The true church is Baptist like in doctrines and practices!
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Who is Jesus Christ's true church?
- Thread starter Hobie
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Walpole
Well-Known Member
Show me someone holding Baptist doctrines in say the year 250 in ANY of the ancient Sees of Christianity. Give me names of Baptist leaders, their writings, and archaeological evidence of their churches.
Don't spend too much time searching ---> Spoiler alert ---> It doesn't exist!
I prefer to stick to Apostolic era ,before pagan Rome distorted and ruined their theology!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
You may as well be standing there waving a giant white flag.
Ok, give me someone from the year 100.
Spoiler alert ---> They don't exist!
All of the local assemblies that the Apostles started were!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Give me evidence. Names of Baptist leaders, their writings, Councils they held, dialogues they had with the Catholics, archaeological sites, tombs of their dead, names of their martyrs, epithets, artwork, liturgical writings, etc.
Give me something...anything!
Acts!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Ok, let's look at Acts. If I wanted to jump on a plane and visit an archaeological site of a Baptist church from the first century in say Ephesus, Veria (Berea), or Rome, where would I find it?
For example, the oldest Christian Church in Rome is a domus ecclesiae named Santa Pudenziana. It belonged to St. Pudens (cf. 2 Tim 4:21), who was the son of the Roman senator Quintus Cornelius Pudens and St. Priscilla, two of Rome's earliest converts. The church served as the church for all the bishops of Rome (popes) from the time Christianity arrived in the first century until the Lateran Basilica was completed and dedicated in the fourth century. It contains some of Rome's earliest Christian mosaics and even has a section of the original altar used by the early Christians to celebrate Mass. The current church has been built on top of the original, but you can still descend to the lower levels to see the first century church.
Santa Pudenziana - Wikipedia
Or, located near the great bend of the River Tiber, the Church of San Paolo alla Regola stands on the home used by St. Paul, whereby he remained in custodia militaris. (cf. Acts 28:16). The Apostle's lodging was located in a densely populated area of Jews, many of whom were tanners. (Rome's synagogue is nearby.) As you enter the Church, there is a beautiful inscription reminding the pilgrim of the historical significance of what's inside, Divi Pauli Apostoli Ospitium et Schola, the Lodging and School of the Apostle St Paul. The small chapel inside the Church is built on the exact spot where the Apostle penned his captivity epistles. There is a beautiful mosaic of the Apostle with his chains above a simple altar where the early Christians celebrated Mass.
Where can I find archaeological sites such as these of a Baptist church antiquity?
Spoiler alert ---> IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!
-="I will build My Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".He promised that His Church could never be destroyed.=-
If you picture a fortress church with demons outside scratching at its impregnable steel. You need to read it again slowly.
Maybe someone familiar with siege warfare can explain gates are not offensive weapons, unless its some complex battering ram or engine. What this is saying the CHURCH is on the OFFENSIVE attacking hell itself, Thus the old adage "hell is locked from the inside". Its saying one hell will not prevent the church from bursting the gates of hell open to free the souls there.
Jesus said they called him Beelzebub prince of demons. And he said they would call his church worst things.
Matthew 10
24“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25“It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!
No body calls SDA in league with devil. So the way I see it, Your disqualified. Catholics are the only one's called in league with the devil, worshiping mary, worshiping popes, worshiping the devil.
Never heard of any other church so demonized..... and when I asked Catholics what they think of the other denominations....."brothers and sisters in Christ"
The catholic aren't swinging back. God loves an underdog and so do I.
The NT term for Bishops are same as for elders and pastors so no Papacy in the Bible, that is totally manmade up!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Ok, for the sake of argument, let's say you are right and that there are no bishops or popes in the Bible. Now back to the question on the table that you completed dodged...
Ok, let's look at Acts. If I wanted to jump on a plane and visit an archaeological site of a Baptist church from the first century in say Ephesus, Veria (Berea), or Rome, where would I find it?
For example, the oldest Christian Church in Rome is a domus ecclesiae named Santa Pudenziana. It belonged to St. Pudens (cf. 2 Tim 4:21), who was the son of the Roman senator Quintus Cornelius Pudens and St. Priscilla, two of Rome's earliest converts. The church served as the church for all the bishops of Rome (popes) from the time Christianity arrived in the first century until the Lateran Basilica was completed and dedicated in the fourth century. It contains some of Rome's earliest Christian mosaics and even has a section of the original altar used by the early Christians to celebrate Mass. The current church has been built on top of the original, but you can still descend to the lower levels to see the first century church.
