Who else believes this

You were just spelling it the British way.

Carry on!

 

genesis12 said:

The Pauline Epistles are sufficient in demonstrating the plan of salvation.

Ironically, as I thumb through the Pauline epistles, I see Paul supporting his reasoning by quoting the Law left, right, and centre.

 

How could the Pauline Epistles be sufficient---for say, Phillip, as he was called upon to help bring the Etheopian Eunich to a saving knowledge of Christ----when----the epistles in question on this board hadn't even begun to be inked!!!???

 

And 3000 were saved through the preaching of Peter on Pentecost - and his text came from the Psalms and the prophet Joel.

I'll bet at this point he'd never even heard of Paul.

 

The Law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Gal. 3:23-24

The Gospel is what saves (Rom. 1:16) once we realize that we cannot keep the Law to God's standard (Mt. 5:48) in order to establish righteousness. Gal. 2:16

 

"Savior, and saviour are equally correct, with this being one of the few words where this is so. Generally, even where there are two spellings that are "correct", one is preferred and the other, though "permitted", is at best, discouraged. However, when used as other than a descriptive term, and relating to the Lord Jesus Christ, Saviour or Savior should utilize an 'upper case' "S"."

Signed, Language Cop

Folks, I want to apologize for the rudeness of my buddy, Language Cop. He can be rather unyielding. I don't think he ever got over not having a 'forum', and NOT being asked to replace the late NBC newsman, Edwin Newman.

"Sigh!" So he takes his own frustration out on the rest of us.
In His grace,
Ed

 

"Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." —Paul of Tarsus

 

"Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." —Paul of Tarsus </font>[/QUOTE]I did not know this. I thought that the Law was much more, and included the feasts, sacrifices, circumcision, etc., and that most of it was done away with (due to fulfillment of physical requirements) except for the ten commandments, which were moral and not physical.

I've been taught two different things about it, in two different Baptist churches, so I'm open to hearing more.

 

I think most of the posts agree with one another for the most part, but not all, we just put it a little different. We are made free from the Law through the body of Christ but only because we don't do those things anymore. If I see a sign that says "Drunk drivers go to jail" I am free from that law because I don't drink. Same is true with the Commandments so even if you are saved and free from the Law doesn't mean you can continue any longer therein. "Shall we make void the Law through faith, God forbid, but we establish the Law" in other words to the sinner and ungodly.

 

There are not Ten Commandments any more; there are only nine. We got rid of #4 fifty years ago. It took a long time (at least seventeen centuries), but Christians finally figured it out.

As for conversions, I think it's important to remember that not everyone is converted in the same way: some take a long time, some don't; some weep, some don't; etc.

I was nearing my fourteenth birthday when I was saved. I wasn't thinking about having broken certain laws, I was convicted by the Holy Spirit in a profound way of the fact that I was without God, lost, damned, and I had resisted his lordship over my heart and life for as long as I could remember. I was pretty much an unchurched kid, but very bright. When I read a Chick tract or heard the gospel, the conviction was severe.

I believe in preaching the law and dealing thoroughly with sinners, but we need to reject a "one size fits all" formula.

 

A few points in response to some posts:

Ransom: The unsaved person is saved from himself. For it is he who sins and thus deserves eternal punishment. It is not enough to have sins paid for and forgiven, one must have a new heart -- which is what being born again involves. And it is when the unsaved person sees the person who is saved, and sees that different life and different way of going that he sees something he wants and cannot achieve for himself because of his own rottenness. Preaching the law only tells people they are going to hell. It does not make them want what we have -- for I can guarantee to you that they do not want to become 'law thumpers' in the name of Christ! The law was fulfilled in Christ.

Gina: There are two different sets of laws in the OT. The command for capital punishment given to Noah (Gen. 9) and the Ten Commandments were universal, to all men. However what followed the Ten Commandments were laws for the theocracy of Israel. The distinction is pretty easy to make in the Bible as well as common sense. The Ten Commandments are possible to be kept as individuals. The Israelite law required a theocracy, or political set-up, to keep those laws.

