Who Did Jesus Come To Save?

[PastorGreg]

Bob,

Jeremiah 29:13, in context, is speaking of the Jews at the end of the Babylonian captivity. James 4:8 is written to believers. Neither has anything to do with unbelievers looking for God. The Bible clearly teaches that anyone who wants to, can be saved. It's just that none of us want to until God draws us. Romans 3:11, "There is none that seeketh after God." John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the father which hath sent me draw him."

[ November 19, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: PastorGreg ]

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Originally posted by PastorGreg:
The Bible clearly teaches that anyone who wants to, can be saved. It's just that none of us want to until God draws us.

I do not disagree with this statement. My disagreement comes when one asserts that not all men are drawn. I believe the Bible teaches that every man will, at some point in their life, have salvation made available to them.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (KJV)

Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. (KJV)

Romans 3:11, "There is none that seeketh after God." John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the father which hath sent me draw him."

I've stated before, and tried to convey this in my prior posts, that there is a balance between the two that we do not understand. His ways are not our ways; His thoughts are not our thoughts. We can't understand God through our human experiences.

The balance to John 6:44 would be Matthew 11:28:
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (KJV)

Jesus wouldn't give this invitation to all if all didn't have the opportunity to come.

The balance to Romans 3:11 would be Matthew 6:33:
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (KJV)

Again, Jesus wouldn't command an impossible task.

 

[Daniel David]

Bob, let me explain the bridge thing.

Calvinist - God extends the bridge all the way across to save his elect (number known only to him, but still a minority). He actually will save all of his elect.

Arminianism - God extends the bridge halfway. Christ only provided the basis for salvation, but guaranteed it for no one in particular. If you say it is particular, that is the same as the calvinist, who believe in particular redemption.

I was not implying that you or anyone else here believes that you must "complete the bridge" so to speak to be saved.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Pastor_Bob:
1. I do not disagree with this statement. My disagreement comes when one asserts that not all men are drawn.

2. I believe the Bible teaches that every man will, at some point in their life, have salvation made available to them.

3. I've stated before, and tried to convey this in my prior posts, that there is a balance between the two that we do not understand.

4. The balance to John 6:44 would be Matthew 11:28: "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (KJV)

5. Jesus wouldn't give this invitation to all if all didn't have the opportunity to come.

6. The balance to Romans 3:11 would be Matthew 6:33:"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (KJV)

7. Again, Jesus wouldn't command an impossible task.

Pastor Bob, I am going to try and accurately answer each concern/statement.

1. All me deal with the general call (what Romans 1 is about).

2. I used to think this also. A missionary asked me, "What about those who never know of the gospel?". Romans 10 teaches us that one must believe the gospel.

3. I don't think balance is the word you are looking for. Each verse loses the force of what it is saying by making it in submission to another verse. Each text has absolute, binding authority. I will explain later.

4. I can preach to 1,000 people to come unto Jesus if you are weary. The problem with the individual though is that he doesn't really know he is weary and heavy laden unless Christ reveals that.

5. Not so, the invitation is universal in scope. All who want to may come. Again, no one on their own ever wants to come. This has nothing to do with ability to come. No one wants to come. It is their nature to be at enmity with God.

6. There is no balance here. In Romans 3, Pauls quote David by saying that none will every seek the Lord.

Christ is telling people to put the Lordship of Christ in their life. He is addressing citizens of his kingdom. I don't think this is an evangelistic text.

7. I don't know about this one. God did command the Jews to perfectly keep the law, fully knowing that they couldn't do it.

These are just some thoughts. Right now, I actually favor the unlimited atonement view, but definitely see the merits of particular redemption.

 

[Johnv]

John 3:16 states that Jesus came to save all who believe in him.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
1. All me deal with the general call (what Romans 1 is about).

2. I used to think this also. A missionary asked me, "What about those who never know of the gospel?". Romans 10 teaches us that one must believe the gospel.

3. I don't think balance is the word you are looking for. Each verse loses the force of what it is saying by making it in submission to another verse. Each text has absolute, binding authority. I will explain later.

4. I can preach to 1,000 people to come unto Jesus if you are weary. The problem with the individual though is that he doesn't really know he is weary and heavy laden unless Christ reveals that.

5. Not so, the invitation is universal in scope. All who want to may come. Again, no one on their own ever wants to come. This has nothing to do with ability to come. No one wants to come. It is their nature to be at enmity with God.

6. There is no balance here. In Romans 3, Pauls quote David by saying that none will every seek the Lord.

Christ is telling people to put the Lordship of Christ in their life. He is addressing citizens of his kingdom. I don't think this is an evangelistic text.

1. You'll have to provide Scriptures that differentiate between the "general call" and " the call." It is my opinion that such a belief undermines the character of God; His justice, His love, and His mercy.

