Who did Christ die for?

Well what does "whole world" mean if it doesn't really mean whole world ?

 

Ask the calvinists...

 

Let me take a swing at this.

Christ died so that all mankind who believed in Him might be saved. All mankind was already condemned and there was nothing any of them/us could do about it. (see Jn 3:17)

So, those who died before Christ were saved according to their faith/belief that was looking forward to the time of the Messiah.

So yes, Christ died for all mankind, even those who died in the OT. All mankind, however, will not accept His sacrifice and will therefore die in their sins according to their own unbelief in which they were already condemned.

 

Either I have misunderstood you, Brother James, or you have misunderstood me. I was thinking of a child whose father was a Christian. Sadly my Dad is not one, so my feelings as a child don't really come into it. All I was trying to say in my previous post was that it is not always right just to take the most obviously straightforward meaning of a verse in the bible as being correct. Using the example I gave of Luke 14.26 (Jesus saying that a person must hate his nearest and dearest to be His disciple), I wonder how many children would understand "hate" to mean "love less"?

 

I appreciate the reply.
Jesus' death for sinners was only applied to OT believers since they were saved due to their faith in the coming Messiah.
And Jesus' death did not remove the condemnation that OT unbelievers are eternally under due to their unbelief.

So Jesus' death only atoned for the sins committed by the OT believers.
His death could not take away the sins of those who died in unbelief.

Agree or disagree?

 

Well we cqan't discount the power of God to do whatsoever He wills but,

Christ's blood covers only those who believe according to the plain teaching of the Word. No where is there an example of an unbeliever who was saved.

This does NOT lead me to believe that God selected who the believers would be. My belief is that God choses those who do believe.

 

interesting exchange these two beautiful sisters are having.
but may I ask:

who is the believer and who is the unbeliever ?
believer in and of what ?

if the believer is the one who hears the gospel, or looked forward to the coming of a Messiah, or backwards to the Messiah that came, then election is now dependent on the chosen one's belief, and not the choosing One's will, grace and mercy, is that not so ?

Therefore, can it not be safely said that God's children before the cross were only those that resided in Bible lands, and confined to those who later became national Israel, as well as the strangers who joined them, and came to believe in the same Messiah the believer Jews were hoping for, and God had no children outside of these classes of people ?

And we can extend this logic all the way to the time of the cross, and past, and, past the cross, we now add the gospel as a factor to one's election ?

therefore, the mass of humanity is beyond God's mercy, grace, and will because they believe not ?

 

But you're the one who said this, webdog. and I know you're not an inch a Calvinist.

Were you just being sarcastic ?

 

Let's look at something the Bible says....

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death so that by the grace of God HE MIGHT TASTE DEATH FOR EVERYONE..
Hebrews 2:9

I think the Bible answers quite clearly who Jesus died for. What part of 'everyone' is unclear?

ALL sin was covered by His death.

Unlike the other high priests, he [Jesus] does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, forst for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE FOR ALL when he offered himself.
Hebrews 7:27

Now, you can choose "all" the people or "all the sins" in the above quote, and either way it denies Reformed doctrine. "All" is "all."

Regarding OT folk,

It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, BECAUSE OF THEIR DISOBEDIENCE. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice
do not harden your hearts."
Hebrews 4:6-7

In other words, they were not denied salvation because God did not choose them, but because they were disobedient. And it is also evident from the fact that the plea to 'do not harden your hearts' is repeated in Hebrews 4, that it is very much up to the individual as to how he or she will respond to God. It is not 'hardwired' in -- it is a matter of choice.

Either that or the writer to the Hebrews should have been commited for being a lunatic! Not to mention teaching wrong doctrine!

 

Me? Sarcastic? Naahhh...

 

I've made my postion ultra-clear regarding this topic on numerous past posts . But it never hurts to repeat Bible truths .

Christ Jesus died for ( on behalf of , in the stead of , in the room of ) certain sinners . The ones for which He died have had their names enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world . They are the only ones to be saved . Even non-Cals have to admit that much . I don't embrace hypothetical salvation . There was nothing potential about Christ's death . He came to secure salvation for His own . His death for His own satisfied the Father's wrath .

Christ did not die for those whose condemnation has long been marked out .There are those for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever . He did not die for Cain , Esau , Judas , Pharaoh and a host of others down through the centuries .

Christ died for His sheep -- not goats . He died for the ones He has loved . He died for the ones He knows -- not for the ones who He will declare : "I have never known you."

The Lord did not die for any who will go to the Lake of Fire . He did not die for their sins only for them to face an eternity to pay for those same sins .

