Who did decide.....

[Johnv]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Everyone agrees that the Ten Commandments should be followed, but the dietary law should not. Were they not all part of the same Law?

In reference to what you're referring to, there were thre types of OT Law:

1 - Civil Law: These were laws that governed the early Israelite community. These laws are no longer in force.

2 - Rabbinnic Law: These were laws of ceremony, used to demonstrate obedience. These laws are no longer in force today. Some Christians, such as Messianics, still observe some or all of them. But they do not observe them out of obedience, they observe them out of a sense of them making good common sense, and/or out of respect for God.

3 - Moral Law: As the title suggests, these are laws of morality. The Ten Commandments are an example of moral laws. These are in full force today, though, not for achieving righteousness, but for living rightly.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Major B:
So, do you worship from sundown Friday night until sundown Saturday night? That is the Sabbath.

That's the observance of the Sabbath. The spirit of the Commandment is not to observe (Jesus noted that the Sabbath was made for man, and not the other way around). The spirit of the Commandment is to take one day in seven to rest, and to worship. Most of us agree that, as Christians, we are to worship every day, not just one day. However, few of us truly, truly take one day in seven to rest. And by not doing so, we're violating this commandment.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I don't know John, some of us rest one day in seven. Just the meaning of the word rest has changed. Most of us don't think that simply doing nothing all day(except for worship) is relaxing, therefore it can't be rest. So we find some project or another to "work" on, because it is relaxing. When I was a kid, Sundays were spent visiting relatives or taking a "ride" out in the country. (We didn't live in our cars back then, rides were special) But we weren't exactly resting in the manner laid out in Jewish law.

This is another good example of my original question. Where'd did we come up with the traditions that we hold to now and how was it decided? Where do we draw the line between moral law and simple tradition/cultural preferences?

Btw, I didn't know that there were three different types of Jewish law. I think I always considered #1 and #2 above to be grouped together.

 

[EdSutton]

to LADY mk: Always nice to get a nibble. But that cannot be the Scripture I was hunting, for that is not what it says. We'll look at it in a sec.
Johnv: I think you are substantially correct in the three sub-divisions of one Mosaic Law. WE sometimes refer to it as the Torah or the Pentateuch- Genesis thru Deuteronomy. The specific precepts of it are contained in the Books from Exodus to Deuteronomy. Two familiar 'shorthand' expressions for it are simply 'Moses' and 'The Law'. Jesus used both of these, himself.
And they were used for all five books. There are other expressions in the NT, as well.

But I think a problem arises when we try to read into Scripture, as opposed to reading FROM Scripture. And that is part of what is going on here. It is not done, IMO, deliberately, but comes from the 'canonized rhetoric' that gets tossed around too often.
For whatever reason, we tend to suggest that the 'Big Ten' i.e., what is called the 'Moral Law' is the most important, and that somehow it is This is a classic case. What we may think, even while reading, that Scripture says, is not necessarily what Scripture IS saying. Here goes: See for yourself!

genesis12 described it this way:
"Not everyone agrees that the Ten Commandments should be followed per se. They are contained in the two commandments described by Jesus: Love God, and your neighbor as yourself."
straightandnarrow, this way:
"True, but since Christ said that all the Commandments were summed up in Love God and love your neighbor, that means..."

I submit that there is exactly one sentence out of three that I quoted that is accurate, and that is the first by gen12. And I happen to be one of those gen12 speaks of.

The actual words of Jesus from Matt.22, in answer to the question of the Scribe (lawyer) as to the most important law was:
" 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”"
Mark 12:28-31 says sustantially the same thing, but does not say, "On these... hang...the prophets." It however does add: "There is no other commandment greater than these. "

Did you get it? I'll get back to this tomorrow with some exegesis. And some questions.
G'nite!
Ed

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
I don't know John, some of us rest one day in seven. Just the meaning of the word rest has changed. Most of us don't think that simply doing nothing all day(except for worship) is relaxing, therefore it can't be rest. So we find some project or another to "work" on, because it is relaxing.

I concur with you here. God demands that we rest one day in seven. Aside from telling us to refrain from the labor we normally do the ither 6 days, God doesn't give us a "list" of what constitutes rest and what doesn't. For me, spending the day at Disneyland with the Mrs is quite relaxing and refreshing. Some days, I enjoy doing the laundry. My wife absolutely loves the fact that I find that relaxing...

 

[menageriekeeper]

Some days, I enjoy doing the laundry. My wife absolutely loves the fact that I find that relaxing...

I think I need to introduce you to my husband.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Major B:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
True, but since Christ said that all the Commandments were summed up in Love God and love your neighbor, that means that in order to follow Christ's two we still need to follow all ten of the original commandments.

So, do you worship from sundown Friday night until sundown Saturday night? That is the Sabbath. </font>[/QUOTE]The Sabbath was redefined by the early church to be Sunday to coincide with Christ's resurrection. Therefore, yes, I do keep the Sabbath.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The Sabbath is the Sabbath is the Sabbath.