2. I believe Romans 1 answers the question of "What about those who never know of the gospel?" I agree that Romans 10 teaches that one must believe the gospel to be saved, but I also believe verse 18, "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (KJV) I still submit that every man has an opportunity to trust Christ.

3. The answer is usually found somewhere between the extremes.

4. But God has "chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Cor 1:21
The truth communicated in preaching, along with the convicting agency of the Holy Spirit is sufficient to make this need apparent. Again, I believe that all men are made aware of thier need of a Savior.

5. I can't disagree but that is really not the point. The point is, I believe all men are given the invitation to come to Jesus. I do not believe gives some the ability to "want to," and not others.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come . And let him that heareth say, Come . And let him that is athirst come . And whosoever will , let him take the water of life freely. (KJV)

6. I believe that man's nature rebels against God and does not naturally seek Him. But, when he is visited by the "grace of God that bringeth salvation" that is promised to appear to all men, this same man has a choice to accept Christ or reject Him. If they reject Him, their "foolish heart" will be darkened. Rom 1:21

 

[TomVols]

Spurgeon was right: we don't need to reconcile free will and God's electing sovereignty because they aren't at odds. Both sides are true. To fail to believe in one or the other is to fail to believe God's Word. Salvation is of God, not of us.

 

[TomVols]

Sorry Mark. Syllogisms don't defeat God's Word.

Again, we have a clear statement that Jesus' came to some people who did not receive Him. But Calvinism tells us He only came to save those who would actually receive Him.

That quote says "he came to them.." not "he came to save them." Besides, you sound an awful lot like a universalist and that one must not receive Christ in order to be saved. I hope that's not what you're saying, but it sure sounds like it is.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Transfering this to the Calvinism forum since it is obviously of that ilk. That's why we HAVE that forum!

Keep on posting.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Jesus said,

"If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Irrefutable syllogism:

a. Jesus came to save the world.

b. Some of the world will not believe on Him - which is to say they will reject Him - and therefore will not be saved.

c. Ergo, some who Jesus came to save will not be saved and the whole idea that Jesus came to save a pre-selected group of people falls flat on it's face.

John said,

"He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

Again, we have a clear statement that Jesus' came to some people who did not receive Him. But Calvinism tells us He only came to save those who would actually receive Him.

So much for Calvinism.

Mark Osgatharp

I am no Calvinist, but, considering what you said from a to c, all I can say is what an abject, pitiful failure your god is, and if you give me the argument that Arminianism usually gives, that God decided to honor man by allowing him free choice, what mindlessness that is then, that a holy God should now honor a vile, unholy, despicable, dirty, rotten sinner's twisted sense of choices.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Johnv:
John 3:16 states that Jesus came to save all who believe in him.

True. And John 12:47-48 states that Jesus came to save all who will not believe on Him, putting the onus squarely on them for rejecting Him, not on Himself or on the Father for not choosing them. Let's read it again:

If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by TomVols:
That quote says "he came to them.." not "he came to save them."

Mr. Vols,

To start with, when the Scripture says that the Savior "came unto his own" I think it a fair inference that the purpose for which He came to them was to save them - especially so since we have His own words that He would have gathered them under His wing as a hen gathers her chicks, but they would not.

However, I notice that you fail to address the passage that explicitly does say He came to save those who rejected Him. I quote it again:

Originally posted by Jesus circa 32 A.D.
If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You also said,

Besides, you sound an awful lot like a universalist and that one must not receive Christ in order to be saved. I hope that's not what you're saying, but it sure sounds like it is.

I wish you would please quote the words that I said that sounded like I am a universalist or that men must not receive Christ in order to be saved. I said the exact opposite. I said that the reason men are not saved is because the reject Christ, which is exactly what Christ said. Here is what I said with emphasis added to expose the dishonesty of your charge that I sound like a universalist:

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp
Jesus said,

"If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Irrefutable syllogism:

a. Jesus came to save the world.

b. Some of the world will not believe on Him - which is to say they will reject Him - and therefore will not be saved.

c. Ergo, some who Jesus came to save will not be saved and the whole idea that Jesus came to save a pre-selected group of people falls flat on it's face.

Now, will you please desist from your baseless slanders and address what Jesus actually said in the text.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Transfering this to the Calvinism forum since it is obviously of that ilk. That's why we HAVE that forum!

Keep on posting.

This is what threw me off, Doc, and sent you all those PM's. I thought we had another Calvinism forum besides this. You got me there.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

IMO, here is perhaps the strongest passage that once-and-for-all puts the doctrine of Limited Atonement to rest.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (KJV)

We know what Jesus was referring to in this passage. Every single man, woman, boy, and girl had the opportunity to look upon the brazen serpent that Moses lifted up in obedience to God. No one was exempt; no one was "elected" or "predestined" to look. Some chose to do it God's way; some chose to try it their own way. Salvation is no different.

Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me ." (KJV)

Even though man's nature is totally depraved, God's justice requires that He gives equal opportunity to all men to be saved. He will, at some point in a person's life, draw them to Himself. It is each one's individual responsibility to respond to that drawing.

 

[Kiffin]

Limited Atonement to rest.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (KJV)

We know what Jesus was referring to in this passage. Every single man, woman, boy, and girl had the opportunity to look upon the brazen serpent that Moses lifted up in obedience to God. No one was exempt; no one was "elected" or "predestined" to look. Some chose to do it God's way; some chose to try it their own way. Salvation is no different.

Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me ." (KJV)

Even though man's nature is totally depraved, God's justice requires that He gives equal opportunity to all men to be saved. He will, at some point in a person's life, draw them to Himself. It is each one's individual responsibility to respond to that drawing.

Yet, Pastor Bob, Millions have died without ever hearing the name of Jesus. "all men " refers to all races and nations of people. God is under no obligation to save anyone but out of His grace He saves some.

 

[pinoybaptist]

How about Mark Osgatharp addressing these scriptures and proving that there are NO elect, NO such thing as election in the Bible, and that God sent His Son to die on the cross for unknown sinners.

Ro 9:11 -
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Ro 11:5 -
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Ro 11:7 -
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Ro 11:28 -
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

1Th 1:4 -
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2Pe 1:10 -
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

.

Isa 65:9 -
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Isa 65:22 -
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Mt 24:22 -
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mt 24:24 -
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mt 24:31 -
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mr 13:20 -
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mr 13:22 -
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mr 13:27 -
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Lu 18:7 -
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Ro 8:33 -
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 -
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


2Ti 2:10 -
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Tit 1:1 -
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1Pe 1:2 -
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


2Jo 1:1 -
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2Jo 1:13 -
The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.


Eph 1:4 -
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Th 2:13 -
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Ti 2:4 -
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.


1Pe 2:9 -
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Re 17:14 -
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Eph 1:5 -
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 -
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ro 8:29 -
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ro 8:30 -
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Daniel David]

Job 42:2
I know that You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

Since syllogisms are for this thread, I just want to point out the obvious, clear teaching of the word of God.

1. God can do everything.
2. No one can stop God.
3. God will accomplish all that he purposes to do.
4. People go to hell.
5. God did NOT purpose to save every individual, even though it was legitimately offered.
6. The purpose of Christ was to save a specific group.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

pinoybaptist,

I never said the Bible doesn't teach election. I do say it does not teach unconditional election.

Now how about addressing the passage from John 12 and give me a grammatical exegesis that proves it does not teach that Jesus came to save those who will ultimately reject Him.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
pinoybaptist,

I never said the Bible doesn't teach election. I do say it does not teach unconditional election.

Now how about addressing the passage from John 12 and give me a grammatical exegesis that proves it does not teach that Jesus came to save those who will ultimately reject Him.

Mark Osgatharp

No, thank you. I will not violate the precepts and rules of scripture study which God gave and that is to compare Scripture with Scripture. Here is what the Holy Spirit said in Isaiah 28:9-13 -

Isaiah 28:9-13
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine ? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken

Your insistence on discussing scriptures and doctrine within the boundaries of sillogism follows earthly wisdom and is subtle and seeks to prove only your interpretation against what Scripture clearly teaches about Unconditional Election.

 

[Yelsew]

PinoyBaptist,
Here is a comparison of scripture that is trustworthy! In both cases it is Jesus THE SAVIOR, speaking. You will agree that there is no other who can save will you not? If Jesus is the ONLY savior, then His words are to be believed, and he says,

[John 3:14] as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up
[John 3:15] so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.
[John 3:16] For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
[John 3:17] For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved.
[John 3:18] No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son.
[John 3:19] And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil.
[John 3:20] And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up;
[John 3:21] but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God.'

Jesus is consistent in His message for he also said,

[John 12:44] Jesus declared publicly: Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in the one who sent me,
[John 12:45] and whoever sees me, sees the one who sent me.
[John 12:46] I have come into the world as light, to prevent anyone who believes in me from staying in the dark any more.
[John 12:47] If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall judge such a person, since I have come not to judge the world, but to save the world:
[John 12:48] anyone who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.
[John 12:49,50] For I have not spoken of my own accord; but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and what to speak, and I know that his commands mean eternal life. And therefore what the Father has told me is what I speak.

Peter confirms Jesus' words by declaring in 1 Peter 1:13-25, that man's regeneration come from believing the Word of God, and does not precede the hearing of the word.