He died for the Church , His Body , His Bride , His elect , His children , His own , His purchased possession . With His blood He purchased for God members of every tribe and language and poeople and nation . He died for the church of God which He purchased with His own blood . Christ loved US and gave himself up for US = the church which He loved . He did not love and die for the non-church . He died for His sheep . He laid down His life for them .

All that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him , and no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them . The drawing always results in a saving union with the Lord -- there is nothing partial about it .

So He set His love upon some -( foreknowledge ) - the ones of His choosing . He predestined them , called them , justified them , and glorified ( spoken in the past tense because it is certain ) them .

 

amen, Brother Rippon. Thanks for these truths.

 

A former Limited Atonementist

Christ died for every last human being, hence our Lord offers salvation to every last human being. Unfortunately not every last human being responds positively to the gospel.

I formerly held, some years ago, to the LIMITED ATONEMENT position. The ridiculous manipulation of Scripture and the treatise necessary to explain clear language so that it could be justified to mean something else, simply became clear.

I remember it involved 1 John 2:2 and reading material supporting my then position on Limited Atonement. The volume of explanation and necessary metamorphosis of plain and clear language had its fill and I recall just staring for a while and thinking of just how much had to be forced instead of received as it was most plainly written, not just there but in so many passages that I took inventory and laid aside any personal interests I may have built in to such a theological system and position and rediscovered the truth.

Christ died for all men so that whosoever believes may have eternal life.

 

Except what you are espousing are not truths but non-biblical doctrines.

See? I told you it was non-biblical. Here's what the Bible itself says:
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2:9

What part of 'everyone' is unclear?

Wrong. If this were true no one's name could be erased from the Book of Life. See Exodus 32:32-33 and Revelation 3:5.

There is nothing hypothetical about salvation. Atonement was achieved on the cross, not salvation. Salvation is a personal matter between the individual and the Lord, but it would be impossible without the atonement for ALL people which was made on the cross. Everyone could be saved, but the Lord has left it up to each of us regarding how to respond to Him and to the truth, which in its totality, is Him. This is the primary message of the entire Bible.

According to the writer to the Hebrews, He died for all, one time for all. Evidently you disagree. This is one of the reasons I consider the Reformed theology to be non-biblical.

He died for all. He loved all. We are ALL His creation and He never created anything for the purpose of hating it. That is absolutely against His character, for John tells us simply that God IS love. If you look at the parable of the sheep and the goats you will find that the difference noted in the parable itself by Christ HIMSELF is what they did, not what they were. In fact, biologically, goats and sheep are the same animal, just as all dogs are the same animal. They have been bred through the ages to produce differently and thus were artificially speciated by man, just as dogs and horses have been, but they are the same animal. Therefore the claim that they were chosen because of what they were holds no water in this theological argument.

In addition, when He declared to the false teachers "I have never known you," Christ was NOT declaring He was not aware of who they were, first of all, but rather that He had not had a close, intimate relationship with them, regardless of the fact that they had, quite literally, used His Name in vain. You are pulling these references WILDLY out of context in order to support your non-biblical position in theology. That does not fly.

That is not what the Bible says. The Bible clearly states that God so loved the world, that He is not willing that one should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He tasted death for everyone, one time for all. These things are extraordinarily clearly stated. Christ died to atone for sins -- all sins. The debt was paid in full, as He Himself declared when He used the financial term for debt paid on the cross, "It is finished!"

He told the people clearly what was required for salvation on their parts:

You are from below ['kato' -- meaning 'the ground', 'the earth' -- it does not mean 'hell' and never did]; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.
John 8:23-24

The phrase "I am the one I claim to be" is, in the Greek "ego eimi" which, when literally translated, means "I am I am" -- He was using the name by which God identified Himself to Moses.

Thus, these listeners clearly had a choice presented to them by Jesus Himself. Would they believe He is God, yes or no? That choice is presented to each of us and on our answer hangs our eternal destiny. The way to salvation was provided for every person alive by Christ, but He left it up to us to accept or reject (neither of which is a 'work').

Yes, He did. He also died for the whole world, which is clearly stated in the Bible several times.

That's true. But the Father draws those who want the truth. This is the lesson of Romans 1. This is also the call of Christ: "Come to me all ye that labor and are heavy-laden..." It amazes me to think that this verse might be twisted to either change the meaning of 'all' or to somehow put forward the absurd idea that only the souls predestined to be saved are somehow those who labor and are heavy-laden!

If you take a look at the predestination passages IN CONTEXT, you will find that believers are predestined to become changed to be the image of Christ, and that the method of that change was predestined. The Bible NEVER states that it is predestined about who would believe.

