Who goes to Heaven?

[Karen]

Originally posted by Karen:
.....
HOWEVER, the Bible has a great deal to say even from a strictly Calv. perspective........
See http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0411.htm
Karen[/QB]

Thank you, Pastor Larry and Helen, for the points you cleared up.

The URL I posted from Spurgeon is too long for me to quote from, but it is worth reading. It, on a Calvinist basis, rejects forcefully the view that any babies miss Heaven. In addition to specific Scripture, including Ezekiel 16: 21, it addresses the revealed character of God.

Karen

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Latreia:

That's not correct IMO. David was talking about himself and his child; his situation. There is no reason to say that he was making a universally applicable statement of faith, that what is true for him must be true for all.
--------------------------------------------
O.K. What about the phillipian Jailer, when Paul answered his question of how can I be saved by saying Believe on the Lord and you will be saved. Was Paul talking only to the jailer or was he making a theological statement? Remember that in one instance Paul did say that this is my opinion and not God's but other than that 2 Tim 3:16 applies, and come to think of it even if Paul said this is only my view when God allowed it to be included in the Bible did God not Amen Paul's thoughts.
----------------------------------------------

I just deny that balnket statements can be made.
How about whosoever will may come?

Now I don't agree that all babies go to heaven. But there is great wisdom in affirming that it is up to God whatever the case may be, and we won't really know until we are in heaven ourselves. Dogmatism is unwarranted. That should impact what we share on the question with those grieving. Offer them God, His grace, His hope. But not our own opinions. Affirm what we know for sure, not what we can only guess at.[/QB]

-------------------------------------------------
Let me add a couple more thoughts to this mud pie, There are alot of things that we won't really know until we get there but by faith we look for them, as far as dogmatism being unwarranted, sorry but that's in my job description. Bottom line for me Jesus said whosoever believeth and he also said to believe like a little child. Now when Jesus held up that little child was he making a theological statement or was he simply speaking of that particular child or maybe as God He carefully picked up a particular child that was elected to be saved. Or maybe He was simply stating that if we would believe as sincerely as little children already believe that we would be saved.
Murphy

 

[Lorelei]

Headline Reads:

Bus drives off cliff, survivors left for dead

A bus of children on thier way home from school slid out of control and drove off a cliff today. A witness at the scene rescued a few of the children but said he didn't feel like rescuing the rest, so he left them all to die. He will be honored with a good citenship award by the mayor this evening. The parents of the dead children will be there praising this man for saving those he elected to save. They realize their children deserve to suffer in the burning fire, because this man determined it to be so.

Let's all praise the man that saved 3 children and forget the 20 that lay dead forever more.

If your child was one of the dead, would you truly honor this man???

If humans were given compassion, a trait that God entrusted to us, don't you believe that God himself will be compassionate?

He wants "all men to be saved"

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 3:16-19
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those who suffer in hell do so because they refuse to partake of the gift that God offered to all. Children never have the chance to make that choice and God, unlike the stranger above, is compassionate.

We are told to love our enemies and to show mercy. Do you really think God expects us to be something even that he is not? For if he only elects some and denies the rest even the ability or chance to respond to His gift, then he shows no love or mercy in sending those to hell.

Love whatever God you choose, I love the God that the Bible speaks of, one that desires all of us to come to Him.

~Lorelei

[ August 12, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Loralei,

I think you have painted the picture a little differently than Scripture does. There is no buswreck with children lying around wanting someone to save them. People who go to hell do so because of their wilfull rejection of truth. They are doing exactly what they want to do. An illustration such as yours is not all that helpful because it talks about apples when the discussion is about oranges.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Lorelai, I appreciate your post and I have to dissaree with Larry I don't see any reason to dismiss your post.
Murphy

 

[Helen]

Actually, Lorelei, your picture is totally on target.

Children cannot help having a sin nature.
Those children could not help being on that bus.

The children were in the crash because of the bus driver, not because of themselves.
Children are born with a sin nature because of Adam, not because of themselves.

Without rescue, all those children on the bus would have died (according to the story).
Without rescue, all children born today would go to hell forever.

