Who is Satan in this passage?

[Allan]

I agree Bob this can most definately be the case, and think in the vast majority it is.

I was merely showing that according to scripture Satan 'can' still go unto the Mount of God and be before the Lord if so permitted.

Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
--- This is his yet future judgment as he is displayed before the kings as vanquished---

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
--- This is yet future as it refers Satan who accuses the 'brethren' (Christians) BEFORE God---

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan,

So you contend that Cain was sinless up to this point and that the sin nature in which we all share is was not attributed to Cain??

Again you read into what I said. I do not recall saying this. What I do know is that each time someone sinned and God was around, the sinner left. Adam left the gardan, Eve left the garden, after they sinned. Cain left the face of God when he sinned. Satan left the high plan in which he once was after he sinned. I see a trend here...do you?

A lie in the eyes of God is no different than murder because to God sin is sin. So even if Cain did not kill his brother he stood in the eyes of God a sinner, and unholy.
Sin is all around God in the sense that God is everywhere and all things are before His eyes.

See above post.

God has never liked sin but God uses it for His glory (as you state quite frequently). So if God hates it so much why use it and not cast it out??

Come now...God does hate sin. God has never made an attempt to conceal the fact of His wrath toward sin. Ever heard of the great flood? Ever heard of hell? What about those cities where lot lived...why were they hit with fire from above?

Deuteronomy 32:39-41
"See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand. I lift my hand to heaven and declare: As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me."

Psalm 7:11
"God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day."

Romans 1:18
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness."

God's wrath "… was revealed when the sentence of death was first pronounced, the earth cursed, and man driven out of the earthly paradise; and afterwards by such examples of punishment as those of the Deluge and the destruction of the Cities of the Plain by fire from heaven; but especially by the reign of death throughout the world." (A. W. Pink)

Psalm 130:3 "If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?"

All things are before God, and that which God allows before him whether fallen or not is by His permission and lest we forget God decreed that sin will be and thereby He knew where it would come from and go to.

Indeed. I never said God did not know. Surely you know what I believe about Gods degees. As a matter of fact this is the point I'm trying to make, if you would just slow down a bit and drop you perset ways you may see this. Not that you have to agree. You are just way off track on what I'm asking others to consider.

I believe I can establish it was the 3rd Heaven (Gods abode) and that Satan known then as Lucifer was one of the the Covering Cherubs which is equated with Gods throne.

Well, it very well could be. My post was just to show what happened after sin. They were cast out.

Note all that God 'will' (future tense) do to Satan in his final judment, including casting him from the mount of God, and laying him before the kings.
Now look and see that all the sin Satan did was in the past tense, (italics) so though he had sinned and was IN his sin yet God says he is not yet cast down completely from the mount of God nor is he yet set before the kings as a vanquished foe. Yes Satan was cast from heaven but not from be allowed back and forth as God permits - such as the time when the sons of God presented themselves before the Lord. He can not come and go before God at will but according to Gods own words Satan is not yet cast from the mount of God completely. Jesus watched Lucifer fall from heaven but this does not mean Satan can not come before God as God permits.

He was not the Devil but was being used by him and the attributes of Satan correlated and were personified in the King (Prince) of Tyrus. So God in speaking to the King equates the same aspects of Satan and his sin to show this same picture of the King and his own pride. And just as Satan will be judged on day future so this King will to.

He will...and He Did. You place to much on the word will. Christ says...been there done that. Satan has been (past) cast from Heaven. Christ told us he saw it happen. Why? Well as it turns out God hates sin..and Satan sinned.

And what of those who are not believers. What of the elect yet saved as they to are sinners before God. Does God not have to touch them in some way to bring them unto Himself. What of those before Christ and even after as God will use sin to His glory and has even spoken to sinful man as well as been in their presence.

Christ already "touched" the elects sin. This was called the atonement. No need to take this to the C/A debate, but there are somethings we can agree on. I would hope.

Jesus was weighted down with the sins of the people … he was in awful agony, bloody sweat … His plea that there might be some other way , "Let this cup pass" …his last dreadful cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Who shall stand when the Son of God Himself so trembled beneath the weight of God's Wrath? God's Divine Wrath was revealed on the cross. God's true regard for sin was revealed in the sufferings and death of Jesus. I would say Christ hates sin..no? And then what happened?
Luke 23
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Hey this is from your arguments of God using both sinner and saint alike and that God even takes control (at times) of the sinner to do His will just as you contend God does with the Saints. (From the OP - Robots in Heaven)

I fail to see your point. I relent nothing about Gods soverignty, nor what I have said in the past about God being on the throne over His kingdom.

I have already established both in the previous posting IT IS and in this one. You fail to see what it has to do with the OP?? You asked is it the same, and I answer Yes. How is it not having anything to with the OP?? This entity is a Person and is designated by personal pronouns regarding an individual. If there is only one Devil and Satan by your own words, then who else is it refering?
Please show some support that you have establishing it being someone 'other than' Satan himself.

