....I don't understand how Rev 19 could be interpreted any other way, than the final appearing of Christ to judge the nations and gather the elect to himself.,,,,,
....Jesus steps foot on earth.
Where in Rev 19 does He step foot on terra firma?
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....I don't understand how Rev 19 could be interpreted any other way, than the final appearing of Christ to judge the nations and gather the elect to himself.,,,,,
....Jesus steps foot on earth.
.....The Bible states we are seated with Him right now in the heavenlies. In a sense we did take part in the first resurrection.
Where in Rev 19 does He step foot on terra firma?
It does not say explicitly that he does...
That he does actually set foot on the earth again, at his glorious appearing, should be unquestionable. Is that the return pictured in Rev 19? That, I suppose, is debatable to some but I do think that Rev 19 is the final return of Christ at the end of the age.
It does not say explicitly that he does, nor did I say it does. You pulled that second quote from a brief discussion on the similarities between Historic premillennialism and amillennialism, not a discussion on Rev 19.
That he does actually set foot on the earth again, at his glorious appearing, should be unquestionable. Is that the return pictured in Rev 19? That, I suppose, is debatable to some but I do think that Rev 19 is the final return of Christ at the end of the age.
Right here ...Where does Revelation 20 speak of a judgment of Saints coming out of the "Tribulation"?
Thank you.
So you think Rev 19 pictures this final glorious appearing:
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15:23,24, 25
Note, at His next coming comes 'the end'. The kingdom has been already. He has reigned already.
Right here ...Revelation 20, NASBThe judgment is based on their obedience, resulting in their resurrection and reign with the church age saints for a thousand years.
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."This" referring to the Tribulation saints from v. 4.
Nope. Just like James said, "Show me your faith without works, I'll show you my faith by my works."Are you teaching a salvation by works during the so-called great tribulation?
The repeated mention of 1,000 years mainly.....Again, mainly it is the seeming insistence on 1,000 years.
Thank you.
So you think Rev 19 pictures this final glorious appearing:
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15:23,24, 25
Note, at His next coming comes 'the end'. The kingdom has been already. He has reigned already.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Rev 20
By that logic (of repetition) Babylon the great is judged in exactly one literal hour:
10 standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
17 for in an hour so great riches is made desolate. And every shipmaster, and every one that saileth any wither, and mariners, and as many as gain their living by sea, stood afar off,
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rev 18
....or is it rather that the former is conveying the idea of a very long period of time while the latter is presenting something that happens very suddenly?
Right here ...Revelation 20, NASBThe judgment is based on their obedience, resulting in their resurrection and reign with the church age saints for a thousand years.
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
So the Rapture is not the first resurrection?[5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."This" referring to the Tribulation saints from v. 4.
You're right. I didn't say it said anything about church age saints. Paul wrote to his protégé and affirmed this.A literal interpretation of Revelation 20:4 says nothing about what you call "church age saints".
You're right. I didn't say it said anything about church age saints. Paul wrote to his protégé and affirmed this.
2 Timothy 2, NASB
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
It is nothing but gross eisegesis to say that Scripture has anything to do with the vanishing church or the earthly millennium.
In Revelation 19, the Wedding Feast of the Lamb takes place just before Christ returns to Earth with His army -- us. So, if we aren't raptured and in heaven as a the body/bride of Christ prior to the tribulation, how do we follow Him into battle after the Wedding Feast, and then get resurrected after the battle? We don't. We're in heaven because of the rapture. The tribulation saints are resurrected after the defeat of Satan and the antichrist.
First: I agree that Revelation 19 pictures the return of Jesus Christ, but at the end of time as we know it, not prior to a millennial reign.
Second: This final battle between good and evil, must not be seen as a physical conflict, rather this is a spiritual battle described in apocalyptic language. In this final battle the conflict must be short lived. Furthermore, we need not understand this army of the beast as actually constituting a gathered army. Nothing can withstand the sovereign power of God. When He declares: It is done [Revelation 17:17] the same voice that spoke the universe into existence [Hebrews 11:3, John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16] will destroy all opposition to the reign of God.
Third: The marriage and marriage supper does not actually take place until after the Second Coming followed by the Great White Throne Judgment. As shown below the New Jerusalem symbolically the Church, the chaste Virgin Bride of Jesus Christ, and the total number of the redeemed throughout time, is united with the Triune God in the New Heavens and New Earth.
Revelation 21:1-3
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."This" referring to the Tribulation saints from v. 4. [/FONT][/SIZE]
It is the first resurrection after the Tribulation. The Rapture itself is a resurrection apart from the one in Revelation 20. There is obviously more than one resurrection.Again, are you saying the "rapture" is not the first resurrection.
It is the first resurrection after the Tribulation. The Rapture itself is a resurrection apart from the one in Revelation 20. There is obviously more than one resurrection.
There is a series of resurrections. The first was the dead Jesus raised before the cross. The "great resurrection" was that of Christ after the cross, which included many saints (Matthew 27:52) who were said to have "fallen asleep." That is, died.Two! The resurrection of Jesus Christ and the general resurrection of ALL the dead John 5:28, 29!
There is a series of resurrections. The first was the dead Jesus raised before the cross. The "great resurrection" was that of Christ after the cross, which included many saints (Matthew 27:52) who were said to have "fallen asleep." That is, died.
Neither of those passages can be said to establish the "snatching away" of the Church. This is particularly true of the passage from John 14. In fact that Scripture says nothing about resurrection of the body but is fulfilled daily as the Saints of God go to be with Jesus Christ.Next will come the resurrection of the church, occurring at the time of the Rapture. All those who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ during the church age, and have died before Jesus returns, will be resurrected at the rapture. The church age began on the Day of Pentecost and will end when Christ returns to take believers back to heaven with Him.
John 14, NASBPaul explained that not all Christians will die, but all will be changed, i.e., given resurrection-type bodies (1 Corinthians 15:50-58), some without having to die. Christians who are alive, and those who have already died, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him always.
1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.