Who Does The Pope Think That He Is??

Neither Historic Protestanism, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy have ever believed in Soul Sleep.

 

Friends - Mary fits in Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" just as you and I fit into that verse. It is all inclusive.

The only exception is the second person of the Trinity - the Eternal Son of God - the Word - the Lord Jesus Christ! He alone was born differently than any other of the human race's billions who have been born - and who will surely die - unless Jesus returns first for His church in the rapture. All of us had an earthly father. Jesus did not. (Adam and Eve were not born).

If you have a human father - you are a sinner. Mary had a human father - she was a sinner - who needed salvation by grace through faith - just as you and I.

Dan Todd - moderator

 

I stand in quiet respect for you, tragic pizza. Very rare is it to find someone of your Christianity on this part of the board.

 

This is, of course, assuming (errantly) that "Protestants" were here first. The dissciples were Protestants. As were all the people in Thessalonica and Syria and etc. Interesting. What exactly was there to protest? They were the first Christians. That's it. Christians. Not Protestants. And Catholic simply means "universal". So, before you turn into DHK and get lost in some sort of terminology jungle, please understand that Jesus wasn't a Protestant.

 

I see - so the fact that they "pray to have God take vengence on those who dwell on the earth" should be an inconvenient detail that plays no part in the Rev 6 story about "souls under the altar" praying??

I thought "the whole point" was that you pray to the saints In heaven (instead of going directly to God) and they pray directly to God as you should have done -- for you.

A good story - but that is not what we see in Rev 6.

In Rev 6 -

#1. NOBODY prays to the "souls under the altar".

#2. The ONLY thing the souls under the altar ask for - is VENGENCE on those who DWELL ON THE EARTH.

#3. The ONLY results from their praying is that they are told to be quiet because nothing is going to change the plan that is already in place.

Is that the kind of "motivating set of facts" being used to "DEFINE" this idea of communion of saints??

Or is there an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT set of stories that are used - with their own facts - (with all the inconvenient "details" of Rev 6 left out) - when selling this idea to little Catholic children?

I suspect the "details" of Rev 6 are not used much at all in that scenario -

How have you seen this idea presented "as a good thing" to children - IF basing it entirely upon "the facts" of Rev 6. (As you seem to want to do)

Surely you have to admit that an appeal to the "Vengence prayer" of souls under the altar (to whom NO one prays in Rev 6) is a tough way to try to make the RC point here. Especially when you see the "response" those souls are getting and the "change" they were able to effect. (read nill/zero/null).

In Christ,

Bob

 

When you say "like the Bible says" do you mean ...

This might be right. It may be that only the NT church believed it as stated in the above verses. Certainly nobody would speak like that today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. I think we both have to come to grips with the fact that "The Pope is Catholic" so "What the RCC teaches on this pont" is exactly what HE believes. Agreed?

#2. They believe in "communion of saints" which includes the idea of saints here on earth praying to saints in heaven instead of God - and having them pray (in a relay-style-prayer chain to God). The idea is that the saints in heaven are kinder and have more pull with God so - instead of the Bible method of going through the Holy Spirit to get to God (Romans 8) the RCC goes through the dead to get to God. (And by that I mean the "DEAD in Christ" 1Thess 4 of course)

#3. JP II believes that he - like Mary will be all-knowing and all-hearing so that all prayers sent to him at the same time from all around the world - will be heard by him and answered by him in his work as intercessor and mediator between God and living humans "those who dwell on the earth".

So "his" views are a bit easier to define.

As for "our views" of what the people in heaven do - we would need texts for that. Bible texts.

Certainly we see "people in heaven" talking directly with Christ in Matt 17 - Mount of Transfiguration. Wouldn't you agree?

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is, of course, assuming (errantly) that "Protestants" were here first. The dissciples were Protestants. As were all the people in Thessalonica and Syria and etc. Interesting. What exactly was there to protest? They were the first Christians. That's it. Christians. Not Protestants. And Catholic simply means "universal". So, before you turn into DHK and get lost in some sort of terminology jungle, please understand that Jesus wasn't a Protestant. </font>[/QUOTE]Bingo! "Majoring on the Minors" like the condition of the departed makes Satan happy because it - like all too many things in Christianity today - divide us rather than uniting us.

I have to ask, knowing I won't get an answer, why is any of this kind of thing a big deal? Don't say "Because to believe differently isn't Biblical," because ideas on both sides of any theological-nitpick can find reams of Scriptural justification.