Reformed theology is a horrifying model which brings despair to many and quite a bit of very evident pride and snottiness to others. The attitude of many of the Calvinists here (those who believe in Reformed theology) is something I have cringed to watch over all the years I have been on Baptist Board. I simply do not find the character of Christ in much of what is written here by Calvinists, and it is THAT which should be seen in anyone who is His true follower.

 

Hi Helen,
That deserves an A men

 

Helen:

Your whole thesis is dependent on the Bible being written and addressed to all humankind, which it is not.
The Bible was written for God's people, and only for God's people, just as Christ's blood was shed only for His own, and for nobody else but His own.
Therefore when the writer of Hebrews says "all" he is obviously referring to all who belong to God, whom God Himself has called by their names, and loved before they loved Him.

You said:

"Reformed theology is a horrifying model which brings despair to many and quite a bit of very evident pride and snottiness to others. The attitude of many of the Calvinists here (those who believe in Reformed theology) is something I have cringed to watch over all the years I have been on Baptist Board. I simply do not find the character of Christ in much of what is written here by Calvinists, and it is THAT which should be seen in anyone who is His true follower.".

I am not a Reformed Theologist but have friends who are, on both sides of the fence as well. And what you said, like what the thread starter said in his second or third post on this thread, cuts both ways.

Here you are calling an entire theology horrifying and causing despair, prideful and snotty.

What's the difference between that and someone saying a certain race of people causes crime rates to rise and property values to drop ?

 

What does this mean?

I agree, Jesus' death was only efficacious for believers in the OT not the unbelievers. His atonement is limited to only those who believe. And since He knew from the beginning who would believe and who would not, He knew exactly which sinners would be atoned for and which would not. So He eternally atoned for the sins of believers and now the unbelievers must eternally pay the wages of their own sins.
Agreed?

I realize that you don't believe in unconditional election.
But I don't see the point in saying that God chooses those who choose Him.
That's like saying that you picked me to be on your team because you knew that I picked you already.
It's a circular choice and therefore illogical. I've already chosen your team, you don't need to choose me. I'm already standing on your side.
So why does God need to choose people who have already chosen Him?
His choice is redundant and unnecessary according to your statements.
Are you with me so far?

 

See you're not interacting with the argument either.
Why would Jesus die for all the human beings who were already in hell by the time He came?
What is the purpose of dying for them? How could He?
He could no longer save them, their destiny has been set.
His death could atone for those who believed, but was useless to the unbelievers.

Christ paid for the sins of all who believe and none of the unbeliever's sins.

You can't have it both ways.

Jesus on one hand, knowing who every believer is from Person A to Person Z, yet on the other hand, dying to save to all the unbelievers from Person 1 to 10.

If you acknowledge that Jesus knows infallibably who the believers are, then you must acknowledge that He knew infallibably at the time of the cross who He had to atone for and who He did not. Therefore to insist that Jesus died for many sinners who he knew would not believe is to bring confusion into the Godhead and the plan of Redemption.

This is why Open Theism appeals to some non-Calvinists. It takes away Christ's exhaustive foreknowledge, because it realizes that He could only suffer and die for everyone if He did not know who would believe or not believe. In order for Redemption to make sense, Christ could not know beforehand who His death would positively affect.
Many non-Calvinists cannot affirm what Open Theism teaches about God's lack of omniscience, but yet they cannot explain how Jesus can truly die for every person all the while knowing the final outcome of every soul.
Non-Calvinists who are not univeralists, limit Jesus death to only believers, yet cry out against the Calvinists who also only limit it to believers.
Calvinists do so because they recognize the purpose of Jesus' death, to save a people given to Him by His Father.
Non-Calvinists limit His death, because they realize that unbelievers are eternally lost and therefore Jesus' death does not apply to them.
Univeralists never limit Christ's death because God will eventually reconcile every person to Himself therefore Christ's death is necessary for all.
Non-Calvinists speak in contradictary terms: Christ's death is necessary for all, yet it does not save all.
Calvinists say: Christ's death is only necessary for believers and saves every single believer.


I've said alot, most of which will pass right through the eyegates of the non-Calvinist without causing a stir on the belief system.
But perhaps someone is trying to think these things through and for them I write.

 

Pinoy, mind explaining this, from scripture, before I have a heart attack from shock?????

Isaiah:

We can't discount the power of God to do as He wills because He will do that He wishes to do. Therefore, our explanation of why/how God does anything, must include the facts of what He is able to accomplish. Basically, that statement was insurance that no one think my reply limited God in any way.

I do believe that God knew there would be humans that would seek His will rather than their own. I even believe that as He knows both the future and the past, being the Alpha and the Omega, that He knew from the foundation of the world exactly which humans would accept Him and that He planned for that occurance. This is less like your quote and more like the coach of the team making preparations for the team he knew would be coming. Does that explain my position better?