True, the early church set the precedent for worshipping on the first day of the week, but that does not make it the Sabbath.

 

[Major B]

Amen, Hope of Glory--the "early church" has no authority (we call that tradition). The Sabbath was, and is, the Jewish Sabbath, with all of the rules that good orthodox Jews recognize. The Lord's day, Sunday, is not a Sabbath, unless you can show verses which say, "The Lord commanded that the Sabbath be changed to the first day of the week."

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
The Sabbath is the Sabbath is the Sabbath.

True, the early church set the precedent for worshipping on the first day of the week, but that does not make it the Sabbath.

True, but which day is the first day and which is the last is completelty arbitrary. In fact, I have a business calendar that has Monday as the first day of the week. Since the 7 day week as observed today has not been consistently adhered to in history, the "7th" day today is likely not the same day it was in the days of Moses. In fact, the 7th day in Moses time was set arbitrarily, and was likely not the same day as the last day of creation. So to argue which day of the week is the seventh day is an excercise in futility. Even Jesus noted that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. So you can't point to any one day on the calendar week and say "that's the day God chose".

 

[here now]

Everyday is the Sabbath. So let's all rest in the Lord, EVERYDAY.

 

[webdog]

1 - Civil Law: These were laws that governed the early Israelite community. These laws are no longer in force.

I would add that we are under our own "civil" laws as applied today. Cheating on your tax return is sin, as it breaks the law governing us.

 

[RayMarshall19]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
The Sabbath is the Sabbath is the Sabbath.

True, the early church set the precedent for worshipping on the first day of the week, but that does not make it the Sabbath.

True, but which day is the first day and which is the last is completelty arbitrary.

SAYS WHO?

In fact, I have a business calendar that has Monday as the first day of the week.

WHAT DOES YOUR BUSINESS CALENDAR HAVE TO DO WITH SCRIPTURE?

In fact, the 7th day in Moses time was set arbitrarily, and was likely not the same day as the last day of creation.

SAYS WHO?

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[RayMarshall19]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Just which parts of the Old Testament should continue to be followed and which became obsolete upon Christ's ressurction?

Everyone agrees that the Ten Commandments should be followed, but the dietary law should not. Were they not all part of the same Law?

Historical and scriptural references accepted.

Paul wrote three different letters to three different groups on three different occasions and used three different words to describe the New Testament believer's relationship to the Old Testament Law:

Ephesians 2: 14-15: For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by ABOLISHING in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

abolishing: Strong’s Concordance word #2673 – destroy, put an end to, cause to cease.

Romans 7: 5-6: For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been RELEASED from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

released: Strong’s Concordance word #575 – the separation of one thing from another

Colossians 2:13-16: When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having CANCELED the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

canceled: Strong’s Concordance word #1833 – blot out, expunge, rub off (as an ointment is rubbed off flesh)

I think Paul made this issue pretty clear. Anything that has been rubbed off me, separated from me, and destroyed is no longer relevant to me.

Major B has it right when he says: "Of the ten commandments, we find nine of them reiterated in one form or another in the NT. That is not the case with the Sabbath. In general, it seems that the prescriptions and proscriptions from the OT that are REPEATED in the NT are still in effect."

 

[Hope of Glory]

Just because we are not bound to observe the Sabbath, does not change the fact that the Sabbath is the Sabbath; it's the seventh day. This is true in at least 160 different languages/cultures.

I could care less what your business calendar says, just as I don't care what Webster's says, when I look at the Greek language.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by RayMarshall19:
WHAT DOES YOUR BUSINESS CALENDAR HAVE TO DO WITH SCRIPTURE?

Show me where in scripture it says that the days of the week today correspond to the seven days of creation accordingly. There is no such scripture. We as a human civilization have not been observing the seven day week consistently since the days of Adam, or even Moses. That's historical fact.

 

[RayMarshall19]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RayMarshall19:
WHAT DOES YOUR BUSINESS CALENDAR HAVE TO DO WITH SCRIPTURE?

Show me where in scripture it says that the days of the week today correspond to the seven days of creation accordingly. There is no such scripture. We as a human civilization have not been observing the seven day week consistently since the days of Adam, or even Moses. That's historical fact. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't need to show evidence because I didn't make a claim that needs to be supported. You did. Can you provide evidence to support your claim?

 

[EdSutton]

After a very belated 'tomorrow' I id mkae it back, finally to this. I previously wrote:
""But I think a problem arises when we try to read into Scripture, as opposed to reading FROM Scripture. And that is part of what is going on here. It is not done, IMO, deliberately, but comes from the 'canonized rhetoric' that gets tossed around too often.
For whatever reason, we tend to suggest that the 'Big Ten' i.e., what is called the 'Moral Law' is the most important, and that somehow it is This is a classic case. What we may think, even while reading, that Scripture says, is not necessarily what Scripture IS saying. Here goes: See for yourself!

genesis12 described it this way:
"Not everyone agrees that the Ten Commandments should be followed per se. They are contained in the two commandments described by Jesus: Love God, and your neighbor as yourself."
straightandnarrow, this way:
"True, but since Christ said that all the Commandments were summed up in Love God and love your neighbor, that means..."