The word used is "adversary". In the KJV it is translated Satan.
Young Translation..
And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
We have gone over this before, and have show 2 times already where "Adversary" is not used as Satan in other passages. I am not saying you must agree, but after 3 times at this surely you now understand. So...let me ask again. KJV says this is satan, and it very well could be satan. Not another satan. If its "the satan", it is the satan. Now we got that out of the way lets reask the OP. Could the word Adversary be appled to another being other then "the one and only satan", just as it has been done in other passages?????

I never stated they could come and go as they please nor is it even infrenced in what I wrote. They can come and go as God permits, and IF God permits. Since God can be anywhere at anytime in all places at all times, I don't see it particulary NEEDFUL for them to HAVE to present themselves to God in Heaven before His throne. It 'SEEMS' it was a law??

No...what you said was the devil can come to heaven. Other Gods can come to heaven. Sin has stained the walls of heaven...as if God has no holiness. You see it your way...I see God holy.

How does this work?? James, I thought you believed in Gods soveriegnty and nothing works without Gods express permission.

Yep...I said it. Still believe it. Any time someone changes the "set rules" as you see them, does not mean other things change.

Ok then, prove they are not angels.

You cannot prove a negative. The NIV says they are angels. No other translation says this, that I know of. Now they very well could be. I do not have a problem with this. I'm just entertaining the idea that they could be another super nature being. Prove it? I can't. I'm just placing it on the table for debate. Others seem to think its something to think about. That is all I'm doing myself. You will not hear of it. No big deal.

Show some supporting evidence and not conjecture or hypothosis that they are not Angelic beings spoken of in general.

I never said they were not angelic beings as in celestrial beings. I have said it maybe a being that we do not know what to call, other then sons of God.

In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

Isa 2:3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

As long as you are in the flesh satan is there also.


Mic 4:2And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 

[Jarthur001]

And Job was wrong. He was so wrong in fact that God rebuked him for ASSUMING God did it. The whole reason Job was angry with God was he ASSUMED God unrighteously judged him as he had done nothing wrong. That is the context of what Job complaimed about.

It was this 'assumption' that God rebuked and is the very reason Job would say anything before God when Job realized he didn't have all the facts. That this was not God judging him for sin as he erroneously thought.

Do you think that whole Satan before God is a story made up to help the plot line??

Verse please. Or maybe you are talking about another Book.

For as we see in the last chapter of the book...

Job 42

1Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

2I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

3Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

4Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

5I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

6Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

7And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

And why was Job say this? Why did Job cry out... God you are in full control? Read all of the 4 chapters before this statement and you will know.



In Christ...James

PS...why would you say this?
Do you think that whole Satan before God is a story made up to help the plot line??

 

[Jarthur001]

Isa 2:3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

As long as you are in the flesh satan is there also.


Mic 4:2And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Hello Bob,

Both of these passages are talking about Jerusalem the city. Try to find a verse that says a sinner can go to heaven. I can't seem to find one.

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't think a sinner can go to the 3rd Heaven where God is. I think we are on the mountain of the Lord now, climbing upward. I think the Law has aready went forth from zion and the word of the lord from Jerusalem. I think a person can stand before God and not physically be in Heaven where God is. I don't know if that is what you all are discussing or not. Nothing unclean has ever been there or ever will.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

Not that it matters, but your list is missing a few distinctions of Angels found in the Bible.

We know there are distinctions of Angels: Cherubs, (as Satan was one of the Covering Cherubs) Cherubims, Seriphims, and...morning stars??
We see that certain angels sang and then scriptures states ALL of the sons of God shouted for joy. Here we see scripture bringing the two together.

eph 3:10 ina gnwrisqh nun taiV arcaiV kai taiV exousiaiV en toiV epouranioiV dia thV ekklhsiaV h polupoikiloV sofia tou qeou

Also read eph 6:12, 1 pet 3:22

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't think a sinner can go to the 3rd Heaven where God is. I think we are on the mountain of the Lord now, climbing upward. I think the Law has aready went forth from zion and the word of the lord from Jerusalem. I think a person can stand before God and not physically be in Heaven where God is. I don't know if that is what you all are discussing or not. Nothing unclean has ever been there or ever will.

I agree Bob. I mean...this is how I feel. This is why Job 1-3 causes a problem. I just can't see satan in Heaven after the fall. So..I see no reason why the meeting with God could not have taken place in another place then the 3rd heaven.

Thats my feeling anyway. I'm not trying to be dogmatic, just something to think about.


In Christ...James

 

[Allan]

Again you read into what I said. I do not recall saying this. What I do know is that each time someone sinned and God was around, the sinner left. Adam left the gardan, Eve left the garden, after they sinned. Cain left the face of God when he sinned. Satan left the high plan in which he once was after he sinned. I see a trend here...do you?

