Who does God love?

[Skandelon]

The difference could be thought of like this. God is a Father, he has rebellious children.

-Under Calvinism: All are rebellious to the point that none will turn and accept forgiveness unless caused to by God. So God chooses some and causes them to be born again. NOT ALL ARE SAVED.

-Under Non-cal: All are rebellious, but some, when offered free forgiveness, turn and accept it. NOT ALL ARE SAVED.

Under either belief, God has the power to save all, but does not. For cals, it is because he does not choose to turn everyone from their rebellious ways. For non-cals, it is because he values thier free choice more than he values their salvation.

And this is why under Calvinism the lost have a perfect excuse for their unbelief. In non-Calvinism the lost are rebelling in the face of God's love, choice and gracious provision, they have NO excuse.

Also, I wouldn't say He 'values their free choice more than he values their salvation." I'd say He values their salvation through faith, over robotic like determinism.

Think of it like this:
If a parent allows their rebellious 17 year old son go out into the real world to experience the harsh realities of life for himself (even at the risk of his losing his life or causing great pain), does that mean they value his freedom over his life? This is exactly what the Father in the prodigal son story does. Did that father value that boys freedom more than his life? Of course not. The father knew that true relationship would only come through the experience. He valued the relationship and knew keeping the boy would only produce more rebellion and distance. Could he have drugged the boy to make him want to stay home and obey? Sure, but what kind of relationship would that be?

I guess this is one problem I see with the non-cal position. It has determined that free choice is the highest value in the universe

God values a loving relationship and relationship, REAL relationship, necessitates freedom. God's highest value is His Glory displayed through loving relationships.

 

[Skandelon]

which goes against the way many parents interact with their own kids. If my son is running away from me toward certain death in a busy road...and refuses to stop when I plead with him to "repent" (turn around). I'm not going to sit back and "respect his free will". I'm going to go get him and forcibly stop him from destroying himself. That is what Cals believe God does for his elect. Why he does not do it for everyone is one of the great mysteries...and admittedly a point of questioning for Cals.

I meant to address this point too. I think the analogy of the prodigal son better represents the scenario of mankind's relationship to God than does the illustration of a toddler (a baby without a developed 'will of his own' or understanding of danger etc) running toward a busy highway. God is presented in scripture as one with great patience with us, implying he is waiting on US, not on himself. Again, its the Father sitting on the porch waiting for his son to come home again, not a hovering mother over an endangered toddler.

The act of the Father giving the son his inheritance is a PERFECT analogy of FREEDOM. He wouldn't have been able to leave without money to live off of. The choice of the father to willingly GIVE his son his freedom by granting him his inheritance proves that God does indeed value that method over the alternative.

 

[Ed B]

My point with the 'regular christian' label is that not everyone falls under the Cal or Arm label. There are other choices, not just 2

John

Sadly, I think "regular Christians" wouldn't have a clue if they or their Church were calvinistic, arminian, semi-pelagian, or anything between or what any of those terms really mean.

 

[12strings]

I meant to address this point too. I think the analogy of the prodigal son better represents the scenario of mankind's relationship to God than does the illustration of a toddler (a baby without a developed 'will of his own' or understanding of danger etc) running toward a busy highway. God is presented in scripture as one with great patience with us, implying he is waiting on US, not on himself. Again, its the Father sitting on the porch waiting for his son to come home again, not a hovering mother over an endangered toddler.

I understand what you are saying, but I think we sometimes give ourselves too much credit, thinking that we are mature wise people who have a good grasp on the world, and so we know everything we need to make an informed decision. I think, in reality, when relating to God, we are more like helpless a child who may THINK he knows what is best, but usually doesn't. An adult who runs head-long into drugs, or porn, or wealth-seeking may think he is making rational decisions, but he is really making irrational, self-destructive decisions based on his faulty idea that he knows what he is doing and what it will gain him. In the words of skan..."Make sense?" :thumbsup:

It's true that the father waited for his son, but in the 2 parallel parables before that one (Sheep and Coin), the Shepherd and the woman both went out seeking what was lost and bringing it home...so there's also that.

 

[Skandelon]

I understand what you are saying, but I think we sometimes give ourselves too much credit, thinking that we are mature wise people who have a good grasp on the world, and so we know everything we need to make an informed decision. I think, in reality, when relating to God, we are more like helpless a child who may THINK he knows what is best, but usually doesn't. An adult who runs head-long into drugs, or porn, or wealth-seeking may think he is making rational decisions, but he is really making irrational, self-destructive decisions based on his faulty idea that he knows what he is doing and what it will gain him. In the words of skan..."Make sense?" :thumbsup:

Yes, it makes perfect sense!

