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Who is the Author of Sin - Micro refutation of Calvinism
- Thread starter TheRadicalOne
- Start date
If the killing of Jesus wasn't sin, then why were their hearts pricked, and why did Peter tell them to repent? Why were their hands wicked?
I don't really disagree. He allows sin for a reason, and that reason has something to do with redeeming all of creation from sin.
[ September 04, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
The problem you have is really with scripture, which uses the word "determine". It says it was God's determinite counsel that those who crucified Christ were fulfilling.
Of course.
Of course not. But at the same time, it happened according to God's predetermined plan. I grant you there is mystery there, but if you take what scripture tells us about this seriously, then the sinful acts of these men fulfilled God's determinite counsel.
[ September 04, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
I was doing a loose paraphrase of Daniel 4 where it says that God does His will among the inhabitants of the earth and no one can restrain His hand. This is the sort of "will" of God's actions, and we can't do anything to thwart that sort of will. It will be done, because the all-powerful God Himself determines to do it.
This is a little different than the "will" of His commands, which people ignore all the time. It is in this sense of "will" that those who are His sons do His will--they keep His commands.
It means the thought of child sacrifices is so abhorrent to the Lord that it never even entered His mind to command the Israelites to do that.
[ September 04, 2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
TheRadicalOne
New Member
And when most Calvinist say that God has decreed everything that happens, they are using the word "decree" to mean both those things God actively works, and also those things He chooses to allow for a purpose. Perhaps you misunderstood and you really don't have the objection you thought you did.
They were doing what God had ordained for them to do. Are you just going to ignore Acts 4:27,28? Did they enter the kingdom of God? Not unless they were saved. The will of the Father for those who enter the Kingdom is that they be saved.
Can't God keep us from sinning?
Nothing happens that hasn’t been ordained and God allows sin to accomplish His will
Uh, the Joseph of Genesis. The evil brought upon Joseph by his brothers was sin, but God ordained it to happen so that Joseph, in the end, would be able to feed his brothers and his father during the drought. Do you deny this?
Also, have you ever read Isaiah 10?
Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against a hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Looks pretty clear to me that God is the one who made the Assyrians attack Israel. It was God who made Assyria the rod of His anger. After Assyria did exactly as God ordained then He punished the Assyrians. Why? Because of the pride in the Assyrians heart. They actually believed THEY were the ones who were in control. Are you just going to ignore this passage?
Isa 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
Isa 10:13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
Foreknowledge is not the same as Foresight. The Greek word is "prowrisen" which means foreordained. Yes, the crucifiction was ordained by God (Rev, 13:8)or else it was a accident which means you worship a Deist type god. Even most orthodox Arminians would agree with Calvinists on this but this view that God did not foreordain the crucifiction has a slightly Open Theist type smell 
If you want to know what Calvinist believe ...I would suggest you read Calvinist confessions. No Calvinist confession attributes evil to God.
The Waldenses Confession states
"VI. That he governs and rules all by his providence, ordaining and appointing whatsoever happens in this world, without being the author or cause of any evil committed by the creatures, so that the guilt thereof neither can nor ought to be in any way imputed unto him."
Even the prince of Arminians, John Wesley declared God ordained the Crucifiction.
Wesley stated "The sense is, but they could do no more than thou wast pleased to permit, according to thy determinate counsel, to save mankind by the sufferings of thy Son. And what was needful for this end, thou didst before determine to permit to be done. "
I think to say God did not ordain the crucifiction is very dangerous and has a Deist type Open Theist theology where God is really not in control of the universe but is just observing from a distance.
[ September 04, 2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
If you want to know what Calvinist believe ...I would suggest you read Calvinist confessions. No Calvinist confession attributes evil to God.
The Waldenses Confession states
"VI. That he governs and rules all by his providence, ordaining and appointing whatsoever happens in this world, without being the author or cause of any evil committed by the creatures, so that the guilt thereof neither can nor ought to be in any way imputed unto him."
Even the prince of Arminians, John Wesley declared God ordained the Crucifiction.
Wesley stated "The sense is, but they could do no more than thou wast pleased to permit, according to thy determinate counsel, to save mankind by the sufferings of thy Son. And what was needful for this end, thou didst before determine to permit to be done. "
I think to say God did not ordain the crucifiction is very dangerous and has a Deist type Open Theist theology where God is really not in control of the universe but is just observing from a distance.