The problem is much deeper, more insidious, and ultimately deadly, were it not for the unfathomable mercy of God: we're much happier, we humans, we fallen, fighting than we are healing. Fighting, hating, raging at motes in everyone else's eye feels good.

Someone, please prove me wrong.

 

I was in a hurry when I did my last post, sorry. I shouldve told you all to go read this page, instead (below).
If Roman Catholicism didnt falsely believe in the first place that the Virgin Mary was in heaven, which the Bible says she is NOT... then they wouldnt have this problem of praying to her and thinking she actually answers.

Unfortunately most of the Christian Protestant world has also adopted this false unbiblical teaching that says that when we die we go right to heaven or hell, instead of staying in the grave till the second coming of Christ. And the Protestants are therefore unwittingly aiding and abetting the Roman Catholic deception of conversing with dead saints and the Virgin Mary.

These demonic manifestations and false "miracles" will become more and more frequent as we near the second coming of Christ. Matthew 24:2,4,24 "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you...For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Rv:13:14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rv:16:14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

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In the very beginning of earth’s history, Satan, while in the form of a serpent, told the first lie to Eve. He told her that if she disobeyed the command of God not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, she would “not surely die, ” even though God had expressly warned her that “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die .” (See Genesis 3: 4; 2: 17). Satan treacherously assured her (another monstrous lie) that upon eating the fruit “your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods , knowing good and evil.” (Gen. 3: 5). Friends, are we still believing the devil today? The Bible is quite clear that only God “hath immortality .” (I Tim. 6: 16). In fact, the Bible, on the other hand, contains a number of Scriptures that prove that mortal man receives not his immortality until the second coming of Christ— at the time of the resurrection. (I Cor. 15: 51- 55; John 5: 28, 29). Now please note these unequivocal and authoritative pronouncements on the condition of man in death from Ecclesiastes 9: 5 and 10: “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything .... Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”

I remember the first time I ever read these Scriptures. I immediately wondered why I had always believed that a dead person could speak to me if he so chose. Was this another error of the Roman Church that had been sold to me by the priests? After all, according to the Bible, are not seances meetings in which the devil tries to send his deadly messages to unwary people through a human medium who is supposed to be able to communicate with the so- called spirits of the dead? The greatest of all seances in the Bible occurred when Saul went to the Witch of Endor , described in the Scriptures as “a woman that hath a familiar spirit”— that is, a woman who received messages from an evil angel who claimed to be the “spirit” of a particular dead person usually known to the seeker— and asked her to bring up Samuel from the dead since “the Lord answered him not , neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets?” (I Sam. 28: 6, 7). Since when does a man of God go to the devil for advice when the Lord explicitly said: “Regard not them that have familiar spirits,… to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God”? (Lev. 19: 31; see also Isa. 8: 19, 20). The Bible plainly states: “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence;” for when a man dies, “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish .” (Ps. 115: 17; 146: 4).

So why do most people, both Christians and non- Christians, believe the doctrine of the immortality of the soul? I believe the problem exists because of a misinterpretation of Scripture. In Genesis 2: 7, the Bible says: “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life ; and man became a living soul.” The Hebrew word for “soul” used in this text is nephesh. Besides being translated 428 times as “soul” in the Old Testament, nephesh is also translated as the following: life— 119 times; person— 29 times; and creature— 19 times. “There is nothing in the words translated ‘soul’ or in their usage in the Bible that even remotely implies a conscious entity that survives the body after death, or that attributes immortality to it. Nephesh is not part of the person; it is the person!” (Bible Dictionary by Siegfried H. Horn, Ph. D., p. 1061).

I believe the confusion stems from a misinterpretation of verses like the following: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12: 7). Many people use this verse in an attempt to prove that the “soul” or “spirit” is, therefore, immortal and goes to God at the point of death. But, if you look at Job 27: 3, you will find a Scripture that will help you understand that the “spirit” is simply the breath of life by which man lives, and which is only lent him of God, and at death goes back to the Great Author of life—“ All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils.” The Hebrew word used here for spirit is ruach, which is defined in Gesenius’ Lexicon as follows: (a) spirit or breath; (b) breath of the nostrils; (c) breath of air. When the spirit, or breath of the nostrils, goes back to God, the body, made originally from the dust of the earth, now begins its process of going back to the earth as it was and ceases to function as normally, and the nonbreathing individual no longer exists as a living, conscious, thinking being, but will rest in the grave until he is called forth by the voice of Christ “at the last day.” (John 6: 39). “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice , And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation .” (John 5: 28, 29). The righteous dead will rise at the second coming of Christ and together with the living saints will meet the Lord in the air (see I Thess. 4: 15- 18), but the wicked dead will not rise until one thousand years after the resurrection of the righteous. “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20: 5). How can someone “live again” except he has first experienced having died?

