Who do we pray for?

[Frogman]

You never answered the question as to why God would make such an empty threat if He was never going to fulfill it. What does that say about God?

The same reason he told Abraham to offer his only son in sacrifice, but never intended it to happen.

To humble the man and exalt God.

The so called "empty" threat of God to Moses was made in order that Moses would be humbled. As a servant should be humbled. Yes, God knew the reaction and prayer of Moses. Still he issued this "threat."

God's intentions were, are and have always been to bring forth the nation of Israel from the seed of Abraham. Moses prayed but did not remind God of this, nor did he change the will and purpose of God. The entire incident was provided and designed to humble Moses and teach us humility. That we would pray according to His will and not our own.

The everlasting covenant has ever always been before God.

"Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant."

Ez. 16.60-61

God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Frogman:
God's intentions were, are and have always been to bring forth the nation of Israel from the seed of Abraham. Moses prayed but did not remind God of this, nor did he change the will and purpose of God. The entire incident was provided and designed to humble Moses and teach us humility. That we would pray according to His will and not our own.

And what you miss is very simple. If God had killed everyone but Moses, and God had created a nation using MOses' linage, the nation would STILL be from Abraham's, Isaac's, and Jacob's linage, since Moses was of their linage. Thus, your only argument stating that God could not have destroyed the Israelites based on this fails.

The everlasting covenant has ever always been before God.

And would have been fulfilled even through Moses.

 

[Frogman]

John 10.14: "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."

1. Jesus knows his own.
2. They know him.

What prevents everyone from believing?

John 10.27: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

1. His sheep hear his voice
2. The voice of the calling of God to faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit.
3. He knows them
4. They follow Him

If we are dead in trespasses and sin; then we are similar to Lazarus in Ch. 11; in the grave for four days; to the point of stinking, we (just like Lazarus) cannot "come forth" until we hear His voice. Like it or not, that is biblical.

God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

If Jesus tells Christians to 'Go into all the world, and preach the Gosepl to every creature . . . ' and He does, then I don't think we are misguided if/or when we pray for every human being. Clearly, God was telling us the extent to which His atonment covers, if people only believe in Him as Savior.

Unlimited Atonement: Jesus said, 'Preach the Gospel to every creature.' [Mark 16:15-16] Why preach to everyone if His blood only potentially covers some? Good question, right?

 

[EPH 1:4]

Ray, which christians did Jesus tell "Go ye"..the apostles or us? If you say "us", I want to see you take up the serpent and drink any deadly thing.Mark 16:18

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Believe = Saved.
Saved = Elect.

This is completely wrong. It is no wonder that you cannot see the point I am making. You have equated things that cannot be equated from Scripture -- which is why you didn't use Scripture to equate them. When you lack Scripture you appeal to word associations that cannot stand up in Scripture. Consider the following:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 ... God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation . -- Notice how the election is distinct from salvation and prior to salvation ("chosen you for salvation"). Therefore it cannot be the same as salvation.

1 Thess 1:4-10 clearly argue that God's choice preceded salvation (he chose you, then the gospel came, then you became imitators/turned to God ... ).

Ephesians 1:4 ... He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, -- Since his choice was before the foundation of the world, it is before salvation and before belief. It cannot be the same as something that it preceded by thousands of years.

The fact is that you have made a horrible logical equation that cannot stand the test of Scripture. You say that belief=salvation. Yet Scripture never says that. Scripture says that belief leads to salvation. Rom 10:9, the verse you are citing, says that very thing. Why do you feel the liberty to say something else?

I understand Rom 10:9 perfectly well. It does not mention election. I have never denied that faith in Christ is necessary for the believer and that it is commanded of all that will be saved. You should know that if you are reading my posts. I have been a staunch defender of the necessity of conscious faith in Jesus Christ. Yet apparently you are not reading along since you misrepresent my position (yet again).

I am not blind; I do not deny the truth of any verse that you have listed. They simply did not address the point. I asked you for scriptural citations that showed election to be the result of faith. Come to think of it, your own explanation doesn't even do that and you were bound by Scripture. The most your little equation shows is that election=belief, not that election is the result of belief.

Your post here is slipping again into the type of demeanor that we have talked about earlier. Clean it up or cease to post. Your call.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Unlimited Atonement: Jesus said, 'Preach the Gospel to every creature.' [Mark 16:15-16] Why preach to everyone if His blood only potentially covers some? Good question, right?

No, not really ... actually not even close. We preach to everyone because we are commanded to and becuase we do not know who will be saved and who will not. His blood potentially covers everyone. It only actually covers the ones chosen in him before the foundation of the world.

 

[Frogman]

Ray, which christians did Jesus tell "Go ye"..the apostles or us? If you say "us", I want to see you take up the serpent and drink any deadly thing.Mark 16:18

Jesus commissioned the church; while not every individual will feel a calling to actually do this on an international scale; every christian is in effect a "missionary."

The scripture at Mk. 16.18 is deeper than this. It speaks of the empowerment of those answering and following the call of God into ministry will not be harmed during the performance of that ministry. (Acts 28.1-6) is an example of being inside this will and escaping harm by the Providence of God.

No, not really ... actually not even close. We preach to everyone because we are commanded to and becuase we do not know who will be saved and who will not. His blood potentially covers everyone. It only actually covers the ones chosen in him before the foundation of the world.