The one person capable of rescuing the children decided to quit after three.
In Calvinism, God chooses who He wants to rescue and, if you will excuse the expression, to hell with the rest (in this case it is not an expression!)

The one person capable of rescuing the children rescued them all, and they all survived.
Biblically, the children all belong to Christ. For without the law, sin is dead. That means sin, even though it is there, does not have the power to kill them spiritually (separate them from God).

In which scenario does God receive the most glory?

In which scenario do we all rejoice most fully?

In which scenario are we all the most thankful?

In which scenario is the result loving God more?

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
People who go to hell do so because of their wilfull rejection of truth. They are doing exactly what they want to do.

Please explain to me how an infant can willfully reject the truth and choose hell when they have no concept of either?

I think Helen did a great job in illustrating how my post was indeed relevant.

~Lorelei

 

[TheOliveBranch]

I have three babies that never made it into the world. I have a son that may or may not ever have the ability to understand the simple plan of salvation.

I thought for a long time about this, being in the situations that God has placed in my path. The other thought is, what if we are raptured? Will my babies go with?

Emotion is so hard to separate from biblical truth. I would prefer to believe that all babies, and the mentally unable go to heaven. I remember hearing at an ordination, a question on this subject was asked how, as a pastor, if a person came to him, would he support this with the New Testament. The NT doesn't give a direct verse to support this idea.

(Funny how we want to find applications for this emotional suject, yet for others, application is hard to be found.

) God gave me an application that may apply: I Cor 7:12-14. Yes, David had the belief that he would see his son in heaven. David was also a believer.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

We have a woman in her 40's with Downe's syndrome That I pick up and bring to church. I also have had experience with other similar folks. Now this woman has stated that she only goes to church because our pastor is "cute". When reminded of his marraige, she states "she can leave". She can walk to the local package store and buy herself beer, and often drinks to the point of trouble. She will say "it's my life" when asked. We still bring her to church, where she usually sleeps. She is hard to be around, and is pretty low functioning. She used to grab my steering wheel and try to drive into people, now I only bring her if she sits in the back.

God created her like this. I am sure after my year and 1/2 of knowing her that she does not comprehend sin, or the need for a savior.

Is God really going to send her to hell ? I kinda doubt it.

I don't want to sound mean, or spiteful, but I really do believe God brought her into my life for some lessons in patience.

Any thoughts ?

 

[peaches-ohio]

Helen et al,
Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I lost a child through miscarriage, and am now infertile. I can feel in my heart that I will be joined with my child again in heaven and it comforts me greatly.

 

[Bible-belted]

C.S. Murphy,

I don't deny that there are statements in scripture which are clearly applicable beyond their immediate context. But that fact does not, of itself, justify assuming that David's staement is one of them. If you want to claim that it should be so considered, you will have to provide reason to do so. Your presentation misrepresents what I said and shows a poor grasp of what I said.

As for dogmatism being in your job description, I doubt that you are correct. The ultimate fate of infants and those others we might consider lacking in mental capacity is simply not on the same level as the deity of Christ for example. It cannot be considered as something to be dogmatic about when Scripture is so obviously not clear on the question.

You might want to consider that Original Sin is a doctrine that you SHOULD be dogmatic about, but apparently are willing to wink at. That is of course your choice.

 

[Bible-belted]

Lorelei,

Pastor Larry is correct in pointing out that you have a flawed premise in your presentation. People go to hell for wilful rejection of truth. That is Paul's argument in Romans. It admits no exceptions.

Now you raise a good question in asking how infants can make such a rejection. Let me respond in two ways. First, by pointing out that even if Scritpure does not answer that question, it nevertheless does tell us that ALL have sinned. We cannot ignore what Scripture says because of what it does not say. Second, I believe that Scripture does tell us how ALL without exception have sinned, and that is "in Adam". Again, let me point out that even if you disagree with this point 2, you still must contend with point 1.

TheOliveBranch,

As one who has a simliar history toyours with children, I appreciate your response. Measured. Thoughtful. Thank you.

Mr. Curtis,

Paul says that all people have some awareness of God that they turn from. Hence all are without excuse. I submit that applies to your friend. But I am also willing to submit that to the extent that God can be apprehended, so can His grace, and faith can happen.

peaches,

I appreciate your response and your assurance. I praise God for it, as a wonderful gift.

