Who did Christ die for?

[Allan]

What "facts" have you presented? I'd consider them true statements if they were backed up by scripture rather than conjecture. I don't believe that the sins of OT times were covered until the coming of Christ. There was a First Covenant which they were subject to. Are you claiming that the FC was meaningless? Christ came to establish a New Covenant.

WHAT???

What about those BEFORE the FC?
As for conjecture...trying doing a little study it might help a bit.
Since most of the people I am speaking with claim to know about the Atonement they should also know about the OT Atonement. Thus I have no need of giving verses out right unless they really do not know.

 

[JustChristian]

WHAT???

What about those BEFORE the FC?
As for conjecture...trying doing a little study it might help a bit.
Since most of the people I am speaking with claim to know about the Atonement they should also know about the OT Atonement. Thus I have no need of giving verses out right unless they really do not know.

In other words you can't answer my question.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

What "facts" have you presented? I'd consider them true statements if they were backed up by scripture rather than conjecture. I don't believe that the sins of OT times were covered until the coming of Christ. There was a First Covenant which they were subject to. Are you claiming that the FC was meaningless? Christ came to establish a New Covenant.

The person you are addressing, Allan, in other posts has covered this. Now if you really want his thoughts you can click on his name and search his posts instead of demanding he repost many of the posts he has already posted you could do some very easy clicking and reading....IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW. Not to mention reading through this thread and several related threads where the very Scriptures and exposition is provided.

I think what you want though is to play a game of POST A TREATISE OR ELSE YOU LOSE. This is a message board, not a THESIS COMPARISON contest. There is a reasonable amount of assumption that takes place when people engage in deeper theological discussions and if you aren't equipped with that maybe you are where you don't belong.

If you have a specific point of contention bring it up but demanding a TREATISE every time someone posts is ludicrous and disingenuous.

 

[Jarthur001]

EDITTED

Same as mine and yours and Pauls and Peters...

Well he died for all my sins.

Peter... Do you think that Christ died for Peter sins when Peter denied Christ all 3 times, or just once?

I John 3:12

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And why slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

Did Christ pay for the sin of Cains killing of his brother with His own blood, and thereby making Cain right before God?

If so, why is Cain in hell?


While you are at it. I have asked a few times to others. Does God love those in Hell?

 

[Allan]

The person you are addressing, Allan, in other posts has covered this. Now if you really want his thoughts you can click on his name and search his posts instead of demanding he repost many of the posts he has already posted you could do some very easy clicking and reading....IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW. Not to mention reading through this thread and several related threads where the very Scriptures and exposition is provided.

I think what you want though is to play a game of POST A TREATISE OR ELSE YOU LOSE. This is a message board, not a THESIS COMPARISON contest. There is a reasonable amount of assumption that takes place when people engage in deeper theological discussions and if you aren't equipped with that maybe you are where you don't belong.

If you have a specific point of contention bring it up but demanding a TREATISE every time someone posts is ludicrous and disingenuous.

Well said !

 

[Jarthur001]

The person you are addressing, Allan, in other posts has covered this. Now if you really want his thoughts you can click on his name and search his posts instead of demanding he repost many of the posts he has already posted you could do some very easy clicking and reading....IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW. Not to mention reading through this thread and several related threads where the very Scriptures and exposition is provided.

I think what you want though is to play a game of POST A TREATISE OR ELSE YOU LOSE. This is a message board, not a THESIS COMPARISON contest. There is a reasonable amount of assumption that takes place when people engage in deeper theological discussions and if you aren't equipped with that maybe you are where you don't belong.

If you have a specific point of contention bring it up but demanding a TREATISE every time someone posts is ludicrous and disingenuous.

I for one disagree.

If you do not have the time to read Allans post, skip them. I write long ones at time myself. Not as much now, because I don't have the time. Still, if I wish to write a treatise...or as close as I can get to one, I will do this very thing.

Allan, post as you wish. If we do not want to read it...we will not.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

I for one disagree.

If you do not have the time to read Allans post, skip them. I write long ones at time myself. Not as much now, because I don't have the time. Still, if I wish to write a treatise...or as close as I can get to one, I will do this very thing.

Allan, post as you wish. If we do not want to read it...we will not.

I wasn't posting TO Allan...you have misunderstood my post.

