Who is the whore drunk on the blood of saints?

My view is the preterist view, you agree with my last post yet you say the preterist view is incorrect.

I'll have to sleep on that.

 

My view is the preterist view, you agree with my last post yet you say the preterist view is incorrect.

I'll have to sleep on that. </font>[/QUOTE]Let me help.
Just because you come to a certain conclusion about certain facts, it does not follow that that is the only viable conclusion.
For example; Evolution vs creation. Many folks look at evidences and make opposite conclusions, but the evidences don't change.

This is why I can agree with the Scripture you posted and its relationship to Jerusalem, but not with your conclusion that the preterist veiw is correct. I see those same passages as teaching a furturist view. I do not see them as being fully fulfilled in the past as the preterist view does. I see Jerusalem as that whore, this is inescapable. But I do not see the events of 70 AD as being the total fulfillment of Revelation.

The difference is the conclusion you or I come to based on the Scriptures.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

The problem is Jesus spoke in the past tense. Those who killed the prophets.

Secondly if your view is corrct it meant nothing to anyone Jesus was speaking to. Nor to anyone for over a 1000 years afterwards.

Thirdly, the RCC no longer kills those who don't convert and hasn't for centuries.

 

The RCC, having the knowledge of what the Jews did in the past, went on and did WORSE, just as the Jews did after seeing the Ten Tribes punished for idilatry.

While Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed by the Romans, who later REALLY dispersed the Jews, there was no great tribulation that threatened all flesh, and no rapture in 70 AD.

Remember, Jesus gave John the Revelation AFTER Jerusalem was destroyed.

 

Revelation was written prior to AD70.

The Roman seige on Jerusalem was the tribulation. See Josephus' "War of the Jews".

 

by GRASSHOPPER "Revelation was written prior to AD70.

The Roman seige on Jerusalem was the tribulation. See Josephus' "War of the Jews".
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You ARE kidding....RIGHT???...You REALLY think the tribulation has already happened?? Please tell me you are joking.I'll bet even ole Josephus wouldn't buy that one if he were alive TODAY.And....I'll say right here and now that IF it wasn't for the fact that I'm SAVED and have a hope for the future...A Blessed Hope....I'd be fearful of the tribulation THAT IS YET TO COME.Thankfully...by the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ...I won't be here for it.I'm listening for a trumpet blast anytime now.

In Christ,Greg Sr.

 

No Greg, he is not kidding.
No...REALLY!

In HIS service;
jim

 

John Lightfoot
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

[Those days shall be shortened.] God lengthened the time for the sake of the elect, before the destruction of the city; and in the destruction, for their sakes he shortened it. Compare with these words before us 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise," &c. It was certainly very hard with the elect that were inhabitants of the city, who underwent all kinds of misery with the besieged, where the plague and sword raged so violently that there were not living enough to bury the dead; and the famine was so great, that a mother ate her son (perhaps the wife of Doeg Ben Joseph, of whom see such a story in Babyl. Joma). And it was also hard enough with those elect who fled to the mountains, being driven out of house, living in the open air, and wanting necessaries for food: their merciful God and Father, therefore, took care of them, shortening the time of their misery, and cutting off the reprobates with a speedier destruction; lest, if their stroke had been longer continued, the elect should too far have partaken of their misery.

Your mocking only exposes your ignorance on this subject. I doubt you have ever heard of the following theologians considering they don't hang around Van Impe and LaHaye but it will give you a little insight in what many believed before 1900:

C.H. Spurgeon (1888)
For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred." (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412,413)


Adam Clarke (1837)
"Verse 21. For then shall be great tribulation— No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews:-rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also." (Matthew 24, quoting Newton)

Eusebius (325)
"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

"These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground."(History)

Philip Schaff (1877)
"The forbearance of God with his covenant people, who had crucified their own Saviour, reached it last its limit. As many as could be saved in the usual way, were rescued. The mass of the people had obstinately set themselves against all improvement. James the Just, the man who was fitted, if any could be, to reconcile the Jews to the Christian religion, had been stoned by his hardened brethren, for whom he daily interceded in the temple; and with him the Christian community in Jerusalem had lost its importance for that city. The hour of the "great tribulation" and fearful judgment drew near. The prophecy of the Lord approached its literal fulfilment: Jerusalem was razed to the ground, the temple burned, and not one stone was left upon another. ( History of the Christian Church p. 397-398)"

R.C. Sproul (1998)
"Russell and Calvin agree that the language employed in biblical prophecy is not always cold and logical as is common in the Western world, but adopts a kind of fervor common to the East. Scripture commonly describes the visitation of God's judgment with images of convulsion and cataclysms." (The Last Days According to Jesus, 45)

John Gill
Matthew 24:21

For then shall be great tribulation…
This is urged as a reason for their speedy flight; since the calamity that would come upon those who should remain in the city, what through the sword, famine, pestilence, murders, robberies… would

be such as was not since the beginning of the world, to this time,
no, nor ever shall be.
The burning of Sodom and Gomorrha, the bondage of the children of Israel in Egypt, their captivity in Babylon, and all their distresses and afflictions in the times of the Maccabees, are nothing to be compared with the calamities which befell the Jews in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Great desolations have been made in the besieging and at the taking of many famous cities, as Troy, Babylon, Carthage… but none of them are to be mentioned with the deplorable case of this city. Whoever reads Josephus's account will be fully convinced of this; and readily join with him, who was an eyewitness of it, when he says {m}, that


``never did any city suffer such things, nor was there ever any generation that more abounded in malice or wickedness.''