To all:

Is it only me who sees people triying to find ways fo gettng out of original sin that don't actually reckon witht he scriptural basis for that doctrine??

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Latreia I feel that you may be the one with the poor grasp. As to my point on David I stand by it if for no other reason than 2 tim 3:16 it's all good for doctrine. I never intended to convert you as I noted earlier I have my belief about God's word and you have yours. I also don't wink at sin knowingly, I fully realize that sin passes to all but I also realize that my saviour knows where I am coming from when I call for him, reguardless of language or words and I believe Jesus can handle the salvation of children. I Pray that you will come to this realization especially after I read you are a Pastor.
Murph

 

[Bible-belted]

"Latreia I feel that you may be the one with the poor grasp."

LOL!! I can assure you that I understnd what I say better than you do.

"As to my point on David I stand by it if for no other reason than 2 tim 3:16 it's all good for doctrine."

And I affirm 2Tim 3:16. However you must acknowledge that this in no way grants your interpretation of the Scripture in question. The question isn;t whether David is teaching something but WHAT he is teaching. To say that he teaches what ou say he does byt tossing out 2Tim 3:16 in mere question begging.

"I never intended to convert you as I noted earlier I have my belief about God's word and you have yours. I also don't wink at sin knowingly, I fully realize that sin passes to all but I also realize that my saviour knows where I am coming from when I call for him, reguardless of language or words and I believe Jesus can handle the salvation of children. I Pray that you will come to this realization especially after I read you are a Pastor."

And I don't expect to"convert" anyone either. I did not say you wink at sin, so much as you seem to be willing to admit exceptins to the doctrine of orginal sin. That's not saying the same thing.

I also affirm that Jesus can handle the salvation of Children. I have never denied that he can or that he has or willl save children. What I have denied, and no one has produced any evidence to the contrary, is that there is biblical grounds for a blanket statement regarding the ultimate fate of ALL children. To say that Jesus can and does save some is not to say he saves all. Others may make that leap, but Scripture is not clear or unequivocal on the question. Best not to be more certain than Scripture alows. That is giving people potentially false hope. That is bad pastoral praxis. Good pastoral praxis says that we should give people certainty regarding that which is certain. That I do.

As for your prayers, you would do better to pray that people come to a knowledge of the truth, and that is not necessarily your position. Remember, I belive that they are all in God's hands. I just don't agree about what God does with them. Afgter all, every person is in God's hands, and He allows some to perish. Is God less just or more just for allowing Adults to go to Hell? Is there any rational way of arguing this? I don't think so, and yet tha is essentially what ou support. If adults go to hell, that's just, abut iof infants do tehn He is not, even though the crime in both cases is the SAME. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

If you feel that puts you on better pastoral or theological footing than I, that is your prerogative.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
People who go to hell do so because of their wilfull rejection of truth. They are doing exactly what they want to do.

Please explain to me how an infant can willfully reject the truth and choose hell when they have no concept of either?</font>[/QUOTE]Who said they did?

Helen's explanation of your post did not come any closer to representing the actual state of affairs than your post did. The world is not a bus wreck of people. If we use your illustration, they are at best people who prefer to lay in the bus because they are unwilling to be carried out by the person who offers them help. People are unsaved because of their will. Hence, they will not come to Christ. No one is forcing them to lay in that bus wreck. But even that has its flaws because those people in the bus wreck are alive. Man is spiritually not alive. He is dead in trespasses and sins and walks according to his desires. Period. I don't have the option to ignore that and hope it ends up not being true. I accept it and work within that framework.