 

[Jarthur001]

I wasn't posting TO Allan...you have misunderstood my post.

In other words...you want all others that do not believe as you, to keep their post short. Ok...got it.

 

[Jarthur001]

I wasn't posting TO Allan...you have misunderstood my post.

Lets do it short...

I started my posting on this thread asking this..

When does God start hating people?

It was answered...God never changes.

If that be true....how do we deal with passages that say God hates some people?

 

[Allan]

Well he died for all my sins.

Peter... Do you think that Christ died for Peter sins when Peter denied Christ all 3 times, or just once?

I John 3:12

He paid for it all, or do you not believe that?

Did Christ pay for the sin of Cains killing of his brother with His own blood, and thereby making Cain right before God?

If so, why is Cain in hell?

You bet.

The same reason I stated to you just earlier.
The propitiation made by Christ is recieved through faith. (Rom 3:25)

While you are at it. I have asked a few times to others. Does God love those in Hell?

There comes a place where God "gives them over" because they will not believe/receive the truth.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Or Rom 1:

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Or Acts

Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices [by the space of] forty years in the wilderness?

for just a few

 

[Jarthur001]

You bet.

There comes a place where God "gives them over" because they will not believe/receive the truth.)

I'll get back to this statement later. I want to address this 1st.
Not to be hard nosed, but what I asked was about God loving these people

Does he still love them?

 

[Lou Martuneac]

I'll let Pink address 1 John 2:2

Jarthur:

My question to you is; What does the Bible say?

“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all,” (Isaiah 53:6).

“And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world,” (1 John 2:2).

Without filtering an answer through Pink's Calvinistic trappings of logic and reason; according to the plain sense of these verses, who did Christ die for?


LM

 

[EdSutton]

Tagline of Isaiah 40:28 -

>"Dizzy chickens are not that rare. --mes228"<

Observation of EdSutton

>Neither are dizzy posts!"< 'Cause I sure see a bunch of them on the BB. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Allan]

I'll get back to this statement later. I want to address this 1st.
Not to be hard nosed, but what I asked was about God loving these people

Does he still love them?

How about this one James:

Did He have any love for them at all? :laugh:

 

[Allan]

That is limited atonement.




This is general atonement or universal atonement.

Actaully Amy, most EVERY person who holds to Universal Atonement makes these same statements.

Christ died for those who will believe - This is NOT "Limited Atonement" which holds Christ died ONLY for those who will believe and no one else.

Christ dieing for those who will believe does not negate the fact He ALSO died as a propitiation for Whole World, and not ours ONLY.

 

[Amy.G]

Actaully Amy, most EVERY person who holds to Universal Atonement makes these same statements.

Christ died for those who will believe - This is NOT "Limited Atonement" which holds Christ died ONLY for those who will believe and no one else.

Christ dieing for those who will believe does not negate the fact He ALSO died as a propitiation for Whole World, and not ours ONLY.

Well, several have tried to convince me that Christ died for all those souls who will spend eternity in hell, but I just don't see it.
To me, that's like saying that if God knew no one would accept Christ as Savior, He would have died for their sins anyway.

 

[Helen]

Amy, you are arguing against the Bible on this one. However, it should also be noted that if we actually understood everything God did we would be His equals! We are not. We are His creation.

JArthur, you asked if God still loved people who were condemned. I think that it is easy to think of hate as the opposite of love, but it is not. Both are a form of caring. The opposite of that caring, though, is to not care, or to ignore. The opposite of loving is to not care at all.

Are you willing to postulate that God does not care at all, and ignores, those who are condemned?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, you are arguing against the Bible on this one. However, it should also be noted that if we actually understood everything God did we would be His equals! We are not. We are His creation.

I am not arguing against the Bible intentionally, Helen. I see things differently than you do maybe, but like you say, we can't understand everything and that includes "all" of us. :laugh: And I do not think I am God's equal.

 

[Helen]

Amy, when Hebrews 2 tells us Christ tasted death for everyone, how do you understand that? What does that mean to you?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, when Hebrews 2 tells us Christ tasted death for everyone, how do you understand that? What does that mean to you?

If Christ tasted death for everyone, does that mean that everyone receives eternal life?
Everyone dies, the saved and the unsaved, so what does it mean to say Christ tasted death for everyone since everyone dies?