By now, friends, you may be asking yourself the question: “How can the Virgin Mary be alive when the Bible so clearly tells us there is no consciousness in death?” To further establish the point, let us look at a few more Scriptures that prove that man is mortal. In the Book of Job, we read: “Man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost [breatheth out; Strong’s Concordance], and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more [the heavens roll back at Christ’s second coming (Rev. 6: 14)], they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.” (Job 14: 10- 12). And if that weren’t clear enough, Job continues: “If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come . Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee.” (Job 14: 14, 15). Obviously, Job believed that he would sleep in the grave until Jesus called him out on Resurrection Morning. (See also Job 17: 13- 16). After all, it was Jesus who spoke of death as a sleep when referring to Lazarus’s state. He never once implied that Lazarus had gone to heaven, but, on the contrary, said, “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.” (John 11: 11). Then in John 11: 23, Jesus tells Martha, “Thy brother shall rise again,” and Martha responds, “I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus, in calling Lazarus from the tomb, said, “Lazarus, come forth (John 11: 43),” not “Lazarus, come up!” or “Lazarus, come down!” I believe that Jesus’ use of the word sleep is a very appropriate synonym when used in place of the word death (the first death), because the word implies a temporary state— a state from which every soul “shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [the second death (see Rev. 20: 12- 14)].” (Daniel 12: 2).

The great teacher, the apostle Paul, clearly understood that he, too, would sleep in the grave until the second coming of Christ: “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure [death] is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day : and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His [Christ’s] appearing.” (II Tim. 4: 6- 8). Paul knew, as did Martha, that not until the resurrection of the last day, at the second coming of Christ, would he receive the reward of eternal life and be changed from mortality to immortality. Remember, it was Paul who told us in the Sacred Word that mortal man will not put on immortality until the last trumpet blast that calls forth the righteous dead at the coming of Jesus: “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [for some will be living when Christ comes], but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [the Virgin Mary also], and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality [Please notice when this happens— not at death, but at the second coming of Christ].” (I Cor. 15: 51- 53). Earlier in the chapter, Paul stated: “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [Adam] came death, by man [Christ] came also the resurrection of the dead . For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming .” (I Cor. 15: 20- 23).

To solidify this position, let us now look at the request of the thief on the cross, who was crucified next to Jesus as recorded in Luke, Chapter 23. The repentant thief, believing Jesus was indeed the Son of God, “said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.” To this request Jesus responded, “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou [thou shalt] be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23: 42, 43). Those who believe in the doctrine of the immortality of the soul often refer to these Scriptures to prove that the spirit of the dead goes immediately to Heaven at the time of death. But let us take a closer look at Luke 23. First, we need to understand that the comma placed before the word “today” was supplied by the translators. If you place it after the word “today,” it would then read, “Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23: 43). Second, Jesus did not ascend into Heaven as He died, for in John 20: 17, He told Mary in the early morning of His memorable resurrection: “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father .” It should also be noted that this statement was made two days after His death on the cross. Thus, the repentant thief was given, that day [Good Friday— the day of the crucifixion], the assurance of eternal life and a place in Paradise, but he, as with the rest of the righteous dead, would not receive his reward until Jesus comes the second time. (See Rev. 22: 12).

for more of Danny's articles on the Virgin Mary go here: http://www.steps2life.org/library/dvierra/virgin_1.htm

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Claudia Thompson

http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org

 

I just asked my question about faith and works and then I read your words and they echo my own. Why the constant fussing? Why do so many stand on their little hills and spend all their time fighting off all challengers on their little hills?

Somethimes I think the proper answer to most of the issues Christians squabble about is "So what?" It's not the perfect answer, but I think it will generally lead to more Christian behavior then the ceaseless straining at gnats for which the Christian world is (in)famous.

I agree with you. We do it because it feels good. Our pride is at stake. We insist on sitting at the head of the table. We shout "Lord, Lord!" while we tell 99% of the people we meet that they're probably going to hell, and it's their own d----- fault. We're an embarassment to our faith and a scandal to our brothers and sisters.

