Who did Christ die for?

Isaiah, because I am limited in time I haven't read you last post completely and am only responding to a couple of things that popped out at me when I skimmed through:

First off, mankind is destined for hell because of unbelief. There was no one in hell before Christ came that was a believer. Those in hell had already chosen not to believe.

Bolding mine for the purposes of clarity.

It does not bring confusion into the Godhead to understand that Christ's blood would/should cover every single sin every single human who ever lived on the face of the earth has ever committed in their lifetime. To not believe such limits the value of Christ's sacrifice and the power of God to provide salvation at all!

Only those who deny that man has a choice he must make for himself, would limit our blessed Lord in such a way. And I don't believe that even the Calvinists on this board deny that a man must accept Christ for salvation to occur.

 

Not to de-rail this thread, but...
If the Bible was not written to lost people also, then how are they to learn of Jesus and His offer of salvation? Why does God have to tell those who are already His, "For 'whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved'"? (Romans 10:13, NKJV) Don't those who already belong to Him know this? Why even mention it?

 

I'm just not sure what could be seen as limiting God.
Your initial statement followed mine wherein I said:

Do you think it is limiting God to say that Jesus' death could not (not because He didn't suffer enough) take away the sins of those who died in unbelief?

But the coach's infalliable knowledge of who will be on His team prevents him from trying to recruit members from the another team. He knows they will never join his team, so why does he send his "assisant coach" to try to woo them to his team and his "firstborn son" to pay their sponsership fees? What's the point? Why would the coach do that?
Is he confused or just uselessly hoping against hope that maybe one more can be persuaded to join his team?

 

If all sin was atoned for, including the sins of unbelievers, why did Jesus say this?

Jhn 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins."

How can they die in their sins if their sins are atoned for?

 

Give that lady a cigar, or reasonable facsimile.

 

I second that. :thumbs:

 

Thank you!

 

Right on, Amy.

 

Actually you haven't one word from scripture to stand on. The gospel is intended to be preached to the whole world. Not to mention we were all just vessle of wrath before we were saved. We are all sinners and we all belong to who we serve. We started out serving Satan because we are guilty of rebellion . We were not His until Salvation. Otherwise Christ died for nothing. We are chosen "in Him" because He chose to die for us all.
MB

 

The gospel is preached to everyone, but why do you think the Bible was written to everyone?
Paul addresses all his letters to the brethren, believers. Unbelievers haven't the slightest desire to study God's word.


1Cr 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Edit: Actually, the gospel hasn't been preached to everyone. Many have died never hearing.

 

Perhaps a new thread for "who the Bible was written for" could be started?

 

There is another scripture in Corinthians along the same thought.

So actually I have two legs of Scripture to stand on.

 

Right, so why did Christ die for them?

I have not stated that Christ's death was not sufficient for all which I think is what you are arguing for. It was sufficient for all if that had been the intent.
I'm arguing that it was not intended for all. Christ's death was intended for believers only. He did not die with the intention of saving those who were at the time of his death already in hell.

 

Baloney. Before Abraham lived, Job lived. He is Jobab, the thirteenth son of Joktan the nephew of Peleg. He wrote, "I know that my Redeemer lives." Job 19:25.

Go back further. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. All righteousness is in Christ Jesus. The Promise of God was known from the beginning and was for all people, which is why God told Abraham
"...all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you." Genesis 12:3

And again, are you trying to say that only the chosen labor and are heavy-laden? Jesus said, clearly, "Come unto me ALL ye that labor and are heavy-laden."

The Promise of God has been known from the time of Adam and Eve. Christ is the fulfillment of that Promise. The Gospel, in one form or another, has been available to every man who ever lived so that each person may choose for himself how to respond to God.

The Bible itself is a compilation of the histories and other writings set down by the Jews, whom God chose to reveal Himself to the WORLD. The Bible is for everyone.

And I know quite a few people who are quite expert in knowing what the Bible says who are in no way, shape, or form believers. A great many people are curious about it who are not believers. Thank God sometimes those who are curious recognize the truth and become believers.

No, it was written for Gentiles, too....

It doesn't matter how many times you say that, the Bible disagrees.

Forcing your interpretation on clear words (everyone doesn't mean everyone, right???), does not make your interpretation correct.

There's an enormous difference. People choose what to believe. We cannot choose what our physical features will be. By the way, there is only one race of people. The human race.

I am remarking on the words and behavior I have seen out of a number of people who adhere to the Reformation theology. I do not see Christ's character in many of them.

------------

Amy, there is a difference between atonement for sins and salvation. All sins are atoned for. Hebrews tells us Jesus tasted death for EVERYONE. Therefore the way has been paved for EVERYONE to come to salvation. But the gate is narrow, remember? Not many find it. To find something implies you have been looking. Call it a work if you like, but that is what the Bible says. Salvation is the result of our response to what God has offered. We have the freedom to say yea or nay, to want the truth or to suppress it and prefer evil and the lie.