That is what the pig styes of life are for. They break us. The prodigal wouldn't know the pig stye if not for the father granting him his freedom to squander his wealth, make his own destructive decisions and come to the end of himself. It is actually merciful of God to 'give us over' to our own desires, for in doing so we may be able to catch a glimpse of our greatest need. If we survive, the act of rebellion and the subsequent brokenness it produces, could be the catalyst for the fulfillment of scriptures mandate: "Humble yourselves and you will be exalted."

 

[Forest]

Does God love you?

If He does love you, does that make you special?

Does God create people that He doesnt love?

If so, did he predestinate them to not be loved?

Why would God create you, loving you, and create others that He damns from birth without even a chance?

If God chose to damn me then I wish He would have just sent my spirit to Hell.

Does God love me or not?

John

Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth and scourgest every son whom he receiveth. If we find scripture that says God does not chasten some men, then we must assum that he does not love them. Ps 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men, neither are they plagued (divinly punished) like other men. Jobe 21:9, their houses are safe from fear, neither is the rod of God upon them. God does not damn anyone. All mankind fell into sin after Adam fell. God by his foreknowledge could see that no man would seek after him,Ps 53:2-3, so he choose an elect people before the foundation of the world to redeem back to himself by the offering of Christ upon the cross. The rest of mankind, the natural man, he just left them to their own destruction.

 

[Forest]

yes

Well, certainly not because of me.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life"

I reject double predestination. But even those that do believe it, I don't think they would say it's outside of their sin. In other words the person goes to hell because they are a sinner.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life"

The word "world" in John 3:16 has reference to "believers only" according to Thayer's difinition.

 

[Forest]

You know, it's getting really tiring seeing these posts against the doctrines of grace over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Why not chase another dog?

What better subject can we talk about than the grace of God?

 

[jbh28]

The word "world" in John 3:16 has reference to "believers only" according to Thayer's difinition.

1. Thayer isn't infalible. Let's not act like Catholics and place another person's interpretation to the level of Scripture.
2. There is nothing in the text to limit "world" to only believers. Absolutely nothing.
3. It would make no sense to say "world" is believers only since is says all of the believers of what? the world. It says that God so loved the "world." It says that whoever...whoever does what? believes. whoever believes. All those that believe...out of what? the world. The world is the greater number. The "whosoevers" are the lesser number. The "whosoevers" are the believers.

 

[convicted1]

1. Thayer isn't infalible. Let's not act like Catholics and place another person's interpretation to the level of Scripture.
2. There is nothing in the text to limit "world" to only believers. Absolutely nothing.
3. It would make no sense to say "world" is believers only since is says all of the believers of what? the world. It says that God so loved the "world." It says that whoever...whoever does what? believes. whoever believes. All those that believe...out of what? the world. The world is the greater number. The "whosoevers" are the lesser number. The "whosoevers" are the believers.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


I am going to jump on your bandwagon......until you fall out of favor, and then I'll jump off and join another bandwagon.... LOL

 

[jbh28]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


I am going to jump on your bandwagon......until you fall out of favor, and then I'll jump off and join another bandwagon.... LOL

no problem!

 

[Forest]

1. Thayer isn't infalible. Let's not act like Catholics and place another person's interpretation to the level of Scripture.
2. There is nothing in the text to limit "world" to only believers. Absolutely nothing.
3. It would make no sense to say "world" is believers only since is says all of the believers of what? the world. It says that God so loved the "world." It says that whoever...whoever does what? believes. whoever believes. All those that believe...out of what? the world. The world is the greater number. The "whosoevers" are the lesser number. The "whosoevers" are the believers.

You state that the "whosoevers" are the believers. Is not that what I just said, the whosoevers are those that believeth (present tense) not whosoever will believe. Some of the world does not believe, therefore the world is the world of believers.

 

[psalms109:31]

You state that the "whosoevers" are the believers. Is not that what I just said, the whosoevers are those that believeth (present tense) not whosoever will believe. Some of the world does not believe, therefore the world is the world of believers.

The world is sinners enemies of God, Jesus came to save sinners who I am the worst. The whosoever believes is the Elect. The world is dead sinners, the elect are whosoever believes. He loved the world that He sent His Son, not that the whole world will be saved, but those who the Father has given to His Son will be the whosoever believes will be saved. Me loving my enemies isn't going to save them or me only coming to Christ will.

Matthew 5:
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[Lev. 19:18] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Luke 6:
Love for Enemies
27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

 

[Skandelon]

I am going to jump on your bandwagon......until you fall out of favor, and then I'll jump off and join another bandwagon.... LOL

Despite my differences with jbh28, I will say he provides a good balance to those who tend toward hyperism on this forum. :thumbs:

I do wish he'd would answer the question of the THREAD JUST STARTED....