 

[LORDs_diakonos]

I have read alot of your posts here and I think alot are forgeting that we serve the mighty and sovereign LORD of the universe. So I would like to post a couple of questions
Does anyone die outside of God's control?
Is anyone born with a defect that God didn't himself knit together in the womb. as the psalms teach? (God told Moses it was He who made the deaf, dumb, blind, and the mute.)
I saw that alot of people used the 2 sam ref to prove that children went to heaven. You really can't say that because the Hebrew there is sheol,meaning the grave. It is not a reference to heaven according to the language. I also think a proper understanding of people is in order. psalm 51 teaches that we are conceived in sin ok and then in psalm 58 it teaches that we come right from the womb doing (good?) No speaking lies and bring forth wrath. The Bible also teaches in Psalm 14 and of course Rom 3 that no one seeks after God. No one is no one. People including all of us decieve ourselves in this area, at least prior to salvation. So I have another question.
Will the God of the Bible just overlook sin?
Of course not.
To say that because a child never understood the gospel is not a good arguement because the end of that is that all who haven't heard the gospel are saved. Sin doesn't matter at that point. No one understands the gospel unless God allows them to. The natural man does not undestand the things of the spirit. 2 Cor 2
Something that I have noticed since the Lord saved me is that people are very relucant to give God the credit for their salvation. They talk about it alot but when it all boils down to it in their theology their salvation was very dependant on themselves. One only has to look at Romans 8:28-30 to see that every single one that God foreknew He glorified. In fact it seems that in God's eyes all this is already completed as it is all in past tense. That is how God sees salvation according to the Bible. He foreknew us, He predestined us, He called us, He justified us, and yes He glorified us. To God be the glory. We must remember God in this issue. We must remember that He is a God that even turns the kings heart as He wills. What an awsome and powerful God we serve. Let us see Him as His Word describes Himself and let us see ourselves as we truely are. According to Psalm 14,51,58, Romans 3 (helpless, deserving of hell, and yes depraved) Lets be thankful for God's love Romans 5:8 and remember that salvation is of God and not man. It is God who wills not man Romans 9. .
Q.So will babies goto heaven?
A.Won't the judge of all the earth do what's right?
It does seem that a Sovereign God wouldn't let a a child die before the time He laid down. People Nothing happens outside of God's timing.(NOTHING)
Biblically we will either be judged by our works or the rightouesness we recieve from Christ through grace by the faith given to us. Let's all turn our focus to the Sovereign Lord of the universe and praise Him for the great things He has done. And everthing that He does is true and right. The foundations of His throne are justice and rightousness. One final question.
Q.How big is your God
Grace
jason

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Latreia:
Lorelei,

&lt;snip&gt;
To all:

Is it only me who sees people triying to find ways fo gettng out of original sin that don't actually reckon witht he scriptural basis for that doctrine??

No, Letreia. I see that too. For the most part, those who argue that all babies do go to heaven do so from an emotional standpoint and bring up Scripture that cannot be supported by other clear scriptures.
For example, they say all babies go to heaven because of Matthew 18 where Jesus called a little child to come to Him and during His sermon in verse 10 said

Take heed that ye despise not these little ones, for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven

but a careful reading of verses 4-6 will show that He is really speaking of believers and not little children.
Comparing Scripture with Scripture, again, we see in Matthew 19:13 -14 a similar incident and again we read Jesus saying that of such is the kingdom of heaven.
That is not to mean heaven is full of babies !
Rather, I take it when He looks at little children He sees His people, His redeemed, minus their malice and sin and doubts, the same way that God looks at a blood-washed sinner and sees His Son !
I have five children and have watched them grow up from babies to adulthood. I was in the delivery room when my eldest son was born, nearly choked to death because his umbilical was looped around his neck. Now I have 3 grandchildren by my daughters, and 12 by my nieces, and I love babies !
But our love for them does not annul what Scriptures say.
No. Scriptures do not say all babies go to hell, or to heaven.
But scripture does say all have sinned, and the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.
And it is this same book in a later chapter that says "For whom He has foreknown, them he also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren, moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom He called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified....."
There are babies that go to heaven.
I just feel disappointed that CS Murphy would refer to this discussion as a mudpile because I think by extension then those who are in this discussion are, to him, .... hogs ?

 

[Bible-belted]

"No, Letreia. I see that too."

Whew! I was getting worried there!

"For the most part, those who argue that all babies do go to heaven do so from an emotional standpoint and bring up Scripture that cannot be supported by other clear scriptures."

Yes, but you know, I relate to those feelings very well. Having such a personal stake in the issue means you can't help but relate. It isn't easy to try to suppress the emotion under the discipline of consistently logical exegesis of the relevant Scriptures.