However, all were summed up by Christ in the two Great Commandments -- to love God with everything in you and your neighbor as yourself. So if we are going to talk law, let us talk as Jesus did, that love is the foundation for it all.

Frenchy: It is not our job to convict of sin. That is the job of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8). We read in Romans 2 that even the unsaved have consciences now excusing and now convicting them. God has set it up so He confronts every man internally with the truth of sin. How a man responds to that truth is his choice. We cannot browbeat anyone into responding the way we WANT them to respond. Believe me, God wants them to respond to Him positively far more than any of us could!

It is our job to show Christ within us. He knows how to approach each man and woman we meet. Let's get ourselves out of the way with our preconceived notions and let Him do His work -- and the best way to do that is through careful attention to the leading of the Holy Spirit and prayer.

 

Real conversions are the work of God the Holy Spirit as exemplified by the following Scripture:

Ephesians 2:1-10, NKJV
1. And you (He made alive), who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

Christ fullfilled the Sacrificial Law. He said he came to fullfill the things written in the books of Moses and Pslams concerning him. By Grace are you saved (though faith) and faith without works is dead. And on these two Commandents hang all the Law and Prophets. ( If you love me you will keep my Commandments) That is the first of the two and gets all the rest in doing so. (If you offend in one point you are guilty of all). How could you possibly "love thy neighbor and covet his wife". So, you can't keep those two without keeping the others. You may have done away with the fourth but God didn't. So, can you be a Christian and an adultress at the same time?

 

Helen said:

Ransom: The unsaved person is saved from himself.

Wrong again Helen.

Jesus bore our sins on the cross. He did not bear our selves. That concept is alien to biblical theology. (I tend to prefer biblical theology to helenology.)

It is not enough to have sins paid for and forgiven, one must have a new heart -- which is what being born again involves.

Wrong again Helen. Not only is it enough for sins to be paid for and forgiven, it is the only basis upon which reconciliation with God is possible. Christ's work on the cross expiated sins by transferring them from our account to his. Christ propitiates God's just wrath on sinners by becoming the object of wrath himself.

In Christ, sinners are no longer counted sinners. That is the sole objective basis of the new birth.

And it is when the unsaved person sees the person who is saved, and sees that different life and different way of going that he sees something he wants and cannot achieve for himself because of his own rottenness.

Wrong again Helen. God's righteousness is made known through Christ (Rom. 3:21-26), and it is by that righteousness alone that men may stand justified before God. What is the righteousness of a saved person compared to the perfections of the Lord Jesus?

Preaching the law only tells people they are going to hell. It does not make them want what we have

Unless they are made aware that God has a standard of righteousness that they are incapable of meeting, they will not know what we have.

And to present it as something else is, quite frankly, a lie.

-- for I can guarantee to you that they do not want to become 'law thumpers' in the name of Christ! The law was fulfilled in Christ.

The unsaved are not in Christ. And outside of Christ they will answer to the Almighty for their failure to live up to his standards.

 

O, what tangled webs we weave. My comment was directed to today's New Testament church, in response to Brutus. Context, context, context. Sigh.........

In reply to a question about the greatest commandment, Jesus said that we are to love the Lord completely, and our neighbor as ourself. He said ALL the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments. Phillip and Peter certainly understood that!

 

Genesis12: Today it's often assumed that because the witness of conscience cannot save, it has no part in the work of conversion. To alarm and direct the concience is not seen as part of evangelistic teaching, and if anyone shows any sign of trouble of conscience the direction is at once given that there's no need for concern, the person's only responsibility is to believe in Christ.

This teaching is so common that any alternative procedure is almost unthinkable! But the fact is that old-school evangelism believed that the call to faith isn't the one direction necessary as soon as there is any sign of interest or concern.

But rather the preacher should join with conscience and press home its witness by insisting on obedience to all that God commands. The truth is that an awakened person's sense of obligation to change his life-style is right. There is a reversal of conduct required and the individual needs to be told so as John the Baptist and the Apostle Paul told their hearers in Lk.3:8-14; Acts 24:25.

But this isn't enough. The awakened sinner doesn't know the extent of what is required of him. The repentance God demands is no partial change, no temporary feeling of sorrow, but an entire change of life.