True you did not specifically state that but there was no other conclusion with regard to your statement. I know that God will always at some point remove and judge sin but in your construct of They did a sin and was cast out does not hold biblical verasity. Do you not think that Able sinned being a man born with a sin nature?? Or Seth, or Noah...?? They All sinned before God so why did God not cast them ALL away from Himself?? God is everywhere at ALL times James, how can a person sin when God ISN"T around. Now if you are speaking of being there in manifested presense then you have a problem as God was not 'around' when Adam and Eve sinned, nor was He there when Cain slew Able in the field. Sin is Sin is Sin before God. And yes there is a pattern as it is God placing certain judgments on certain people but not on ALL that sinned only certain ones for certain and specific reasons


[

B]Come now...God does hate sin.[/B] God has never made an attempt to conceal the fact of His wrath toward sin. Ever heard of the great flood? Ever heard of hell? What about those cities where lot lived...why were they hit with fire from above?

You know I believe God hates sin so your posting those verses was pointless. I was only conveying a simple and common truth. What about those cities who were just as sinful both then and times future, but we do not find God casting fire down upon all of them, why not?? God hates sin right??. Places like Rome for instance or Grease, America, Canada, Iran, or L.A., Washingto DC, Amsterdam, Berlin, ext... God judges sin without question but His Judgment is not always immediate nor is it always at once but spaced out till that final judgment. And yet God still deals with sinful man.

Indeed. I never said God did not know. Surely you know what I believe about Gods degees. As a matter of fact this is the point I'm trying to make, if you would just slow down a bit and drop you perset ways you may see this. Not that you have to agree. You are just way off track on what I'm asking others to consider.

You still haven't established anything TO consider. If you have answered your the Question in the OP I must have missed it and would appreciate your kindness in re-posting it and the scriptural support that establishes your contention.

Well, it very well could be. My post was just to show what happened after sin. They were cast out.

Ok, but you stated God can't be in the presence of sin, yet Lucifer was one of the Covering Angels at the Throne so that establishes him in the 3rd Heaven where he sinned before he was cast out. This was what I was trying to say

He will...and He Did. You place to much on the word will. Christ says...been there done that. Satan has been (past) cast from Heaven. Christ told us he saw it happen. Why? Well as it turns out God hates sin..and Satan sinned.
Ok, that is fine...but when in the past as Ezekiel states it is in a time future AND at THAT time it is done Satan will be cast down a vanquished enemy before the kings of the earth (Isa 12 and Ezk 34) That casting out could not have happened yet as this has never been done but will be done at the coming of Christ as these are prophesies regarding that event. But I am curious as to when you believe it happened...

I fail to see your point. I relent nothing about Gods soverignty, nor what I have said in the past about God being on the throne over His kingdom.

Ok, I see here your point on this with the elect, but the other part I was bring up is that you also contend God uses and controls the sinner as well as the saint. I was wondering how God can use and control them too, since God hates sin and sin can't be in Gods presense. - I think that was what I was wanting to know...

The word used is "adversary". In the KJV it is translated Satan.
Young Translation..
And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
We have gone over this before, and have show 2 times already where "Adversary" is not used as Satan in other passages. I am not saying you must agree, but after 3 times at this surely you now understand. So...let me ask again. KJV says this is satan, and it very well could be satan. Not another satan. If its "the satan", it is the satan. Now we got that out of the way lets reask the OP. Could the word Adversary be appled to another being other then "the one and only satan", just as it has been done in other passages?????

Yes you did show the word used in two other passages but they never were discribing a person but and action. The passage you state for Job say even in the Youngs Translation "...there doth come also "THE" Adversary..." denoting him being the 'one and only' (THE) Adversary and not 'an' or 'another'. Note the Capitilization of the word "Adversary" as is done with Personal pronouns. I just have seen no proof for you that it can possibly be someone or thing else is all.

No...what you said was the devil can come to heaven. Other Gods can come to heaven. Sin has stained the walls of heaven...as if God has no holiness. You see it your way...I see God holy

God is Holy because God can not and will not sin not because of where He dwells. Sin WAS in heaven as that is where Lucifer sinned and I showed the scriptural suppor for this from Eze 34. And yes the Devil could or even can (IMO and established this fact with scripture) go into the 3rd Heaven and if God permits the 'g'ods to come then they will according to His commands.
I have yet to see you bring forth scripture that refutes it other than God is Holy to which I do not dispute. But if God is soveriegn He can permit what ever is His pleasure or purpose or plan, agreed??

Yep...I said it. Still believe it. Any time someone changes the "set rules" as you see them, does not mean other things change.

Still waiting on you to show your 'set rules' scripturally. Till then it is still just postulation and assumption.

You cannot prove a negative. The NIV says they are angels. No other translation says this, that I know of. Now they very well could be. I do not have a problem with this. I'm just entertaining the idea that they could be another super nature being. Prove it? I can't. I'm just placing it on the table for debate. Others seem to think its something to think about. That is all I'm doing myself. You will not hear of it. No big deal

It is fine to 'think' it could be, or maybe, quite possibly... but I also showed where scripture tends to bring both the Angels (stars of the morning) and ALL the Son's of God... Together. Maybe this will be of Note. The Angels are refered to as Stars and particularly in Job a group of stars sang [star of the morning] Now Satan was also called the "son" of the morning in Isa 14. Is it not and odd instance that He is both equated with the terms 'Stars' and 'Sons' just as Job bring them together as well.