Santa Pudenziana - Wikipedia
Or, located near the great bend of the River Tiber, the Church of San Paolo alla Regola stands on the home used by St. Paul, whereby he remained in custodia militaris. (cf. Acts 28:16). The Apostle's lodging was located in a densely populated area of Jews, many of whom were tanners. (Rome's synagogue is nearby.) As you enter the Church, there is a beautiful inscription reminding the pilgrim of the historical significance of what's inside, Divi Pauli Apostoli Ospitium et Schola, the Lodging and School of the Apostle St Paul. The small chapel inside the Church is built on the exact spot where the Apostle penned his captivity epistles. There is a beautiful mosaic of the Apostle with his chains above a simple altar where the early Christians celebrated Mass.
Where can I find archaeological sites such as these of a Baptist church antiquity?
They would be meeting below ground, local cell groups, where they prayed and worshipped and heard Apostolic teaching!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Ok, great. Now give me those pesky and stubborn things we call facts and evidence! If I went to Ephesus, Veria (Berea) or Rome, where is a first century Baptist church?
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Here is a few verses to go over from a good source....
(9) Sabbath
We believe that the Sabbath of the Bible, the seventh day of the week, is sacred time, a gift of God to all people, instituted at creation, affirmed in the Ten Commandments and reaffirmed in the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles. We believe that the gift of Sabbath rest is an experience of God’s eternal presence with His people. We believe that in obedience to God and in loving response to His grace in Christ, the Sabbath should be faithfully observed as a day of rest, worship, and celebration. Genesis 2:2-3
; Exodus 16:23-30
; Exodus 20:8-11
; Matthew 5:17-19
; Mark 2:27-28
; Luke 4:16
; Acts 13:14
, 42-44
; 16:11-13
; 17:2-3
; 18:4-11
; Ezekiel 20:19-20
; Hebrews 4:9-10
; John 14:15
; Isaiah 58:13-14
; Luke 23:56
......Statement of Belief
Here is a few verses to go over from a good source....
(9) Sabbath
We believe that the Sabbath of the Bible, the seventh day of the week, is sacred time, a gift of God to all people, instituted at creation, affirmed in the Ten Commandments and reaffirmed in the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles. We believe that the gift of Sabbath rest is an experience of God’s eternal presence with His people. We believe that in obedience to God and in loving response to His grace in Christ, the Sabbath should be faithfully observed as a day of rest, worship, and celebration. Genesis 2:2-3
Statement of Belief
No you don't, because if you did you would worship on the day all Christians have been worshipping on since the Apostles proclaimed Sunday the day of worship for Christians.
Nonsense. As the Christian Church evolved the faithful built churches with altars. Baptist churches do not have altars.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Like this from one of the oldest churches in Antioch, where the first followers of Jesus were called Christians...
---> Restoring the Ancient Cave Church of St. Peter
---> Church of Saint Peter - Wikipedia
Contains an altar and even ancient frescos. Clearly they weren't Baptists!
Some Baptists make the claim to justify themselves today, like they were the first ones on the block.
According to the Baptist History and Heritage Society in their article called Baptist Beginnings, they write: "Our best historical evidence says that Baptists came into existence in England in the early seventeenth century. They apparently emerged out of the Puritan-Separatist movement in the Church of England".
"On the other hand, the historical evidence clearly states that Baptists originated, as a distinct denomination, in the early seventeenth century. "How does one harmonize the sense of continuity from Bible times with the factual reality of more recent beginnings"?
"Some have so emphasized the sense of continuity from Bible times that they find it difficult to face up to historical facts about Baptist origins. Some have even erected elaborate schemes, or “Trails of Blood,” seeking to trace Baptists through all the centuries from Christ to the present".
"These theories are based upon assumptions, unreliable or nonexistent historical data, or faulty interpretation of Jesus’ promise that the gates of death should never prevail against his church. A Baptist today can have a real sense of identification with the teachings of Christ without trying to prove historical succession".
mailmandan
Active Member
The true church (Colossians 1:18,24) is made up of all genuine born again Christians who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and is not merely a church building with a name stamped on it. If Jesus Christ returned today to gather His church, He would gather all genuine BELIEVERS, regardless of where they attended church.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Very true. Sadly, they have to re-write history to what they wish it had been.
Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic. We can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of their opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first.
There is a reason why Evangelicals can never put forth such evidence when asked for it: Because it did not exist until men (and women) invented it some 1500 years later.
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