Who is a Calvinist?

[atpollard]

Luke 10 is the story of the Good Samaritan in response to a question on inheriting eternal life and loving one’s neighbor. When we consider God in the place of the Good Samaritan, I think this helps illuminate how loving God is. However, In the case of Calvinism, some (the elect) are sinners on the road and He will save them, like the Good Samaritan. Others (not the elect) are sinners on the road that He will pass by like the priest or the Levite. The idea of giving rain and sun seems to indicate that it is enough for them to be beaten on the road clinging to life with rain and sun falling on them as a demonstration of God’s love, and this is enough to demonstrate that He is loving.

The danger in many Bible stories is conflating God and Man. The Bible says that "vengeance is mine" [God's] ... indicating that PEOPLE are not to "even the score". However, that does not mean that the GOVERNMENT is not to uphold Law and Order (it is not for no reason that Caesar wields the sword) and it does not mean that GOD cannot judge (ask the people dragged off into Babylon).

The same God that gave us the story of the Good Samaritan to correct our thinking about how WE should treat others, also provided a story about a feast and people that made excuses and refused to come to illustrate how God (King of Kings) treats people. Everyone was invited and everyone rejected the invitation. Some were compelled.

To me, this seems to be advocating a God of partiality, which we know God is not (Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9).

God chose Israel ... God is a God of partiality (just not prejudice).

 

[Psalty]

Thank you for this. Since I have a moment, I just want to clarify something that you did not answer. Ephesians 1:10b-11 says:

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Do you believe that God works all things after the counsel of His will? Do you believe that people on the wide path are worked there according to the counsel of God’s will? I really need to know your answer to these 2 questions before I can go further with your idea of compatibalism. I’m not trying to be tricky here, I just need to know what you believe on this issue. Please grant me some clarity

I am a compatibalist.

I believe that EVERYONE starts out on the WIDE PATH:
[Ephesians 2:1-3] Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else. [NLT]


I believe the WIDE PATH is our free will choice according to our fallen nature:
[John 3:18-20] "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. [NLT]

[Romans 1:18-22] But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. [NLT]

[Romans 3:10-12] As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one." [NLT]


I believe that GOD does something ("But God") to change that trajectory:
[John 6:44] For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. [NLT]

[Acts 16:14] One of them was Lydia from Thyatira, a merchant of expensive purple cloth, who worshiped God. As she listened to us, the Lord opened her heart, and she accepted what Paul was saying. [NLT]

[Romans 9:15-16] For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. [NLT]

[Ephesians 2:8-10] God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago. [NLT]


... the trajectory for "His sheep":
[John 10:26-30] "But you don't believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father's hand. The Father and I are one." [NLT]

[Acts 13:48] When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers. [NLT]

 

[Psalty]

Regarding the Good Samaritan:
1. Are you suggesting that God would not hold Himself to the standard that He holds men to? Are we not to reflect God’s character, and isn’t this story to teach us to act as God would act?
2. If there is an example of salvation that you would prefer to discuss, I’m happy to do it. I am not sure if you are talking about Matthew 22 or the passage in Luke in your quote. Let me know and I can then address. I will say that the story of the Good Samaritan will not conflict with whatever story you are looking at, so let’s look at this together.

Regarding Partiality:
Choosing Israel to be a nation did not guarantee salvation. He chose them to be His Bride and a Holy Nation. After choosing them, He swallowed up many of them because of their sin. Are you suggesting that Choosing Israel is the same as choosing people for Salvation?

The danger in many Bible stories is conflating God and Man. The Bible says that "vengeance is mine" [God's] ... indicating that PEOPLE are not to "even the score". However, that does not mean that the GOVERNMENT is not to uphold Law and Order (it is not for no reason that Caesar wields the sword) and it does not mean that GOD cannot judge (ask the people dragged off into Babylon).

The same God that gave us the story of the Good Samaritan to correct our thinking about how WE should treat others, also provided a story about a feast and people that made excuses and refused to come to illustrate how God (King of Kings) treats people. Everyone was invited and everyone rejected the invitation. Some were compelled.


God chose Israel ... God is a God of partiality (just not prejudice).

 

[JesusFan]

In regards to the OP:

I know from my perspective that there are other paths to walk when looking at how God exerts His power and how salvation is accomplished.
1. Synergism
2. Corporate view of election and predestination
3. And others
Arminianism came out of Calvinism and many find things like Total Depravity, to which Arminianism holds, to be unbiblical and unhistorical(from the Early Church Fathers). This is why the title of this Forum does not represent many that are not on the Calvin/Arminian side of things.

