Who is our brother

"I think I see what I think you are trying to say. Yes, I agree that salvation is by faith alone, but the believing part does not put the focus on self, it is just that we have to make the choice ourself. God has given us proof that we are sinners, He has shown us what that penalty is, and He has given His Son to pay for our sins. Now the choice is ours, he gives us the grace, but if we don't accept it, he won't force us. The choice is ours to accept or reject it. I think it is the word belief that causes the confusion. We have to realize it is not just an intellectual belief, but both intellect and heart. You can't just say it's true, it has to be a belief that changes the heart. Once you are willing to submit to God, then he sheds his grace upon us."

I have to disagree. We don't choose to be saved. This goes against divine election. God gives us the faith we need to believe and we than either choose to passively accept it or directly reject it. We cannot choose God.

So am I saying that we are saved before we say some kind of sinners prayer or "accept Christ into our life"? Yes.

The following page on my website gives scripture and clear reasoning why this is so.

Look forward to hearing from you!

Until next Post, Adam

 

ROFLOL!!! Oh dear- maybe i'm showing my age?!

Actually I just went to look and the essay i'm refering to is the one that i said i didn't have up yet. i have to start working soon so I will get it up as soon as I get home.

I tend not to plaster my essays with scripture. After I do the study I need to I choose one or two scripture passages which sum up what I have found and focus on those. I try to also end the some of the essays with scripture that I believe people may use to contradict my point and explain those (my eternal security essay reflects this well).

I find that people respond to this better because I am able to use scripture and make a more well rounded and well thought out argument in a short easier to read amount of space., instead of 10 or 20 scripture passages and only a short amount of explaination.

Anyways, like I said, i'll get it up tonight so we can continue this wonderful conversation.

Until Next Post, Adam

 

"Ok, I know we don't choose God, but God does not force us to accept His gift does he?

no

Do we have no free will?

Only in that we can passively accept His gift to us or directly reject it (more coming on this)

If not then why doesn't He just make everyone accept that gift?"

Because it is not in His nature to do that. He doesn't want to force anything on us, he loves us to much. And in His perfect love he gives us the *freedom* to choose no to His gift.

Interesting paradox isn't- free will and divine election- now that would make a *long* thread if it hasn't already (i recall one on it).

Until next post (tonight), Adam

 

Haven't read all of the posts; don't have time.

Please allow me to attempt to boil this down to the nutshell:

Chet, are they unsaved or unlearned?

I teach the teens a lesson on dressing modestly; until they hear it from me, the only thing 90% of them know is what their parents tell them ("because I said!") or their pastor ("it's biblical.") It's not until a 'teaching' pastor or myself gets hold of them that they can actually look in the scriptures and find support for the position.

Until then, they dress the way they want because they don't know any better ("because I said" isn't a good enough answer).

Just something for you to chew on, Chet. You know, Paul did tell us "why is some other man judging my liberty in Christ?"

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
".....
I have to disagree. We don't choose to be saved. This goes against divine election. God gives us the faith we need to believe and we than either choose to passively accept it or directly reject it. We cannot choose God.

So am I saying that we are saved before we say some kind of sinners prayer or "accept Christ into our life"? Yes.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adam,
You are kind of mixing and matching your beliefs here. You are presenting a Calvinist view of election but a non-Calvinist view of irresistible grace. In the Calvinist view, those elected by God are not going to resist that call.

Karen

 

Hi Karen, I don't put any faith in calvinism or any other view. I believe in the Bible. I am not a Calvinist or Baptist. I am a Christian that happens to agree with many of the Baptist views and disagrees with some. I admit I am still learning, and probably will my whole life, this is what I believe right now, and what I will believe until the Holy Spirit convicts me that I am not holding to the Truth of the Bible. Thank you for your input

Lorelei- I'm trying HARD to get the essay I said I would get up up. I've been doing homework since this yesterday afternoon so I apologize for the wait!

Until Next Post, Adam

 

Don said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Haven't read all of the posts; don't have time. Please allow me to
attempt to boil this down to the nutshell: Chet, are they unsaved or unlearned?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Don. I agree, it should be boiled down to a nutshell. And that is, are they saved
or unlearned. Two things, who are they and what is their belief. This topic has taken a bit of a turn and has escalated in a discussion on Salvation. Maybe it is
relevant to do that. I will again attempt to answer your question throughout this
post. You pointed out that Paul said we had certain liberties in Christ. While this is
true, it does not at all mean we have liberties to believe in false doctrines. Nor
does it mean we are to sit by and let people continue to believe in it, or allow them to teach it. We should try to warn them of it. Liberties in Christ does not mean
liberties in believing whatever we want. There is only one truth.