Any person who refuses Jesus dies in their sins. The sins have been paid for, and it is a payment the Father has accepted. But forgiveness is another matter altogether. Suppose someone murdered your mother. The law sends your mother to trial and the verdict is read and punishment meted out. But forgiveness is not at all the same, is it? That sin has been atoned for, possibly by the murderer's death. But forgiveness is a heart matter. In the case of sin it is between the sinner and God. It involves recognition that sin is sin, repentance, and then God's graceful forgiveness -- which was made possible by Christ's sacrifice on the cross and would not have been possible any other way, for God's justice had to be satisfied before forgiveness could be offered. Nevertheless, the two are entirely different.

To die in your sins means forgiveness had not been granted. The legal qualifications have been met, but not the personal ones. And in the long run, a relationship with God is a highly personal affair.

And again, regarding your last post, has the Gospel been preached to everyone? Paul says it has.

"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
'Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.'"
Romans 10:17-18

In this passage Paul is quoting Psalm 19, which is referring to the testimony in the heavens themselves. You may be interested in this link:

http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html

Keep in mind that the glory of God is NOT pretty little twinkling stars...

 

Let me start by answering your question about limiting God. You haven't been very long. Certain of the Calvinists here believe that God's power/will is somehow limited by the idea that man must make the choice to believe in order to be saved. I often try to pre empt such discussions by making it clear that I do not believe God is limited at all by man and is only limited by those rules He makes for Himself.

As far as this particular quote is stated, I agree. However (I always have a however. ), however, The promise of Christ's substitutionary death was known from the beginning. (Gen 3:15) In this way, God offered a perfect sacrifice sufficient to cover the sins of the world. That it would in effect only cover the sins of those who would believe, doesn't mean it would have been sufficient for everyone if everyone had believed.

I don't believe that it can be shown from scripture that God only intended for Christ's death to pay for only the sins of those who believed. Indeed, my Bible reads that God is not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance. (See the verse below in my sig line)

 

I used to quote that verse all the time too, but the fact is that many will perish and not all will come to repentance.

So, if it's God's will that they don't perish, why do they?

 

This doesn't make sense to me.
Our sins are paid for but we're not forgiven??

Has God not forgiven the debt that we owe? Isn't that what atonement is all about?

If our sins have been atoned for and justice has been met, then my sins are gone from my record, therefore I cannot die in my sins. Yet, the Bible says that some will die in their sins.

[/QUOTE]Are you saying that general revelation is salvation?

There are many who have never heard the gospel of Christ and never even heard of Jehovah God, the great IAM, and died without ever knowing.

 

I believe this is the verse you have misquoted, here.

Welcome to the BB. But expect to get called when you misquote a verse, especially when you are claiming any given version. A word to the wise.

BTW, the KJV does not word this as you did, either.

Nor do any of the other 19 versions in English on Bible Gateway.

Ed

 

Because God has placed conditions on His will. God had rather all come to repentence, but if they won't, He's not going to force them. God wants willing followers, not robots, not forced laborers.

I know you asked this of Helen, but I hope you don't mind if I put in my two cents:

Forgiveness is offered. Christ's blood is sufficient for every man's sin, but every man will not accept the gift.

Like this: I'm driving a bus down a rain swept highway and come upon a man walking. I stop the bus, open the door and ask "won't you come in?" Now I have offered him something. I would even like for him to come in from the rain. There's plenty of room on the bus. But if he says no, what then what happens? He stays wet, the seat on the bus stays empty and as much as I hate to leave him alone in the rain, I drive the bus on, what more can I do?

So God loved us sooo much that provided a way for us all to come to Him. But many refuse. Loving God and loving their neighbor as much as they love themselves goes againt their selfish ways. Even the idea of all their needs being met is not enough to tempt them into accepting. And God lets them go.

Paul says that the general revelation of the majesty of God IS enough to point a person toward God. That even those who have not heard the gospel preach do have enough information to lead them to seek God. If they seek they will find. One can not say that any died without chosing because they never had any inkling as the Bible clearly states that they are without excuse.

 

Hi Amy,

For the higher things of God this is true. However the higher things aren't needed for the man to begin to believe.
It isn't man who saves Him self. God does. And if what you have just said above is so then what the same man said in Romans 1:20 lied. We can't have both lies and truth in scripture. It's either Paul lied in Romans or there is something you reject in Corinthians that would make you think what you have just said. If you'll read from say verse 10 down in Corinthians you'll know what Paul is talking about and that is the higher things of God. The higher things of God even baby Christians doesn't know. Ask your self do you know all there is to know about God and you'll understand that you don't, no one does. However it is always possible to know more than you do with God's help.

Many have had this knowledge of God with in ( Romans 1:20) Natural men know right from wrong most try to live by this Law with in. Should the natural man wonder where this law came from? Truth is they do and this is the drawing to the truth. It's the work of God that they know because God placed it in there hearts. Most deny it because they rebel against the idea of a power greater than them selves. God doesn't send men to hell they send them selves there in their rebellion.
As far as Christ dying for the world world How else could He possibly be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The natural man is lost not because Christ didn't die for him but, because, Christ did die for him and the natural man denies Him any way. The propitiation is only effective for those who receive it, and everyone can if they are willing to accept it.
MB