None of those are biblical though in regards to Sotierology

 

[atpollard]

Thank you for this. Since I have a moment, I just want to clarify something that you did not answer. Ephesians 1:10b-11 says:

Do you believe that God works all things after the counsel of His will? Do you believe that people on the wide path are worked there according to the counsel of God’s will? I really need to know your answer to these 2 questions before I can go further with your idea of compatibalism. I’m not trying to be tricky here, I just need to know what you believe on this issue. Please grant me some clarity

Yes. God is either "OMNI" or he is merely a "god" (like zeus or thor). So God is either the CREATOR and SUSTAINER of all that is ... or "something" exists that is beyond the control of God [which is dualism - Good and Evil as two conflicting "gods"]. So I believe that NOTHING is an accident and EVERYTHING advances God's plan.

The best example is the story of Joseph and his brothers. They wanted to KILL Joseph, but God restrained their choices. Men were allowed to go "this far and no further in their evil desires" (just like Satan attacking Job). Everyone had the freedom to do good or evil and chose according to their fallen desires. However GOD had a bigger plan at work. As Genesis 50:20 states: [NLT] "You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people." Without Joseph in Egypt, Israel would not have survived, no slavery, no Moses, no Passover ... without those, think how little reference we would have had to understand the work of the SON OF GOD (no "lamb of God" without a Passover Lamb, no "Last Supper" without a Passover Meal, etc.).

God's plan incorporated the free and evil desires of man as an integral part of what MUST happen. But God compelled evil from no one.

So, YES, I believe that God works ALL THINGS (no exceptions) after the counsel of his will.

The LORD has made everything for his own purposes,
even the wicked for a day of disaster.
- Proverbs 16:4 [NLT]

 

[atpollard]

Are you suggesting that God would not hold Himself to the standard that He holds men to?

Matthew 7:1 [NLT] "Do not judge others, and you will not be judged.
Luke 6:37 [NLT] "Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven.

Does GOD judge no one? Is there no Righteous Judgement of the wicked?
As you ask: Are you suggesting that God would not hold Himself to the standard that He holds men to?

(I say YES ... God is not a man. and the CREATOR is not bound by the rules he places on his creation. God judges and we must not.)

 

[Psalty]

None of those are biblical though in regards to Sotierology

According to Calvinist Soteriology they are not.

However, I have read through the early church father writings, and every one of the works that I have read indicate they supported Synergism of one sort of another, but not Monergism. Corporate Election is another view that although it is not Calvinist is certainly represented in orthodox Christianity.

 

[Psalty]

To confirm then, you believe that God works all things after the counsel of His will, from the foundation of the world, including that His predestined plan is that people would be on the Wide Path to destruction.

I still can’t reconcile your idea of Sovereignty with your claims of free choices. In one breath you say that God determines everything according to the council of His will, but then you say that people are free to make wicked choices. Is God sovereign over those choices or not? Is He controlling those choices or not?

Thank you for this. Since I have a moment, I just want to clarify something that you did not answer. Ephesians 1:10b-11 says:

Do you believe that God works all things after the counsel of His will? Do you believe that people on the wide path are worked there according to the counsel of God’s will? I really need to know your answer to these 2 questions before I can go further with your idea of compatibalism. I’m not trying to be tricky here, I just need to know what you believe on this issue. Please grant me some clarity

Yes. God is either "OMNI" or he is merely a "god" (like zeus or thor). So God is either the CREATOR and SUSTAINER of all that is ... or "something" exists that is beyond the control of God [which is dualism - Good and Evil as two conflicting "gods"]. So I believe that NOTHING is an accident and EVERYTHING advances God's plan.

The best example is the story of Joseph and his brothers. They wanted to KILL Joseph, but God restrained their choices. Men were allowed to go "this far and no further in their evil desires" (just like Satan attacking Job). Everyone had the freedom to do good or evil and chose according to their fallen desires. However GOD had a bigger plan at work. As Genesis 50:20 states: [NLT] "You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people." Without Joseph in Egypt, Israel would not have survived, no slavery, no Moses, no Passover ... without those, think how little reference we would have had to understand the work of the SON OF GOD (no "lamb of God" without a Passover Lamb, no "Last Supper" without a Passover Meal, etc.).