SIde bar concerning this:
And is Jesus not called in Rev The Bright and Morning Star. Now we know Jesus is not an Angel but this discription is concerning the Bright, exhaulted Majesty of His Glory. However it is hard to just lightly dismiss an interesting note here of Satan called the Son of the Morning and was a covering Angel of the Throne, and that specific group of Angels in Job called the Morning Stars - could these be a group of angels specifically centered on or around Christ Jesus on His Eternal Throne? (that is just a thought)

 

[Allan]

Verse please.

It is the very verses you are about to quote...

For as we see in the last chapter of the book...

Job 42

1Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

2I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

3Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

4Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

5I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

6Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

7And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

And why was Job say this? Why did Job cry out... God you are in full control? Read all of the 4 chapters before this statement and you will know.

He cried out because God knows all things an in that knowing all He does is Just even if we don't know why it is happening. But Job was not right either for we see this in verse 9

So Eliphaz the Temanite an Bidad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the Lord commanded them: The Lord also accepted Job

Remember (vs 8) they were to go to Job and sacrifice rams and have Job pray for them that they might be accepted of the Lord due to their sin... and in verse 9 we see Job ALSO is accepted. We see Job finally begin to break in Ch 29-31 but more specifically in 30 and 31.

PS...why would you say this?
Do you think that whole Satan before God is a story made up to help the plot line??

Actually, when I re-read it I couldn't think of any good reason for to be there in all honesty. Sorry about that. Maybe I was thinking of something else there but I can't recall for what purpose I placed it there.

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan,

Not that it matters, but your list is missing a few distinctions of Angels found in the Bible.



eph 3:10 ina gnwrisqh nun taiV arcaiV kai taiV exousiaiV en toiV epouranioiV dia thV ekklhsiaV h polupoikiloV sofia tou qeou

Also read eph 6:12, 1 pet 3:22

True, but I wasn't giving an exhaustive listing either.

 

[Jarthur001]

True, but I wasn't giving an exhaustive listing either.

Hello Allan,

I have had a long day, but I will reply in the morning, Lord willing. This will give you a day off too. I spent all my free time or another thread, and I did not want to give you a puff cake post.



In Christ...James

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan,

I have had a long day, but I will reply in the morning, Lord willing. This will give you a day off too. I spent all my free time or another thread, and I did not want to give you a puff cake post.



In Christ...James

Puff Cake sounds good right about now, I'm hungry!!
Anyhoo, that is ok as it doesn't matter really because it is not an important matter to actually have to substantiate... That said - However ... :laugh: Just kidding!

I do understand what you are getting at conserning the Sons of God and that though they ARE Angelic beings by nature they are NOT specifically identified as to what type or catagory or if it is a reference of the them as a whole. (I think the whole personally but that is due to 'one' specific verse - there are few times in scripture we should hang our hat on one verse)

I still think Satan is Satan there in Job however but that issue really is like step 8 on the 10 step ladder of importance concerning the Book of Job as it is more about God and Job.

 

[Bluefalcon]

bene haelohim (Ge 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1) refers to men.
bene elohim (Job 38:7; Ps 29:1; 89:7 [89:6 English Bible]) refers to angels.

In Job some of God's children, probably including Job himself, present themselves before God. Of course this is done on earth, just as Samuel much later commanded the people to do, i.e., present themselves before the Lord (1 Sam 10:9). Satan going out from the presence of the Lord (Job 1:12; 2:7) doesn't place him in heaven any more than does Cain going out from the presence of the Lord (Ge 4:16). In fact, of all the occurrances of "Satan" in the Hebrew Bible (Job 1:6, 7, 7, 8, 9, 12, 12; 2:1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7; Zc 3:1, 2, 2; and 1 Ch 21:1), I can find none that indicates he has access to the throne of God where angels are guarding him and crying 'Holy, holy, holy" 24/7. OT biblical references rather place Satan on earth, going to and fro, walking up and down in it, tempting the doodoo out of David, whatever. That said, extrabiblical references tell quite another story.

 

[Allan]

bene haelohim (Ge 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1) refers to men.
bene elohim (Job 38:7; Ps 29:1; 89:7 [89:6 English Bible]) refers to angels.

In Job some of God's children, probably including Job himself, present themselves before God. Of course this is done on earth, just as Samuel much later commanded the people to do, i.e., present themselves before the Lord (1 Sam 10:9). Satan going out from the presence of the Lord (Job 1:12; 2:7) doesn't place him in heaven any more than does Cain going out from the presence of the Lord (Ge 4:16). In fact, of all the occurrances of "Satan" in the Hebrew Bible (Job 1:6, 7, 7, 8, 9, 12, 12; 2:1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7; Zc 3:1, 2, 2; and 1 Ch 21:1), I can find none that indicates he has access to the throne of God where angels are guarding him and crying 'Holy, holy, holy" 24/7. OT biblical references rather place Satan on earth, going to and fro, walking up and down in it, tempting the doodoo out of David, whatever. That said, extrabiblical references tell quite another story.

Interesting opinion, Please state any extrabiblical references that have been cite ANYWHERE within this thread... Didn't think so.

I never stated Satan HAD to be in Heaven but that scripture does not preclude this but does give references to that potential. Go back and re-read my postings.

