Who do we pray for?

[Gina B]

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Was this only dealing with the disciples? Why did He say "I pray not for the world"?
He continues with: JN 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Still praying for the saved.
So is he only praying that the elect will believe in him, or the unsaved?
Gina

 

[Rev. G]

The topic title is "Who do we pray for?" So, I'll answer that question. We pray for all those in Scripture whom we are commanded to pray (those in authority, as found in 1 Tim. 1, etc.). I suppose the real question, though, is who Christ is praying for in this passage. Right? Well, to be honest, I've about had all I can take of the C/A running debates since we get no where - but the Scriptures point to Christ (and the Spirit - Rom. 8:26-28) making intercession for His people. Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25. He also prays for "those who will believe" (Jn. 17:20). These are ones that have been given to Him by the Father (17:24).

Thoughtful question!

Rev. G

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Chrysoprasus:
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Was this only dealing with the disciples? Why did He say "I pray not for the world"?
He continues with: JN 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Still praying for the saved.
So is he only praying that the elect will believe in him, or the unsaved?
Gina

The elect are those that chose to believe, that is not in question whither you bite the apple on the top or the bottom.

So if he is praying that the elect will believe, does that mean that some of them won't? Irrestible grace is not enough, the son has to pray for those depraved rascals huh????

He is praying that they will believe on him through the word preached. If Christ is praying for them, does that tell you that they are saved through the word preached or through some process(election) that happeed befoe they were born.

Perhaps you can tell me why Christ is praying that they will believe when they have already been zapped wth irresistible grace. What's he praying for.

He is not praying for the world, a euphemism for those that have "chosen not to believe"...

[ October 07, 2002, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Chrysoprasus:
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Was this only dealing with the disciples? Why did He say "I pray not for the world"?
He continues with: JN 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Still praying for the saved.
So is he only praying that the elect will believe in him, or the unsaved?
Gina

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

JN 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

It seems to me that these are two separate groups: those whom have been given and those who will believe. Hence, I would maintain that the first group are those who already believe, possibly the disciples. The second group are those who will believe after His death.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chappie:
The elect are those that chose to believe

So I will put to you the same question I put to Ray many times that he has never answered: Where in Scripture do you see this teaching?

 

[Frogman]

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that they faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Lk. 22.31-32

Prayer guides us into humility and submission to the Will of God; it does not change the mind, purpose and will of God.

It was purposed for Peter to deny Christ, Christ prayed his faith fail not, not saving faith, but faith to continue in so much that he might learn where his strength comes from and thus be able to strengthen the brethren.

Christ also prayed the removal of the cup recorded in three Gospels specifically and referenced in John 18.1-11 (see vs 11:"...the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?").

John 11.41-42 and Heb. 5.7-8.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I will put to you the same question I put to Ray many times that he has never answered: Where in Scripture do you see this teaching?

Luke 7:50
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
KJV

Luke 18:42
42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
KJV

Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Luke 7:50
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
KJV

Luke 18:42
42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
KJV

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
KJV

Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9-11
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Verse 9
"That if" places the passage within the context of options. {If you do, If you don't,} "Thou", points to the person and places it within their area of responsibility. Absent is the phrase, "That if God". "Shall confess the lord Jesus. You must confess. A person that is irresistibly graced does nothing save what he i graced to do. No if's, ands, or but's about it.

"and shalt believe in thine heart" Shalt do what? Believe in thine heart. Whose heart, thine heart. Thou shalt be saved.

Joshua 24:15
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Command to choose, a choice made...

If i have erred in my intrepretation of these particular passages, please show me. Please be specific.
After that, showme whatchu got.....

[ October 07, 2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Frogman:
"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that they faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Lk. 22.31-32

Prayer guides us into humility and submission to the Will of God; it does not change the mind, purpose and will of God.

What about when Moses changed the mind of God in the destruction of the Hebrew people?

Is it possible that I need only to pray for something to receive it, or will God give me that thing whether I pray or not?

If we ask, we will receive. If we ask not, will we receive not?

 

[Frogman]

What about when Moses changed the mind of God in the destruction of the Hebrew people?

Moses was but a type of Christ. He was the mediator between God and the people of Israel. (Gal. 3.19) He was a mediator.

Moses interceded for the people; God offered to Moses: "Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation." Ex. 32.10

Moses did not change the mind of God; this is the promise God made to Abraham; Moses was humbled to pray for the people, showing the nature of a servant; otherwise Moses would have let him alone and the nation of Israel would be called after his name; (This was not ever the Everlasting Covenant).

(Lk. 13.6-9) Shows the mind of God is not changed. The Covenant is made between Father and Son. Father--Lord; Son--dresser of the vineyard; fig tree--Israel.

God's mind is not changed by prayer; if so the Love which He loved His only begotten Son could possibly have been swayed by the prayer of Christ; but Christ prayed always in the Will of God; we are instructed to do likewise; this humbles us, makes us submissive to His will and not ours.

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
KJV

True:"...and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:...

vs. 9: "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

vs. 10: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

vss. 11-13; 14-18

Also Phillippians 2.13: "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Rom. 2.4 (and this before the Roman Road of ch. 10) where we also find:

"But they have not obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom. 10.17

And much more.

May God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.

Bro. Dallas

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Moses did not change the mind of God; this is the promise God made to Abraham; Moses was humbled to pray for the people, showing the nature of a servant; otherwise Moses would have let him alone and the nation of Israel would be called after his name; (This was not ever the Everlasting Covenant).

Had the nation gone through Moses, it still would have gone through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Otherwise, why would God make such an empty threat? Does that not go outside of his nature?