Flyfree, we are in a complete disagreement on the intellectual aspect of Salvation.
That part of the discussion should probably be left to another thread. We agree that Salvation is free, and is given to us through faith. Because of Gods grace, and
mercy. But we have to believe in the right God. And we have to believe it is a free
gift.

Lorelei said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I guess I figured this scenario could happen. A person comes to a
point in their life where they realize they want something more. They pray to God and say
they want to follow Him. They then get a Bible and go to church. In their ignorance they could easily be misled to think that the gift was not finished until they were baptized, so they get baptized. Was their faith and commitment not real because in their weak faith and ignorance they didn't know? If it was real, at what point does ignorance and immaturity stop being an excuse for remaining in the false doctrine?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good questions. Ignorance or lost? Let me ask this question to everyone. Why do we assume that this person was ever saved at all? If they come to a point where they question, “just how much works do I need, baptism, giving, confession, mass, speak in tongues, ect...” Then the chances are they have not trusted in the gospel that is taught in the Bible. They have misplaced dependency upon themselves, not on Christ. Yes ignorance in certain areas of theology do fall into the guidelines of being saved but ignorant. Ignorance in things like
*Salvation, *Trinity, *Jesus a god or The God or just a man, *Works vs. no works.
*Final Authority being the church/pope, or the inerrant Bible *Believing the Bible is
inerrant or errant, *Speaking on tongues, and all other spiritual activities. And there are more I am sure. These are things we look at to determine if someone is lost or saved. If I said, Mormons are lost or JWs are lost, or Islamic people are lost, or Buddhist are lost, usually there is not a question. But when we question Catholicism -then things start to get more heated, Or Pentecostalism then the names like unloving and judgmental start to fly.

When I say that there may be a few in a Catholic Church or Pentecostal Church who is
saved I do mean few. Their teachings are more than just a little off, it is down right blasphemy. The first thing you see when you walk into a cathedral is an image of Jesus on a Cross! That should make us want to vomit right there on the spot. From the Holy water, prayers to Mary and other Saints, confessions to a man, and giving homage to the Church over the Bible! This should be as obvious as the nose on our faces. We should automatically know that these are a bunch of heretics, one of the largest cults in the world. And we want to just claim that they are simply ignorant? Its more than that. Then there is Pentecostalism. They do range in degree, but they are all generally the same. Some deny the God we serve by dening the great Godhead, the trinity. Most of them believe in a works Salvation, and that we have to maintain that salvation by continuing in good works. That is not the Gospel that Paul preached. Most believe that in order to prove you have been saved you have to speak in tongues. Well, what in the world is happening to that person when they are speaking in tongues? What is happening when those people are completely drunk and claim its from the Spirit? Your not Pentecostal if you don’t believe in some sort of supernatural gift. What is behind this
supernatural gift? Its certainly not God. That I can say without doubt because that is
what the Bible teaches. So it is either, one they are faking it. two they are under an altered state of conscience, and if that is so then their mind is not being controlled by the Sprit of God. three they are possessed by demons. And if that is so, then they are for sure lost. Anything as SPIRITUAL as what the Charismatics believe is probably worse than what we see in a Catholic Church. It goes into the realm of demoniac activity. About 8 months ago my wife was invited to a church in St. Louis. To make a long story as short as one line, she was obligated to go. Of course I went with her. This church had the name Baptist on the sign, but believe me it was not Baptist! (even the name Baptist does not guarantee saved people are inside). It was as Pentecostal as you could get. I felt like we were in a full blown cult. Women were on the floor shaking all over the place, the preacher went nuts, I counted 7 people speaking gibberish, and 2 people had to be carried out of the church by the men because they passed out! Do I think there were a bunch of unsaved people in there, you better believe it!

We must look at fruits, and the fruits of anybody or group of people that demonstrate the above are not my brothers/sisters, but people who need to hear the Gospel. And when we talk about individual fruits, this is one of my test: I start talking Scripture. If they want to discuss Scripture that is a good sign. If they want to change the subject, that is a bad sign. If the subject moves toward Acts 2, that is a real bad sign. And talk about ignorance they are usually that, ignorant. Ignorant of anything in the Bible.

Please understand also I am not talking about a person who is a baby Christian. Someone who is a newly born again. There really isn’t even a fine line. A newborn Christian does not produce fruits demonstrated above. They are just about to learn how wrong it is.

With love,

Chet

 

"Let me ask this question to everyone. Why do we assume that this person was ever saved at all?"

Romans 10:13

Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Yes Chet, It's probably a good idea that we break this conversation off unto another thread. I will create one tonight.

Until Next Post, Adam

 

Lorelei-

About that link..eh...um...well I kindof hadn't read the essay in quite some time and well...it just proves how our beliefs as young people can change quite quickly as we grow in the Lord...needless to say I better not post it because it no longer is a reflection of my beliefs

I apologize!!!!

Until Next Post, Adam