I always have to laugh when people cite the four Angels are "gaurding" the Almighty and All Powerful God. As if God must be protected. They are there to PROCLAIM His Holiness not protect it, for how can you protect what you can not maintian???

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan...

.........Snipped.... Do you not think that Able sinned being a man born with a sin nature?? Or Seth, or Noah...?? They All sinned before God so why did God not cast them ALL away from Himself?? God is everywhere at ALL times James, how can a person sin when God ISN"T around. Now if you are speaking of being there in manifested presense then you have a problem as God was not 'around' when Adam and Eve sinned, nor was He there when Cain slew Able in the field. Sin is Sin is Sin before God. And yes there is a pattern as it is God placing certain judgments on certain people but not on ALL that sinned only certain ones for certain and specific reasons

1st..thanks for some good replies.

Ok..i see 2 things here that needs addressed.

The age and everywhere.

I would take that you are dispenationlist going by your post. I would also guess by other views you hold to 7 dispenational times. This could be wrong, but I think i'm right. So then...if so. What age do we find Able?

"The Age of Conscience" it is hard to say what sin was. We do know there was sin. Murder would be one. The 1st time we see a hint of sin, is when God tells Cain..."sin is at the door". But I do not think this was sin, but rather God telling Cain that he is heading down the wrong path. Your thoughts?

Other then this, there is no revalation from God in this AGE. We do know there was sin, for in chapter 6 we are told that the earth was full of evil. Then we had the flood. 2 other things that we see here is a lot of people are born and.....get ready for this.....the other thing is....."sons of God". Hummm life is stranger then fiction. So...did Able sin? I would think so. But I do not know.

If however you are covenant, we will talk about that next time.

The 2nd thing to look at is...If God is everywhere is God in Hell? Hell is full of evil, can you picture Christ in hell? We just had a thread a week or so ago about a creed. The line..."and decended into hell"...most people do not like.

Why? Well...one reason...they cannot see Christ in hell. How do you feel about this? Did Christ go to Hell after His death? If not, can not we keep the Devil from Heaven?

What about those cities who were just as sinful both then and times future, but we do not find God casting fire down upon all of them, why not?? God hates sin right??. Places like Rome for instance or Grease, America, Canada, Iran, or L.A., Washingto DC, Amsterdam, Berlin, ext...

New Age...New Covenant

God judges sin without question but His Judgment is not always immediate nor is it always at once but spaced out till that final judgment. And yet God still deals with sinful man.

Nor is it always in this life. But always...God places sin ...away from Him.

You still haven't established anything TO consider. If you have answered your the Question in the OP I must have missed it and would appreciate your kindness in re-posting it and the scriptural support that establishes your contention.

Ok, but you stated God can't be in the presence of sin, yet Lucifer was one of the Covering Angels at the Throne so that establishes him in the 3rd Heaven where he sinned before he was cast out. This was what I was trying to say

snipped..

Yes you did show the word used in two other passages but they never were discribing a person but and action.

This is what I'm saying...

Satan sinned and is now the father of all evil. I do not see a holy God inviting evil into his house. So if you play along with me, I want you to consider something.

Lets say THE" Adversary" is not Satan at all. Yes he is a person. But what if the Sons of God are other types of angels...or angel like "beings", that carry out some task for God. As you have rightly noted, adversary was a action in those other passages I posted. But there was a "person" that undertook the action. If you check the passage guess what. It is the angel of the Lord. Humm So...could this be the same angel like "being" back in Job 1-3?

God is Holy because God can not and will not sin not because of where He dwells. Sin WAS in heaven as that is where Lucifer sinned and I showed the scriptural suppor for this from Eze 34. And yes the Devil could or even can (IMO and established this fact with scripture) go into the 3rd Heaven and if God permits the 'g'ods to come then they will according to His commands.

I do not see this Allan. Please show me a verse where the Devil goes back into the 3rd heaven. I maybe wrong, but I want to see a verse.

I have yet to see you bring forth scripture that refutes it other than God is Holy to which I do not dispute. But if God is soveriegn He can permit what ever is His pleasure or purpose or plan, agreed??

Yes...He could do it. I just would like to see it from the Bible. This is what I see. If you are in heaven ans sin....you are cast out and not invited back. Even Cain was not invited back.

Still waiting on you to show your 'set rules' scripturally. Till then it is still just postulation and assumption.

??
You had asked this...

How does this work?? James, I thought you believed in Gods soveriegnty and nothing works without Gods express permission

But you know I believe in Gods soveriengnty....so this would not change my "set rules". It may change yours.


[

B]SIde bar concerning this:[/B]
And is Jesus not called in Rev The Bright and Morning Star. Now we know Jesus is not an Angel but this discription is concerning the Bright, exhaulted Majesty of His Glory. However it is hard to just lightly dismiss an interesting note here of Satan called the Son of the Morning and was a covering Angel of the Throne, and that specific group of Angels in Job called the Morning Stars - could these be a group of angels specifically centered on or around Christ Jesus on His Eternal Throne? (that is just a thought)

[/QUOTE]

You mean the 7 Spirits? I read a good long work on this about a year ago. It had a lot of good ideas...but if I shared it..It would mess it up. The writer didn't sell me on his ideas, but nor was he trying. He was more like throw them out there. I'm not sure I can find it or not..but I will look. Maybe ironside??? But that does not sound like ironside, he hardly ever took chances. I'll look and see if I can find it.