James 4:3
When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

So apparently there are things we must ask in the right motive for us to receive the blessing. Hence, there is something that God is waiting to give, but will not until asked for with the right heart, correct?

 

[Frogman]

Had the nation gone through Moses, it still would have gone through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Otherwise, why would God make such an empty threat? Does that not go outside of his nature?

God told Moses he would destroy the Nation of Israel, and make one of him, this would have changed the promise to Abraham.

So apparently there are things we must ask in the right motive for us to receive the blessing. Hence, there is something that God is waiting to give, but will not until asked for with the right heart, correct?

This is what I said, we do not change the will and purpose of God through prayer, but become humble and submissive to His will and purpose through prayer.

Two farmers in the same area pray, one for rain on his crops, another for no wet weather in order he may put up his hay crop, both are saved, who does God answer?

He answers to "Thy will be done."
God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

[ October 07, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Luke 7:50 ... Luke 18:42 ... Ephesians 2:8 [omitted long list of verses] ... If i have erred in my intrepretation of these particular passages, please show me. Please be specific.
After that, showme whatchu got......

Why did you post these verses??? None of them address the issue I asked about. You said they were elected because they believed. I asked for verses that support that. These verses are irrelevant.

I am looking for verses that show election to be the result of belief. Do you have any verses that support that or are you importing your own understanding into Scripture?

 

[KenH]

(John 10:26 NKJV) "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Question: Why did these people whom Jesus addressed not believe?

Wrong Answer: They were not of His sheep because they did not believe.

Correct Answer: They were not of His sheep.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Frogman:
God told Moses he would destroy the Nation of Israel, and make one of him, this would have changed the promise to Abraham.

He said, ""Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation." Ex. 32.10"

The new nation would STILL have gone through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob since Moses was of their linage.

You never answered the question as to why God would make such an empty threat if He was never going to fulfill it. What does that say about God?

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Why did you post these verses??? None of them address the issue I asked about. You said they were elected because they believed. I asked for verses that support that. These verses are irrelevant.

I am looking for verses that show election to be the result of belief. Do you have any verses that support that or are you importing your own understanding into Scripture?

Believe = Saved.
Saved = Elect.

What part of Romans 10:9 do you not understand. What type of blindness am i dealing with. Obviously if you cannot see that it places faith in christ as the resonsibility of the believer, then you have no idea what it means. Perhaps you can enlighten me of your perception of the passage.

 

[KenH]

The issue is not that fact that all Christians repent and believe. The issue is why one person repents and believes and another person doesn't.

Calvinists say that it is totally the work of God. You say it is the work of man to some extent.

That is the issue.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
You say it is the work of man to some extent.
7[/QB]

No - you say we say it is the work of man. Choosing Christ isn't a work in our theological paradigm.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Choosing Christ isn't a work in our theological paradigm.

Then, Scott, you deny the logic and inevitable conclusion of your own unBiblical soteriology. You know what they say - "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck."

Don't you claim that man must repent and believe while spiritually dead, separated from God? Don't you claim that man's repenting and believing then create new life in himself and bring him near to God?

Don't you see, Scott, that your soteriology makes man into his own savior and denies the completeness of the work of Christ as He lived on this earth and died on the cross, for you are teaching that man's action is necessary to complete what Christ Jesus did?

God is the Savior of man. No man can contribute the least bit to his own salvation for man cannot be his own savior.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Then, Scott, you deny the logic and inevitable conclusion of your own unBiblical soteriology. You know what they say - "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck."

And I would maintain that my theology is quite Biblical - more Biblical than Calvinism. This is why I post here on this board.

Don't you claim that man must repent and believe while spiritually dead, separated from God?

Nope. Look at the Arminian position a little bit more carefully before making usch generalizations.

Don't you claim that man's repenting and believing then create new life in himself and bring him near to God?

Absolutely not. It is impossible for man to create new life in himself. This is not what Arminians believe. Why create the straw man here?

Don't you see, Scott, that your soteriology makes man into his own savior and denies the completeness of the work of Christ as He lived on this earth and died on the cross, for you are teaching that man's action is necessary to complete what Christ Jesus did?

It's not my soteriology. It's your straw man that makes man his own saviour.

God is the Savior of man. No man can contribute the least bit to his own salvation for man cannot be his own savior.

God is the Saviour of man. Agree.
Man cannot be his own Saviour. Agree.

Would you mind reading a bit more carefully to understand the Arminian position before spouting off these things? I don't know if you're just merely citing the party line here or if you really don't understand true Arminianism.

SEC

 

[ForumChaplain]

Accountability, this is where calvinism stumbles well within the realm of unbiblical, man made doctrine.

Ability to do, but did not; creates accountability. Man is born so totally depraved, he never had a chance.

Choice, another area where Calvinism fails miserably. They sware that God did something that god never said he did. They sware that he did it without criteria, which is a possibility that God has not illustrated nor demonstrated.

Without a reconcilliation of these two things, calvinism is a strawman. Nothing that you claim is worthy of discussion unless you can reconcile these two concepts.

Now they want to add credence to their position by saying that it glorifys God. It does not. They say, salvation is all of God, we say yes it is. The plan of salvation is all of God. The fact that he tells us that we must accept his love, this wrecks his whole plan. God cannot create his kingdom unless he is a dictator. But they do not want to call him a dictator, yet what they describe through their doctrine is a paranoid dictator.

This is going to make some peoble angry, i love all my christiam brothers and sisters, but a spade is a spade.

I have not misrepressented Calvinism, i may have misrepresrnted your brand of calvinism. But every single fact that I expounded on, i got from a calvinist.

[ October 07, 2002, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]