God's plan incorporated the free and evil desires of man as an integral part of what MUST happen. But God compelled evil from no one.

So, YES, I believe that God works ALL THINGS (no exceptions) after the counsel of his will.

The LORD has made everything for his own purposes,
even the wicked for a day of disaster.
- Proverbs 16:4 [NLT]

 

[Psalty]

Matthew 7:1 [NLT] "Do not judge others, and you will not be judged.
Luke 6:37 [NLT] "Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven.

Does GOD judge no one? Is there no Righteous Judgement of the wicked?
As you ask: Are you suggesting that God would not hold Himself to the standard that He holds men to?

(I say YES ... God is not a man. and the CREATOR is not bound by the rules he places on his creation. God judges and we must not.)

Two issues you have here:
1. The first problem is this is about ones role to judge, not character.
2. The second is that you selected a conditional statement. We can (and do) judge others… the problem is that we are corrupt and so are guilty ourselves. God also judges others, and He is perfect and righteous, so when He judges, He is perfectly just in His judgments. (John 8:50, James 4:12)

EDIT: Also, you never addressed this:

Regarding Partiality:
Choosing Israel to be a nation did not guarantee salvation. He chose them to be His Bride and a Holy Nation. After choosing them, He swallowed up many of them because of their sin. Are you suggesting that Choosing Israel is the same as choosing people for Salvation?

 

[atpollard]

To confirm then, you believe that God works all things after the counsel of His will, from the foundation of the world, including that His predestined plan is that people would be on the Wide Path to destruction.

Yup.
Let's rewind the story of creation to Adam and Eve in a garden NOT eating from a forbidden tree.

Who placed the tree in the garden and gave the command not to eat?
** [Was the TREE part of God's plan?]

Who placed the snake in the garden?
** [Was God Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent back then, or did that come later?]
** [Was God able to limit Satan in the Garden, or only when Satan was attacking Job?]

Now for the BIG QUESTION: Was Jesus God's PLAN A or something God created as a PLAN B when PLAN A failed?
** [If Jesus was Plan A, then GOD intended for Adam and Eve to fall as part of his plan - no fall = no savior.]

I still can’t reconcile your idea of Sovereignty with your claims of free choices. In one breath you say that God determines everything according to the council of His will, but then you say that people are free to make wicked choices. Is God sovereign over those choices or not? Is He controlling those choices or not?

Quote Genesis 50:20 from the Bible translation of your choice (except the NWT, I don't want to play JW games).
Do you believe it?
What did God DO to compel anything that Joseph's brother's did?
Did Joseph's brothers exercise free will or not?
Did everything happen according to the plan of God for GOOD?

[We can talk about it in detail if you would like. All the events that HAD to happen. All the "misfortunes" that brought Joseph to where God needed him to be. If we are going to argue against "free will", it was Joseph that was railroaded in God's plan ... and Joseph praised God for it!]

 

[atpollard]

EDIT: Also, you never addressed this:

Limited time.

I picked the parts that were "low hanging fruit" [easily answered quickly] ... then I had to run off to a meeting about building a parking deck over a Stormwater Pond.

 

[Psalty]

Limited time.

I totally understand! I greatly appreciate that you are actually answering. I am usually cranking at work, but today is slower. I’ll get to your big post but it also may be later.

May God bless your afternoon for His kingdom!

 

[atpollard]

Regarding Partiality:
Choosing Israel to be a nation did not guarantee salvation.

Irrelevant. The point was "partiality" [bias in favor of one thing or person compared with another; favoritism], so I only needed to show that God does not treat all people equally.

He chose them to be His Bride and a Holy Nation.

You sort of weaken your first point here. [just kidding]
On a serious note ... [Romans 11:4 NKJV] But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." ... GOD reserved for himself! [favoritism]

After choosing them, He swallowed up many of them because of their sin.

Yes, then as now ...

[Matthew 22:7-14 NLT]
"The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. And he said to his servants, 'The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren't worthy of the honor. Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.' So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn't wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. 'Friend,' he asked, 'how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?' But the man had no reply. Then the king said to his aides, 'Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Are you suggesting that Choosing Israel is the same as choosing people for Salvation?

Nope ... only that God does not treat all people equal.
Did you have the same opportunity to hear the GOSPEL as an oppressed minority living in rural China, or a woman living in Afghanistan?
God blessed you in a way that he did not bless them. That is just a fact.

[We won't even talk about me ... there might be women and children reading this. ]