Thanks again...


In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

It is the very verses you are about to quote...


He cried out because God knows all things an in that knowing all He does is Just even if we don't know why it is happening. But Job was not right either for we see this in verse 9


Remember (vs 8) they were to go to Job and sacrifice rams and have Job pray for them that they might be accepted of the Lord due to their sin... and in verse 9 we see Job ALSO is accepted. We see Job finally begin to break in Ch 29-31 but more specifically in 30 and 31.


Actually, when I re-read it I couldn't think of any good reason for to be there in all honesty. Sorry about that. Maybe I was thinking of something else there but I can't recall for what purpose I placed it there.

This I strongly disagree with.
Job was told by his friends...You must have done something.
Job says....No..I tell you I have not sinned.
Friends say....think Job...think....there must be some reason.
Job says...I tell you i have no idea why God did this.
Job says...God why? Show me why? I will fix it if you show me why.

God says...I do not have to show you why. I am God.
God says...did you make this Job? Did you make that Job? No Job...I made it all. Look at how powerful I am. Look at the wonders of the world. Job..I made the world. Who are you to tell me what to do?
Job says...You are right...I'm sorry.
God says...I'm mad at your friends for telling this about me.
God forgives..and all is well.

Job did not blame Satan anywhere in the book. Job knew who was in control. Job said God did it. God never at any time said Job you are wrong...that was satan. God just said..Who are you to tell me what i can and cannot do. That is the story of Job.

The book is not about Job...its about God.



In Christ...James

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan...


1st..thanks for some good replies.

Ok..i see 2 things here that needs addressed.

The age and everywhere.

I would take that you are dispenationlist going by your post. I would also guess by other views you hold to 7 dispenational times. This could be wrong, but I think i'm right. So then...if so. What age do we find Able?

"The Age of Conscience" it is hard to say what sin was. We do know there was sin. Murder would be one. The 1st time we see a hint of sin, is when God tells Cain..."sin is at the door". But I do not think this was sin, but rather God telling Cain that he is heading down the wrong path. Your thoughts?

Yes, I am a Dispensationalist. In the Age of Conscience is wasn't hard to say what sin was. God said that Adam and Eve both knew what good and evil was "like" God did. If they brought their children up in the admonition of the Lord they would HAVE to teach their children right from wrong because their children would be born doing that which IS wrong according to their 'sin nature'. I also agree that God was trying to stop Cain from going 'into' sin as that is where he was heading.

Other then this, there is no revalation from God in this AGE. We do know there was sin, for in chapter 6 we are told that the earth was full of evil. Then we had the flood. 2 other things that we see here is a lot of people are born and.....get ready for this.....the other thing is....."sons of God". Hummm life is stranger then fiction. So...did Able sin? I would think so. But I do not know.

You are correct that there is no 'scriptural' explict references regarding God giving revelation to man. But we do see it somewhat implictly. Take Cain and Able and God speaking with Cain. First, how did they know to offer anything and if anything was offered how will they know what is pleasing?
I thing Adam and Eve might have filled them in but I think God had a hand still is speaking with Man from time to time then just as He had a sit down chat with Cain. Yes the earth was full of evil and man choose to live their own way, so we know they understood a different way was there too. God saw that Noah feared the Lord and we see that God called Noah Righteous for this. He also preached Gods judgment to come on them but what good would that do if they believe what they are doing is the 'right' way. Being decendents of Adam not far removed they all knew about God and obviously what He wanted but didn't care.
The son's of God in Gen just before the flood I would agree are men without question and have stated such.

Did Able sin? Scripture state for ALL have sinned and fall short... this would seem to include Able, even Enoch (and Elijah) who were take up into heaven (which heaven... Maybe space on a planet somewhere or maybe with God)

If however you are covenant, we will talk about that next time.

Nope.

The 2nd thing to look at is...If God is everywhere is God in Hell? Hell is full of evil, can you picture Christ in hell? We just had a thread a week or so ago about a creed. The line..."and decended into hell"...most people do not like.

Why? Well...one reason...they cannot see Christ in hell. How do you feel about this? Did Christ go to Hell after His death? If not, can not we keep the Devil from Heaven?

Well, David stated that IF he go to hell God is there too. We can't keep the devil from anyplace much less heaven. But God can do as He pleases and this includes allowing whomever He commands to appear before him that they must come.

Nor is it always in this life. But always...God places sin ...away from Him.

No question but being soveriegn it also allows Him to call it before Him just as in the Great White Throne Judgment.

This is what I'm saying...

Satan sinned and is now the father of all evil. I do not see a holy God inviting evil into his house. So if you play along with me, I want you to consider something.