Amen.

God bless you in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

[ October 08, 2002, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[Sovereign Grace]

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,.... That is, if a man shall make a good, sincere, and hearty confession to God, before the church and people of God, and before the world, that Christ is his Lord and Saviour, whom he desires to serve, and to be saved by; and this as arising from a comfortable experience of the grace of God in his soul, and from a true faith in Christ in his heart, wherefore it follows,

and shall believe in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved; for this article of Christ's resurrection includes the several other articles of faith: it supposes his death, and that supposes his life, and the obedience of it; and his life implies his being here on earth, and that his coming down from heaven to do the will of his Father; and this is the rather mentioned, which is here ascribed to God the Father, though not to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, because that Christ is risen again for our justification, with which true faith is principally concerned; for such a faith is intended, not which lies in a mere assent to the truth of this, or any other article of the Christian religion; but which is concerned with Christ for righteousness, life, and glory; and with such a faith salvation is certainly and inseparably connected. (Dr. John Gill, D.D.)

Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue: (Jn. 12:42)

Hmmm...interesting.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. (1 Jn. 4:15)

SHALL confess...God DOES DWELL...and HE DOES DWELL...in God.

That doesn't seem like a condition at all. "Rightly dividing the word of truth..."

Here we go again with that Arminian "grace."

[ October 08, 2002, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Sovereign Grace ]

 

[Frogman]

And what you miss is very simple. If God had killed everyone but Moses, and God had created a nation using MOses' linage, the nation would STILL be from Abraham's, Isaac's, and Jacob's linage, since Moses was of their linage. Thus, your only argument stating that God could not have destroyed the Israelites based on this fails.

This appears as such on the surface, however, it would have changed the purpose for which Abram was called from the land of Ur; Esau could have easily been the ancestor of the nation, rather than Jacob, and would have changed Moses from leading a nation already formed in Egypt, to the point where Abram stood before God, this would have been showing failure in God to perform His will and purpose after having called and formed the nation through Abram.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Gina B]

Ok, great discussion!
Now, let's pretend that someone in your church who has just learned about Christ and never really read the bible read that passage and asked you the same question.
How do you answer?
You know, it's interesting. I've found that I can argue from here to eternity with those who are read in these matters, but I stammer and get stuck when dealing with a new Christian or an unsaved person asking simple questions.

Why do you think that is? (that's your bonus question, go ahead and answer the first part of this post first. )
Gina

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Christians are to communicate the gospel when a door is opened for them. Jesus told the disciples to preach the gospel to every creature. Look what Paul wrote:

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Col. 1:23)

What are your thoughts on this? Was it indeed preached to EVERY CREATURE under heaven?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Frogman:
This appears as such on the surface, however, it would have changed the purpose for which Abram was called from the land of Ur; Esau could have easily been the ancestor of the nation, rather than Jacob, and would have changed Moses from leading a nation already formed in Egypt, to the point where Abram stood before God, this would have been showing failure in God to perform His will and purpose after having called and formed the nation through Abram.

Wouldn't have gone through Esau since Jacob was in Moses' linage, and in no way shows failure in Abram! Can you quote Scripture that states that the number of people had to have a certain number of people at a certain time? The fact is that God could have destroyed all the people except Moses, and STILL had a nation through Abram.

Bro. Dallas[/QB][/QUOTE]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

You're 'play on words' do not impress we who take Him at His Word. What part of I Timothy 2:4 and 6 don't you understand. Accept what is easily and clearly written; study what is difficult for you to understand. We cannot give up what is so easily understood. We study what seems to be difficult passages. Then we are correct interpreters of His Living Word.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ephesians 1:4,

You have an interesting theology. You select what verses you feel that God is speaking to you through the Biblical writers. Do you discount Hell because it does not appeal to you?

Yes, we are to continue to preach to every creature {person}. St. Mark was not just writing to those people in his generation.

 

[EPH 1:4]

Good luck, Apostle Ray!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
You're 'play on words' do not impress we who take Him at His Word. What part of I Timothy 2:4 and 6 don't you understand. Accept what is easily and clearly written; study what is difficult for you to understand. We cannot give up what is so easily understood. We study what seems to be difficult passages. Then we are correct interpreters of His Living Word.

My play on words?? What are you talking about? I offered no play on words. I understand every part of 1 Tim 2:4 and 6. I don't question any of it. I do resent your implication that I do not take him at his word. My whole theology involves the total acceptance of God's word as the final rule of faith and practice. The difference is not that we don't take him at his word. The difference is how are we to relate certain portions of his word to other portions. You should know that by now.

Now, if you would like to explain what you mean by my "play on words" and how that fits into this discussion, I would be glad to entertain your question and explain it.

 

[Frogman]

Can you quote Scripture that states that the number of people had to have a certain number of people at a certain time?

Gen. 15.13-16.

While the word "nation" is not particularly specified; there is evidence because Abram had no one as heir.

Ex. 1.5-12

Ex. 12.37;40-41;51.

To destroy this multitude and make a nation from Moses would have "changed" the nature of the promise to Abraham in Gen. 15.16:

"But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."

Note: "they shall come hither again:"

This they is the nation already formed during the "sojourn" in Egypt.

No it was not the purpose of God to destroy this people and to build a nation of Moses; nor did Moses change the mind of God.

God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.

Bro. Dallas