I submit that there is exactly one sentence out of three that I quoted that is accurate, and that is the first by gen12. And I happen to be one of those gen12 speaks of.

The actual words of Jesus from Matt.22, in answer to the question of the Scribe (lawyer) as to the most important law was:
" 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”"
Mark 12:28-31 says sustantially the same thing, but does not say, "On these... hang...the prophets." It however does add: "There is no other commandment greater than these. ""
And I promised some exegesis. I said before that we are guilty of spouting cnaonized rhetoric. I stand by that, and this IS a great example of what I mean. Whatever these verses may mean, what is NOT said is that the Ten Commandments are either 'summed up', or 'contained' in the two 'commandments' cited here. These are NOT summary statements, per se, and nowhere does Jesus say they are, I do not think. The closest is Paul's declaration in Romans 13:9, where a difference is made between 'commandment' and 'saying' or 'rule', as some other versions render it, and that is the part about the neighbor'. What is the context in which this was stated? There was a three pronged attack on Jesus' words, by the Herodians, the Scribes, and the Pharisees, following a just completed assault on His authority by the chief priests, scribes, and elders of the people. This is found starting in Matt. 21:23 (Mk.12:27) HIs refusal to answer their 'trick question' of where His authority was from, but rather saying He would answer if they answered Him is te opening salvo, here. They wouldn't; He didn't and went right on teaching, now by parable. They got the point, and sent in the second team to trap Him- certain Pharisees and the Herodians. Different question; same result. The third string- the Saducees, fared no better in their attempted trap. Finally we come to the Pharisees and the best Scribe they have. If anybody can catch Jesus, it's going to be him. That brings us to where we are, and the question. What is the first and greatest commandment? They Knew! A lawyer had already told Jesus what he thought this was and Jesus had agreed with him as to the answer he gave. This is found in Luke 10:25-29. But it was the wrong answer to the right question, there. Here the question is to Jesus, himself. What is the 'first' commandment in the law? Jesus answered with a portion of the 'Shamawh' found in Deut. 6:4-6. This is not a 'summary', rather it is a direct quotation out of the ceremonial or religious Law that we have spoken of elsewhere. He announces that this is "the first and great Commandment". But He doesn't stop with this, but continues with "The second, like unto it, is 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself!'" Again, this is a direct quote from the Law- the civil or 'family' Law. This is found in Lev. 19:18b. So far; so good. I would guess that all of us are on the same page, at this point. Now comes the kicker, both then and now! He still is not done, for He says, "THERE IS NTHER COMMANDMENT GREATER THAN THESE." (Mk.12:31b) Did you get that? Not even the 'Ten Commandments' are 'greater' than these two He has just cited. Jesus knew this; the Pharisees knew this. (I'd suggest the ones that wants the 'Ten Commandments' displayed don't know this, but I'm not trying to pick another fight with anyone, at his time.) This was what shut them up, and they were TRYING to trip Jesus up! It didn't work. But He is STILL not through, for He says, "ON THESE TWO HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS." Did you get that? 'The Law and the prophets' is a collective term for the Scriptures, at least the OT. And ALL the OT Scripture hangs on these two citings- one from the Civil Law, and one from the Ceremonial Law. The Moral Law hangs from the twin pegs of, and is based on the civil and ceremonial law, not the other way around as most of us have heard most, if not all, of our lives. It is once again past my bedtime- (Who do I look like, Joe Paterno???) and I will continue with our response to the Law at a later time. Well, some of us anyway. It never even applied to me in the first place- the Mosaic Law, that is. I'm sure if I hadn't already stirred up a hornet's nest, I have just done so. Not to worry! I happen to be immune to the stings of this nest. Not all, mind you, but all from this variety of hornets. Till later. In His grace,Ed

 

[menageriekeeper]

Interesting theory Ed. Others better educated than I will have to debate these ideas. I only ask that in your next installment that you please split your posts into paragraphs. Those of us who are dyslexic have a hard time reading long unbroken passages.


More back on my original topic. A thread in the History Forum was the source of this one.

Who decided that it was okay to burn/hang/otherwise execute witches and how is it that we don't do it today? Was/Is being a witch a moral issue? Was it ever? Which part of OT law was the execution of witches contained in?

 

[EdSutton]

mk wrote:
"Who decided that it was okay to burn/hang/otherwise execute witches and how is it that we don't do it today? Was/Is being a witch a moral issue? Was it ever? Which part of OT law was the execution of witches contained in?"

Don't know all. Ony know why we don't execute witches today.

Salem gave witch trials a bad name.

Ed