"Scriptures do not say all babies go to hell, or to heaven.
But scripture does say all have sinned, and the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.
And it is this same book in a later chapter that says "For whom He has foreknown, them he also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren, moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom He called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified....."
There are babies that go to heaven."

Amen. And I pray that I may be assured that my Morgan is one of them. But even if I am not, I still know that it is still possible that we will meet again in the Lord's presence. For I know that the judge of al the earth will do right. But he will do so according to His lights, and not ours. For He has mercy on those whom He will have mercy. And on those He does not... He does not. And I the clay will not presume to scold the Potter for that. Even if one of thos on whom He chooses to not have mercy is my Morgan. Though He destroy me (or my Morgan) yet will I trust Him. Does it make sense? No, not in my heart, where the emotions dwell. But to whom else will we go? He alone has the words of eternal life.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
People who go to hell do so because of their wilfull rejection of truth. They are doing exactly what they want to do.

Please explain to me how an infant can willfully reject the truth and choose hell when they have no concept of either?</font>[/QUOTE]Who said they did?</font>[/QUOTE]

Then do the children go to heaven or hell? Be consistent with the rest of your beliefs when answering.

They either:

1. All go to heaven

2. Only those predestined go to heaven and the rest go to hell

If any go to hell, how did they willfully make that choice?

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If we use your illustration, they are at best people who prefer to lay in the bus because they are unwilling to be carried out by the person who offers them help

It isn't that they are unwilling, it us that they aren't even allowed to ask for help, because they haven't been drawn by God. If only those who God calls can even ask for help, then it isn't by their own choice, it is because they were refused even the offer of help.

According to Calvanism, Christ died only for the elect and as Helen stated to hell with the rest.

So where is there offer of help? How can they reject what was never offered?

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
No one is forcing them to lay in that bus wreck.

No one is offering a way out, so what choice do they have?

If it is our will to sin and that will can only be changed by God's will, then we have no choice but to sin! How can you blame a person for not choosing that which is not accessable to them?

They died for exactly that reason, they were forced by their lack of alternatives.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
It even that has its flaws because those people in the bus wreck are alive. Man is spiritually not alive. He is dead in trespasses and sins and walks according to his desires. Period. I don't have the option to ignore that and hope it ends up not being true. I accept it and work within that framework.

And Christ is what makes us alive. But we aren't so dead that we can't respond.

Ephesians 5:14
4 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:

"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you

3:22-25
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
NIV

A strange God says it comes to all who believe but makes impossible for many to even try.

Matt 7:13-14

13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
NIV

He says few find it, not that God only draws a few to it.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by LORDs_diakonos:

To say that because a child never understood the gospel is not a good arguement because the end of that is that all who haven't heard the gospel are saved.

We have given biblical examples of how God has shown that children under a certain age are not held accountable for thier actions. That is not the same as saying anyone who has not heard the gospel is saved.

Originally posted by LORDs_diakonos:
Sin doesn't matter at that point. No one understands the gospel unless God allows them to.

Then why did God have a desire for us to reason together? Why did Paul spend much time reasoning with people, trying to persuade them?

Originally posted by LORDs_diakonos:

Something that I have noticed since the Lord saved me is that people are very relucant to give God the credit for their salvation. They talk about it alot but when it all boils down to it in their theology their salvation was very dependant on themselves.

I have never heard anyone say this! I am saved only by the blood of Christ, there was nothing I could do to save myself. But yes, I did have to say yes. That does not credit myself with anything other then the choice. God gave us a choice.

It amazes me that people who espouse freedom so much in America, so readily accept a God that offers no freedom to anyone. He only draws those who he wills and is praised for damning those with no choice to hell. If that were an emporer in a Communist country, you would be there fighting to free those he ruled so ruthlessly!

Originally posted by LORDs_diakonos:
Let's all turn our focus to the Sovereign Lord of the universe and praise Him for the great things He has done. And everthing that He does is true and right. The foundations of His throne are justice and rightousness.

What about the God of love, what about the God of mercy?

My God is indeed soveriegn, but he is also loving and merciful. You so easily ignore all that God is!

Originally posted by LORDs_diakonos:

One final question.
Q.How big is your God
Grace
jason

How loving is yours?

~Lorelei