Lets say THE" Adversary" is not Satan at all. Yes he is a person. But what if the Sons of God are other types of angels...or angel like "beings", that carry out some task for God. As you have rightly noted, adversary was a action in those other passages I posted. But there was a "person" that undertook the action. If you check the passage guess what. It is the angel of the Lord. Humm So...could this be the same angel like "being" back in Job 1-3?

Satan was the Father of Evil not because he sinned first but because he tempt the angels and Man to sin, but I see what you are saying...
The contention is noted and I would agree anyone CAN be AN Advasariy with regard to it being a person much like Peter. My only problem it the scripture states it is 'The' Advisary with regard to not only a person but a person to whom the name is known to belong. There are others such as Rev and such but I do agree that even though we may Yes, Satan or No - we do know it was an angelic being. I guess it could be said like this James -
How do you know the Difference between The Spirit in scripture and the generalizations such as the spirit (angel) or the spirit (mans spirit) in scripture???

I do not see this Allan. Please show me a verse where the Devil goes back into the 3rd heaven. I maybe wrong, but I want to see a verse.

Your not wrong, I posted the wrong Chapter. It is actually Ezk 2814-16), 17-19 but as I stated it refers to the full casting down of Satan in the future (I will) where he will be seen by the kings of the earth and vanquished eternally (Rev 20) The other is in Rev where he is BEFORE THE LORD accusing the brethren. Now both don't necessarly mean Satan IS before God but it does not preclude this either. That is the statement I am making. I have yet to find any scriptures that say God can not have sin in His presence or in Heaven. We find in Rev 12 a great war IN Heaven that Satan started and it is where Satan is cast down AGAIN from Heaven.

Yes...He could do it. I just would like to see it from the Bible. This is what I see. If you are in heaven ans sin....you are cast out and not invited back. Even Cain was not invited back.

Yes but Cain was never in Heaven. Where does it state you can't go back if God commands your presense. This is why I stated it deosn't necessitate that Satan IS in heaven but via those verses it does not preclude that Satan doesn't. It is more an argument from the vague and some from silence. Niether are something I would preach dogmatically.

But you know I believe in Gods soveriengnty....so this would not change my "set rules". It may change yours.

What I was wanting to see is your "set rules" that does preclude Satan from Heaven. I have no problem with change if it can be substantiated, but if it is just as vague as mine I see no need many times.

You mean the 7 Spirits? I read a good long work on this about a year ago. It had a lot of good ideas...but if I shared it..It would mess it up. The writer didn't sell me on his ideas, but nor was he trying. He was more like throw them out there. I'm not sure I can find it or not..but I will look. Maybe ironside??? But that does not sound like ironside, he hardly ever took chances. I'll look and see if I can find it.

Well in relation to the 7 spirits of the seven churches could either be man or actual Angels or both. I hold specifically to the view they are the Pastors of the Churches but some would argue in that age there wasn't One Pastor (Elder) but many. I was just tossing it out for your thoughts as a side bar...

 

[Allan]

This I strongly disagree with.
Job was told by his friends...You must have done something.
Job says....No..I tell you I have not sinned.
Friends say....think Job...think....there must be some reason.
Job says...I tell you i have no idea why God did this.
Job says...God why? Show me why? I will fix it if you show me why.

God says...I do not have to show you why. I am God.
God says...did you make this Job? Did you make that Job? No Job...I made it all. Look at how powerful I am. Look at the wonders of the world. Job..I made the world. Who are you to tell me what to do?
Job says...You are right...I'm sorry.
God says...I'm mad at your friends for telling this about me.
God forgives..and all is well.

I do not dispute that Job knows all things are ordained by God. But Job also accuses God of Judging him of a sin he knows nothing about and that God's judgment has made Job an enemy of God and even persecuted by God. The problem is that Job in defending himself places his own foot in his mouth. Job didn't know what was happening much less WHY it was happening.

Gods answering are basically establishing to Job that in his finite knowledge who was he to critisize his Creator. Being that his understanding was so limited he was not qualified to judge the do and don't of God as he does not know all that God DOES know and therefore WHY He does or allows them.

This is why the first time Job opens his mouth after Gods intial rebuke he states he will put his hand over his mouth and not say another word. If he was so innocent in his speach why does God even have to rebuke him??? We see Job repenting in 43:1-6 for speaking of things he knew nothing about nor did he understand.

It isn't so much about "I'm God, shut up and obey" Your view.
God is saying IMO "I am God and you were wrong in your assumed Judgment of Me. Lets see who is qualified to be God or be the Judge OF God... Ummm...looks like you don't measure up. God does even finish (we can assume) when Job confess all of this and that he assume what he does not know or understand. Job repents (which is why God stated the whole conversation in the first place) Then He turns His attention to Jobs friends so that THEY would repent as well. My View

The difference is a soveriegn God who demands obedience
vs
a soveriegn and loving God who desire a relationship in which obedience is willing given.

Job did not blame Satan anywhere in the book. Job knew who was in control.

I never said Job stated Satan did it.. ???

Job said God did it. God never at any time said Job you are wrong...that was satan. God just said..Who are you to tell me what i can and cannot do. That is the story of Job.