[ September 04, 2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God... I agree with Ken, rlvaughn, Primitive Baptist, PinoyBaptist and Kiffin... I can tell you brethren one thing for sure... I'm sure there is no argument on who the remedy for SIN is... Is there?... Brother Glen
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God... I agree with Ken, rlvaughn, Primitive Baptist, PinoyBaptist and Kiffin... I can tell you brethren one thing for sure... I'm sure there is no argument on who the remedy for SIN is... Is there?... Brother Glen
TheRadicalOne
New Member
The word "WILL" used in Matthew 7:21 is:
2307 thelema {thel'-ay-mah}
from the prolonged form of 2309; TDNT - 3:52,318; n n
AV - will 62, desire 1, pleasure 1; 64
1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done
1a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
1b) of what God wishes to be done by us
1b1) commands, precepts
2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure
Psalms 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
God's decrees could not include any sin. In those Calvinistic "confessions" they say that God has decreed all but is not guilty for sin. How can that be possible? Then he didn't decree all.
2307 thelema {thel'-ay-mah}
from the prolonged form of 2309; TDNT - 3:52,318; n n
AV - will 62, desire 1, pleasure 1; 64
1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done
1a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
1b) of what God wishes to be done by us
1b1) commands, precepts
2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure
Psalms 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
God's decrees could not include any sin. In those Calvinistic "confessions" they say that God has decreed all but is not guilty for sin. How can that be possible? Then he didn't decree all.
TheRadicalOne
New Member
So, God ordains my sin. Isn't that blasphemy?
Psalms 5:4
God's decrees are simply the way God has chosen for history to happen. They are the "counsel of his will." Just because something is decreed doesn't mean God actively causes it to happen!!!!
Nothing can possibly fall outside this "counsel of his will" or else Ephesians 1:11 is not true.
TheRadicalOne
New Member
TheRadicalOne
New Member
I read some minutes ago in Calvin's Institutes, the first book, section 18.
What a diabolic teaching called the "SECRET WILL of God" That is frightening, as if God had a dark or evil side. I don't know how in the world can people be so blinded to follow John Calvin's teachings.
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (KJV)
[ September 05, 2002, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: TheRadicalOne ]
What a diabolic teaching called the "SECRET WILL of God" That is frightening, as if God had a dark or evil side. I don't know how in the world can people be so blinded to follow John Calvin's teachings.
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (KJV)
[ September 05, 2002, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: TheRadicalOne ]
Because Calvin calls it "secret" its evil????
Are you personally privy to all of God's will? Do you know all that God has planned for you today? Do you disagree that there is part of God's will that we won't know until it happens?
Please read the passage from Isaiah 10 (You can start in verse 5 and go to verse 19 or so)? Was it God's will for Assyria to go up against Israel or not? Did the king of Assyria know he was doing God's will?
I would really like it if you would explain this passage of scripture. How can this passage be true as it is recorded for us, and God's will only include those things that are revealed (or commanded)?
Whatever your theory is for how God's will works, it has to have an explanation of this passage. Can you explain what yours it?
Several people on this thread have explained their views of the will of God and how it works in different passages, and you have only poked so-called holes in their explanations. Now its your turn--you've got some splanin' to do!
[ September 05, 2002, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
TheRadicalOne
New Member
I've read Calvin, and what he is doing is making some sort of explanation of how God's will works in passages like Isaiah 10. If you don't like that particular explanation--that God has a secret or decretive will that does not always run parallel to his will of commands or his preceptive will--then develop another system.
But make sure it deals with EVERYTHING the text says, not just part of it.
Still waiting for your explanation of how Isaiah 10 fits into your system. C'mon.....pony up!
But make sure it deals with EVERYTHING the text says, not just part of it.
Still waiting for your explanation of how Isaiah 10 fits into your system. C'mon.....pony up!
Radical:
Moses said "the secret things belong to God" which means there are things we do not know or understand which only He knows.
You find the following statement in Acts - "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning".
And if you read Job well, you find God questioning Job on his whereabouts while God was creating, neither can Job explain away the innermost secrets of such ordinary things as snow, or rain.