And I'm no better. I think I am, but that, of course, is my own way of feeling good, feeling righteous. For those who want to go back to the Church of Acts, we should remember what was said about them: "See how they love one another."

OK, I'm done with the soapbox. Next!

 

Claudia;
Your entire post left out one important point.

The rich man and Lazarus.
Jesus never used proper names in His parables, therefore, this is a real story about real people.

BOOM! Your ship has just been sunk. I won't go into the rest of it. But your intial point is well taken. It IS error to pray to Mary, for she can do nothing for anybody.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

The RC poster toss in these grandios claims for Mary compared to Christ - and then "pretend" not to notice that NONE of those grandios claims make honorable mention in scripture. so....

Living4Him responds to these key salient (hugely important RC teachings that are ALL MISSING from scripture) as follows..

Well... that was pretty compelling.

Christ is the only sinless human. Mary is either ALSO sinless (for any reason you choose) or she is not.

The RCC says she IS ALSO sinless just as Christ is sinless. They ALSO argue from Acts 2 that JUST as the sinless Christ should not remain in the grave SO ALSO the sinless Mary "should not".

But NONE OF THAT is in scripture!!

Such MASSIVELY important fact should have made it in LONG before "Timothy fecth my coat when you come to visit me".

The point remains.

You are kidding right?? Do you mean you do not know the "story" for that??

Or are you teasing??

In any case - no such "important event" is mentioned in NT scripture THOUGH it IS mentioned by all who actually BELIEVE in it in the centuries of the dark ages.

The point remains.

Here is the "what kudda happened" argument as if it was "proof". My argument is that IF IT DID happen it would be fully AS BIG as the RCC SAYS it is - and it would get the NT author's "ATTENTION" Just like it gets the RCC's attenion today. For people that REALLY believe it - it GETS their attention.

The lack of ANY attention to that "huge massive detail" in scripture - BY CONTRAST -- is "instructive".

The point remains.

No one has ever claimed to have Joseph's bones or John the Baptists bones or Samuel's bones or Luke's bones or Silas' bones or Martha's bones or Lazarus' bones or...

That "we don't have the bones" argument is NOT proof that some UNWRITTEN story happened!

What we DO Find is that the big events (the resurrections for example) ARE mentioned in scripture!

So the SILENCE we get there on Mary and the ATTENTION we get to "bring my coat with you" by contrast - is HUGELY significant.

The RCC today SHOWS US just how big a deal this SHOULD have been by their OWN super-Mary-sized emphasis on Mary as compared to Christ!

It SHOULD have been in there "somewhere" above "please bring my coat and some of my books" !!

But it did not happen - so there was no huge "Queen of universe assumed into heaven" story to mention!

Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Since some of our RC friends here seem to be in the dark as to the details of mariolotry published by the RCC -- here are some details.

Did I mention "flying disciples"??

How "odd" that all that flying around and resurrection and assumption into heaven - did not make "honorable mention" along with "bring my coat when you come to me".

In Christ,

Bob

[ April 07, 2005, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Yep! That is a lot of resurrecting and a lot of flying about -- and even "standing in the sky watching" going on so they can all get ready to honor the queen of the universe in a proper way -- the way the all-powerful sinless-like-Christ, co-redeemer, co-mediator should rightfully BE honored.

"yet" innexplicably NONE OF THIS deserves to be MENTIONED at ALL in scripture?!!

How "instructive".

Those who "BELIEVE" it -- don't hesitate to mention it -- why so "silent" in the Word of God so that Christians too might believe in it??

Hmm .. why indeed does it "appear" to be a fictional tale from the dark ages instead of a Bible "account"??

Why indeed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wouldn't you love to have been there when that airbus filled with apostles-and-friends arrived??

Oh what a wonderful thing to have seen and possibly even WRITTEN about!!

 

Just wanted to post that sentence again.

Thanks.

 

Yes tragic, we know.

Ain't it wonderful how folks of the common and TRUE faith of Christ DO love one another?

And ain't it instructive how folks of the NT church of Acts pointed out error? And with zeal?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Interesting. Comnpletely missing the point, as usual, but interesting.

 

The point remains - this was "Something to WRITE about" not to COMPLETELY IGNORE and opt for "please bring my books and my coat when you come to see me" INSTEAD of mentioning the airbus!

In Christ,

Bob