Yes, Job said God did it...and since Job stated that Job was innocent of any sins he could think of...What did that make God??
God didn't have to for once He dealt with where Job first faultered the rest Job knew was false because he had falsly ASSUMED.
God shows in His rebukes/refutes over and over that what He does is for a purpose and is known only to Himself. And because God knows WHY something is done He has the right to do it or allow it. God did NONE of those things TO Job but allowed Satan (the Advisary) the do it to him to show that Job would never turn his back on God, and Job didn't. He just began complain much later than I would have started.

The book is not about Job...its about God.

The book is about both God and Job like I previously stated. I could almost swear Jobs name is there somewhere :winksmilegrin:

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

You are correct that there is no 'scriptural' explict references regarding God giving revelation to man. But we do see it somewhat implictly. Take Cain and Able and God speaking with Cain. First, how did they know to offer anything and if anything was offered how will they know what is pleasing? I thing Adam and Eve might have filled them in but I think God had a hand still is speaking with Man from time to time then just as He had a sit down chat with Cain. Yes the earth was full of evil and man choose to live their own way, so we know they understood a different way was there too. God saw that Noah feared the Lord and we see that God called Noah Righteous for this. He also preached Gods judgment to come on them but what good would that do if they believe what they are doing is the 'right' way. Being decendents of Adam not far removed they all knew about God and obviously what He wanted but didn't care.

There is nothing found in the Bible that states Adam had a chat with Cain. This would hurt your case, not help it. For if Adam had told Cain to do this, Adam surely would have told Cain what to bring to the Lord. This was Cains idea to gain favor with God. The point God was trying to make, is favor only comes though the blood of the Lamb.

Noah was seen as just, only after God found favor with him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. The covenant was with Noah and his family. God said he would save 8 people. This is all that was saved. I think it is peter??...someone says Noal preached. No others came on the ark. This is way off subject, but as a Calvinist I wanted to point out a pure picture of election.

Did Able sin? Scripture state for ALL have sinned and fall short... this would seem to include Able, even Enoch (and Elijah) who were take up into heaven (which heaven... Maybe space on a planet somewhere or maybe with God)

A planet? That sounds like one of my statements. I told you to stop hanging around bad guys.
Yes...all have sinned. Able sinned i am sure, if only a little.

Well, David stated that IF he go to hell God is there too. We can't keep the devil from anyplace much less heaven. But God can do as He pleases and this includes allowing whomever He commands to appear before him that they must come.

Verse please. If you are talking about pas 139, you need to reread this. This is talking about death/grave, not hell. If you have another verse please post it.

The contention is noted and I would agree anyone CAN be AN Advasariy with regard to it being a person much like Peter. My only problem it the scripture states it is 'The' Advisary with regard to not only a person but a person to whom the name is known to belong. There are others such as Rev and such but I do agree that even though we may Yes, Satan or No - we do know it was an angelic being. I guess it could be said like this James -
How do you know the Difference between The Spirit in scripture and the generalizations such as the spirit (angel) or the spirit (mans spirit) in scripture???

I'll give you this. The "THE" is the hardest thing to overcome in the passage. This is why I started with special unique being ordered to do this, just as Michael is unique. Look, I'm not writing a book on it, for there are to many what ifs out there. Just thought maybe someone else would like to do the work for us...and just give us 5% of sales.

Your not wrong, I posted the wrong Chapter. It is actually Ezk 2814-16), 17-19 but as I stated it refers to the full casting down of Satan in the future (I will) where he will be seen by the kings of the earth and vanquished eternally (Rev 20) The other is in Rev where he is BEFORE THE LORD accusing the brethren. Now both don't necessarly mean Satan IS before God but it does not preclude this either. That is the statement I am making. I have yet to find any scriptures that say God can not have sin in His presence or in Heaven. We find in Rev 12 a great war IN Heaven that Satan started and it is where Satan is cast down AGAIN from Heaven.

I knew what passage you are talking about. I am saying these passages you view wrong. Ezk has been done. I can prove that. Rev. is a 2nd casting down. This is where the devil is limited to the earth only. In Ezk he is cast from heaven, which has been done, and it most be the 3rd heaven, being that he still has "powers in the air".

Yes but Cain was never in Heaven. Where does it state you can't go back if God commands your presense.

In Cains case God makes it clear it is forever. Gen 4

This is why I stated it deosn't necessitate that Satan IS in heaven but via those verses it does not preclude that Satan doesn't. It is more an argument from the vague and some from silence. Niether are something I would preach dogmatically.

I agree.

Well in relation to the 7 spirits of the seven churches could either be man or actual Angels or both. I hold specifically to the view they are the Pastors of the Churches but some would argue in that age there wasn't One Pastor (Elder) but many. I was just tossing it out for your thoughts as a side bar...

I think you mis-understand me. When I say the 7 Spirits of God, this is not the same as the 7 spirits near the 1st of the book of Rev. The ones you keep talking about are pastor or something near that. I agree. I'm talking about the 7 spirits of God that are before the throne of God at all times. This is clearing not the same as the seven churches. This is clearly a unique group...more then just a angel.