I think russell 55 sums up the point pretty well.
And if I may add, the phrase in Isaiah where God says He created evil is basically the same thought as God hardening Pharaoh's heart.
Both were passive acts where God simply allows things to pass that His own will may be done.
In allowing evil to happen, God is simply proving to man the corruptness of his nature and heart.
Moses said "the secret things belong to God" which means there are things we do not know or understand which only He knows.
You find the following statement in Acts - "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning".
And if you read Job well, you find God questioning Job on his whereabouts while God was creating, neither can Job explain away the innermost secrets of such ordinary things as snow, or rain.
I think russell 55 sums up the point pretty well.
And if I may add, the phrase in Isaiah where God says He created evil is basically the same thought as God hardening Pharaoh's heart.
Both were passive acts where God simply allows things to pass that His own will may be done.
In allowing evil to happen, God is simply proving to man the corruptness of his nature and heart.
Says TheRadicalOne"
Unlike them, I do happen to ascribe to the absolute fact of this absolute predestination. And I see nothing in scripture that refutes the fact that God in His Soverignty, is in absolute control of all his creation. He does His will, as He will, among the army of heaven, and the inhabitants of the earth. None can resist His will, and none can stay His hand.
You say, "If that is true, they make God guilty for Sin and the Author of it. (Blasphemy)" Well guess what, it most certainly is true. But regardless of the truth, no one is able to make God guilty of nor hold him accountable for any thing for any reason.
Let me explain something to you..... It is God who has made us, and not we ourselves. He sets the boundries of the universe, and has set the stars and planets in their orbits. And where were you when He did all this? What right do you have to judge God and to tell Him what He may or may not do with His very own creation in order to live up to "your view" of what is or is not fair?
You said, " Please answer my Calvinist friend: Does God allow my Sin or He ordains it?
What God does is His good will and pleasure. All things were made by Him, and for Him, and for His good will and pleasure. Is it right for man to kill? Think not, huh! We got a big thou shalt not for that one. Is is right for God to kill? I bet you will find lots of instances in scripture where he has done just that. Is God guilty of breaking his own commandments. God forbid.
I beliieve that whatever is, is by the will of God. Nothing is out of place in God's universe. God's will is never twarted. Nothing is by accident or mistake. All that he has foreknown will be with him for eternity. Did you know there are two kinds of people..... those he foreknew..... and those he never knew...... that'll preach.....
In Christ
First, what you are describing does not fit most "so called" Calvanists. I say "so called" because Calvanist are "CHRISTIANS", not Calvinists. They just happen to understand that Mr. Calvin knew what he was talking about. At any rate, most of this group of Christians believe in predestination of/for salvation. But they do not believe in what is known as the absolute predestination of all things.
Unlike them, I do happen to ascribe to the absolute fact of this absolute predestination. And I see nothing in scripture that refutes the fact that God in His Soverignty, is in absolute control of all his creation. He does His will, as He will, among the army of heaven, and the inhabitants of the earth. None can resist His will, and none can stay His hand.
You say, "If that is true, they make God guilty for Sin and the Author of it. (Blasphemy)" Well guess what, it most certainly is true. But regardless of the truth, no one is able to make God guilty of nor hold him accountable for any thing for any reason.
Let me explain something to you..... It is God who has made us, and not we ourselves. He sets the boundries of the universe, and has set the stars and planets in their orbits. And where were you when He did all this? What right do you have to judge God and to tell Him what He may or may not do with His very own creation in order to live up to "your view" of what is or is not fair?
You said, " Please answer my Calvinist friend: Does God allow my Sin or He ordains it?
What God does is His good will and pleasure. All things were made by Him, and for Him, and for His good will and pleasure. Is it right for man to kill? Think not, huh! We got a big thou shalt not for that one. Is is right for God to kill? I bet you will find lots of instances in scripture where he has done just that. Is God guilty of breaking his own commandments. God forbid.
I beliieve that whatever is, is by the will of God. Nothing is out of place in God's universe. God's will is never twarted. Nothing is by accident or mistake. All that he has foreknown will be with him for eternity. Did you know there are two kinds of people..... those he foreknew..... and those he never knew...... that'll preach.....
In Christ