another way. The front door is belief in Jesus.

 

[canadyjd]

See that shows your misunderstanding of Scripture. ALL people that are ever saved are saved by God's grace through faith. The faith is what differs from dispensation to dispensation.

Well, I guess we could continue to say that the other misunderstands scripture, but that will get us no where. I do not see the dispensations that you speak of being supported by scripture. I don't see the word "faith" meaning different things at different "ages". It simply goes against too many New Testament scriptures that focus on the "faith" of Abraham and others, demonstrating that it is the same as Christians.

I think we are too far apart to even communicate at this point.

peace to youraise:

 

[canadyjd]

PrimePower7

You have answered well, supporting your position through the clear meaning of many verses of scripture.:thumbs:

I have never understood why so many people see dispensationalism as a dangerous heresey...until now.

peace to youraise:

 

[canadyjd]

Who is God's elect that we cannot put a charge against, if you make a claim it is you then you call yourself higher than you are.....

I am going to say this as nicely as I can. I have no idea what you are trying to say. I can find no continuity in what you are writing and what we are talking about on this thread.

Please, make one point, back it up with scripture and let's talk.

peace to youraise:

 

[psalms109:31]

elect of God

The only one's can kick back and say they have been elected by God is the Jews, but the have been cut out for unbelief.

So in return we are not to be arragont but afraid if God did not spare natural branches He will not spare us either.

The eleven disciple's, mathias who was chosen by lots and saul who became Paul on the road to damascus, they can say they are the elect of God.

Everyone else making the claim have chosen themselves, and made thierselves the elect of God.

All i have is your word saying you are the elect, and you do not have any scripture than says other wise

I have scripture saying the Jews are the elect and scripture saying why they were cut out, for unbelief.

I think it is very arragont for any man other than the disciple's of Jesus making a claim of thier election.

My hope is in Jesus not in election.

Romans 11:
19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off

Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

My Gaurantee is to believe in Jesus for my salvation, not in election.

I will not be arragont and say i am an elect, but my only hope for salvation is Jesus.

 

[J. Jump]

It simply goes against too many New Testament scriptures that focus on the "faith" of Abraham and others, demonstrating that it is the same as Christians.

So please show me the NT passage that said Abraham believed in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God as his payment for sin.

And then show how that reconciles with this passage in Genesis 15: And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Sure don't see mention of Jesus in that passage?

 

[canadyjd]

So please show me the NT passage that said Abraham believed in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God as his payment for sin.

And then show how that reconciles with this passage in Genesis 15: And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Sure don't see mention of Jesus in that passage?

John 8:56: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad."

The words of Jesus, if you will accept it.

There is no reason to reconcile the passage in Gen. since there is no contradiction. I understand that Jesus is God, (the Father and Son are ONE with Holy Spirit), so then Jesus (the Son) is creator God, Jesus (the Son) is He who spoke with Abraham that day.

John 8:58 "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, 'I am'"

Jesus takes the name of Almight God who revealed Himself to Moses on the Mountain; (Ex.3:14) Jesus is saying He is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
peace to youraise:

 

[J. Jump]

John 8:56: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad."

The words of Jesus, if you will accept it.

There is no reason to reconcile the passage in Gen. since there is no contradiction. I understand that Jesus is God, (the Father and Son are ONE with Holy Spirit), so then Jesus (the Son) is creator God, Jesus (the Son) is He who spoke with Abraham that day.

John 8:58 "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, 'I am'"

Jesus takes the name of Almight God who revealed Himself to Moses on the Mountain; (Ex.3:14) Jesus is saying He is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

That's what I thought. Nowhere in Scripture does it say Abraham placed his faith in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God to pay his sin debt.

Abraham was not told to believe that, but was told to believe God regarding his descendants.

He was saved by grace through faith, but God did not require of him to believe in the same thing we believe in. To say otherwise is just plainly ignoring Scripture.