The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Facts not in evidence.
You are outside the scope of the discussion of Luke 8
The Archangel
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Facts not in evidence.
You are outside the scope of the discussion of Luke 8
The Archangel
No I'm not. You have to first believe to receive wisdom. When Jesus told the parable of the sower, did the disciples understand it at first? NO.
Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
But they believed. They did not understand what Jesus was saying, but they knew whatever Jesus taught was good and valuable. Therefore they sought after Jesus and ASKED him to explain the meaning of his parable. This is EXACTLY what James 1:5-7 is discussing, receiving wisdom to understand God's word. Because they persisted when other men turned away and asked for wisdom, Jesus gave it to them.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Hermeneutical/Exegetical Lesson #1
Don't forget to ask what "therefore" is there for.
Therefore, the conjunction ουν in this case, harkens back to what came before. So, this verse doesn't exist in a vacuum.
What did Paul say before?
[23] When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. [24] And some were convinced by what he said, but others disbelieved. [25] And disagreeing among themselves, they departed after Paul had made one statement: “The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:
[26] “‘Go to this people, and say,
“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
[27] For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed;
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.'(Acts 28:23-27 ESV)
To whom was it said? To the Jews.[26] “‘Go to this people, and say,
“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
[27] For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed;
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.'(Acts 28:23-27 ESV)
You cannot be right that having simple auditory organs makes one able to "hear." Why? Because in v. 24 we see some Jews were heard and believed and others heard and didn't believe. Therefore, having ears does not by itself enable one to "hear."
Secondly, the OT quote (from Isaiah 6) shows that these people do, in fact, have ears and they can hear...but, having ears they cannot hear.
As the quote itself says, one can hear and never understand.
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Nope. The discussion is about the text of Luke 8 and your insistence that Jesus is saying that having ears alone enables one to hear. That is the scope. Your interpretation that v. 18 means that the person(s) in the parable can--in and of themselves--hear with understanding is false. That is the scope of the discussion. Do not obfuscate in an attempt to flee the truth which shows your error.
The Archangel
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:He is demonstrating the text.
A simple reading of the verse refers to being willing to listen. You have to insert a Calvinist lens to interpret it the way that you are.
In Matt 11 Jesus is rebuking people for not listening to and believing John the Baptist.
Matt 11
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Jesus is clearly talking about being willing to listen to not only Him but the prophets as well.
You are correct Amy, Calvinism can only survive by redefining words.
Matt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Calvinists love vs. 14 because it could be understood to mean these persons are UNABLE to hear or see, but vs. 15 makes it clear that these persons are willingly dull to hear and THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED. Jesus was in no way saying these persons were unable to see or hear, he was saying they were unwilling.
psalms109:31
Active Member
God did hide the truth from them, because of their pride and also for what Romans eleven passage I am about to give says. We have been taught what we have been taught from the days of Moses and some capenter isn't going to tell us we are wrong. We are no brood of viper or keeping the key knowlege of the truth from those who are trying to enter. They were listen not to learn, but to trip Him up. Jesus even showed a prophesy being fullfilled Isaiah 6:9,10 by it.
Romans 11:
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Hebrews 3:
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Jude 1:
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus ] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
2 Corinthians 3:
13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[Or reflect] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Romans 11:
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Hebrews 3:
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Jude 1:
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus ] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
2 Corinthians 3:
13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[Or reflect] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
No. The Luke 8 text demonstrates both an ability to listen and an inability to listen. As I Calvinist, I'm very comfortable saying that this text does not in and of itself go into detail telling how one group is able to listen and the other group is not. It is alluded to, but not spelled-out.
We, as Calvinists, have to go elsewhere to determine the specifics of why some can hear and others can't. But, like the Matthew 11 passage you referred to, those are facts not in evidence here in this discussion.
There is a clear difference between what the text says and what the text means. This is not to say it says one thing and means another.
Jesus clearly tells His disciples "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God." The implication is that to some it has not been given. Jesus even says so in the very next clause: "but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand."
This text is quite clear: There are those who know the secrets of the kingdom and there are those that don't. How do those who are in the know know what they know? Did they discover it on their own? No, it has been given to them (signified by the Passive verb, meaning that those who know did not act themselves to come into the know).
This text also draws a clear distinction between hearing and understanding. Everyone hears (with the exception of the deaf, but the text isn't discussing that issue); not everyone understands.
Just because someone hears is no guarantee that they will understand. And, if they do understand, that ability has come from outside themselves.
The text does not mention anything about willingness; it is talking about ability.
I know you want this verse to mean that some are willing and some are not (in and of themselves). But, the text does not say that. And, no matter how much we want the text to mean what we want it to mean, it cannot mean that which is clearly opposite of what the text says.
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Even though this is not germane to our discussion, I did want to address this passage.
The text is not saying everyone is willing to hear. Jesus is talking about John the Baptist's role as that of Elijah. He's saying "those of you who are willing to accept that John the Baptist is Elijah, believe it, accept it, etc.
This particular passage is not a statement of global willingness or a universal ability to hear.
The Archangel
Archangel is correct about the ears to hear passage. Jesus is speaking about hearing within and doing what he says not just simply hearing and understanding in physical terms.
Id like to see skandelon chime in here from a non calvinistic perspective. If im not mistaken he understands the spiritual tone but applies it only to judicial hardening of the jews. I hope we can at least agree on a basic level that jesus was talking about the fathers giving ears to hear to a select number of people.
In simple terms, when jesus spoke everyone heard and maybe even understood pn a basic level. Only a few understand and heed his message to the level given His disciples.
Id like to see skandelon chime in here from a non calvinistic perspective. If im not mistaken he understands the spiritual tone but applies it only to judicial hardening of the jews. I hope we can at least agree on a basic level that jesus was talking about the fathers giving ears to hear to a select number of people.
In simple terms, when jesus spoke everyone heard and maybe even understood pn a basic level. Only a few understand and heed his message to the level given His disciples.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Yes, what I believe many people fail to see is that while Jesus was on earth his goal wasn't to convince as many people to believe in him as possible. In fact, it seemed to be quite the opposite. He hid the truth in parables revealing the mysteries only to a select few that the father had given to him. The rest of Israel was being temporarily hardened/blinded in their already rebellious condition. Why? They won't crucify him if they believe in him. This is why Jesus says that no one can come to him unless it has been granted by the Father.
The Jews of that day didn't 'have ears to hear' because they were hardened to the revelation of God, "Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!" (Acts 28:27-28)
convicted1
Guest
The difficulty with the ears and dirt
The question isn't so much that prepared ground had ears.
Who was responsible for the preparation of the ground? The ground certainly could not prepare itself. And clearly the parable speaks that the ground did hear.
So again, who is ultimately responsible for the preparation and assignment of the dirt (that is what is to be a road, path, ditch, or plowed fertilized field)?
Is it not the "lord of the harvest" or that is the owner of the land? If it is, then the dirt merely fulfills the purpose that was predetermined.
If not, then who is responsible for the dirt?
The question isn't so much that prepared ground had ears.
Who was responsible for the preparation of the ground? The ground certainly could not prepare itself. And clearly the parable speaks that the ground did hear.
So again, who is ultimately responsible for the preparation and assignment of the dirt (that is what is to be a road, path, ditch, or plowed fertilized field)?
Is it not the "lord of the harvest" or that is the owner of the land? If it is, then the dirt merely fulfills the purpose that was predetermined.
If not, then who is responsible for the dirt?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Genesis 3:
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
We want to agree with one side of the fall not another.
God started with the first fruit including Paul to spread His hope that can only be found in Jesus and the Master Farmer is in us who believe.
Matthew 28:
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
John 7:
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[Or me. And let anyone drink who believes in me.” As Scripture has said, “Out of him (or them) will flow rivers of living water.”] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”
2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or be a sin offering] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
1 Thessalonians 1:
Thanksgiving for the Thessalonians’ Faith
2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. 3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers and sisters[The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in 2:1, 9, 14, 17; 3:7; 4:1, 10, 13; 5:1, 4, 12, 14, 25, 27.] loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7 And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, 9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
Romans 7:
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
We want to agree with one side of the fall not another.
God started with the first fruit including Paul to spread His hope that can only be found in Jesus and the Master Farmer is in us who believe.
Matthew 28:
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
John 7:
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[Or me. And let anyone drink who believes in me.” As Scripture has said, “Out of him (or them) will flow rivers of living water.”] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Mark 6:11
And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”
2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or be a sin offering] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
1 Thessalonians 1:
Thanksgiving for the Thessalonians’ Faith
2 We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. 3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers and sisters[The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in 2:1, 9, 14, 17; 3:7; 4:1, 10, 13; 5:1, 4, 12, 14, 25, 27.] loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7 And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, 9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
Romans 7:
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
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The question isn't so much that prepared ground had ears.
Who was responsible for the preparation of the ground? The ground certainly could not prepare itself. And clearly the parable speaks that the ground did hear.
So again, who is ultimately responsible for the preparation and assignment of the dirt (that is what is to be a road, path, ditch, or plowed fertilized field)?
Is it not the "lord of the harvest" or that is the owner of the land? If it is, then the dirt merely fulfills the purpose that was predetermined.
If not, then who is responsible for the dirt?
Answer
The Holy Spirit;
In my own Salvation it took years of preparation. I was raised by Christians who preached the gospel to me nearly every day until at the age of 14 I surrendered to Christ. All that preaching plowed the soil and fertilized it making it ready to believe. I call it being convinced. We do not convince our selves. Once convinced then comes conviction another work of the Lord. My surrender was giving up the rebellion. A choice every Christian has to make. I did not choose Christ, He chose me. He convinced me through the preaching of others. He then convicted me to the very core of my self by showing me my sin. I could no longer escape the conviction. It was on my mind until I surrendered. I’m so glad I gave up the rebellion. This was all God’s plan and it is He that is completely responsible for my Salvation. I claim no responsibility because even my surrender could not have happened with out the work of the Holy Spirit.
MB
I would assume, by your statement, that it then falls to God to determine the purpose of the dirt. That in fact, though the seed is delivered to all as Christ said it would, not all are purposed to bearing seed to fruit, that the purposed will of God be fulfilled.
What is the work of the Holy Spirit that prepares a person for receiving the word of God?
What is the work of the Holy Spirit that prepares a person for receiving the word of God?