And indeed, all this came upon them for their impenitence and infidelity, and for their rejection and murdering of the Son of God; for as never any before, or since, committed the sin they did, or ever will, so there never did, or will, the same calamity befall a nation, as did them.


Matthew Henry:
3. The greatness of the troubles which should immediately ensue (Matthew 24:21); Then shall be great tribulation; then when the measure of iniquity is full; then when the servants of God are sealed and secured, then come the troubles; nothing can be done against Sodom till Lot is entered into Zoar, and then look for fire and brimstone immediately. There shall be great tribulation. Great, indeed, when within the city plague and famine raged, and (worse than either) faction and division, so that every man's sword was against his fellow; then and there it was that the hands of the pitiful women flayed their own children. Without the city was the Roman army ready to swallow them up, with a particular rage against them, not only as Jews, but as rebellious Jews. War was the only one of the three sore judgments that David excepted against; but that was it by which the Jews were ruined; and there were famine and pestilence in extremity besides. Josephus's History of the Wars of the Jews, has in it more tragical passages than perhaps any history whatsoever.

Perhaps sometime in between book 9 and 10 of LaHaye's "Left Behind" series you could squeeze in Matthew Henry's commentary on Matt 24. Who knows, you might even learn something.

http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024

 

Nice try Grasshopper....but it may disappoint you to know I HAVEN'T wasted ANY of my precious time(or the Lord's)reading ANY of LaHayes books.I far more prefer Clarence Larkin,J.Dwight Pentecost,and others such as them of the more "orthodox" strain.I have no doubt that the Jews suffered mightily in A.D.70 at the hands of Rome and that is truly regretable from ANY perspective...BUT...they weren't the ONLY living,breathing flesh alive at that day so to call the localized persecution of the Jews in A.D.70 THE great tribulation as outlined in Revelation is just plain SHORTSIGHTED at the least...and FALSE DOCTRINE at worst.You can believe what you wish....but I'll stick with what the Holy Spirit has borne witness too within my own heart.
As to the men you quote above...they are only men and as such are subject to ERROR.I'd also be tempted to question the "context" of some of the quoted statements.Unfortunately for you I believe you have been genuinely deceived somewhere along the line and if you aren't careful the REAL "great tribulation" that the Word of God DOES teach may sneak up and take you by surprize.I hope not and I hope your eyes and heart are opened to the truth before it is too late.Just for the record...before I am accused of something...I am NOT saying you aren't saved....just seriously deceived about this very important Biblical truth.The worst IS yet to come.Thank God that by His Grace I can expect to be caught away before it happens.I'm thankfully looking forward to that glorious day when I'll see my Saviour.Probably sooner than later.

In Christ,Greg Sr.

 

Oh yeah...by the way...I just happen to read A LOT of Spurgeon's work...great stuff...but he was somewhat non-commital on end-times eschatology...and even though he was more Calvinist than not he still preached Jesus to the masses believing that the Word must be preached and heard before ANY sinners could be saved.I guess he went with the idea that it was God's job to sort'em out!I don't agree with ANYBODY 100%....except God...and it is His business to reveal truth to me...as HE see's fit...in HIS good time.

For The Saviour, Greg Sr.

 

And another thing..lol...I cut Dr.Jack(Van Impe) loose as far as being credible when he started schmoozing with the "church" at Rome.Prior to that I did listen to his tape series/commentary on the Book of Revelation.Personally,I thought it was quite balanced and good.It was a shame to see him fall to the present ecumenisism for the sake (apparently) of broadening his "audience".The man was and I assume still is a "memorization" genius.I heard him preach in Jacksonville Fla. back in the early 80's and though he had a Bible with him he never once had to open it....quoted verse after verse from the King James WORD PERFECT for well over an hour.If I remember correctly the topic was the endtimes starting with the Book of Daniel as related to the truths revealed in Revelation.A truly sad thing to see him compromise and go the route he has.He has enough of the Word of God floating around in his head that he should know better.I guess we should all pray for him.Carry on there grasshopper!

Greg Sr.

 

The Apostate Church, the bride of the antichrist.

 

Uh..Grasshopper...what happened to ya buddy...you went silent on me just when I was beginning to enjoy our little debate!Oh well...God Bless you and I hope it inspired some deeper thought in you.

Greg Sr.

 

What more do you wish to debate? Perhaps Rev.1:1,3? Besides, I think the the Bible is quite clear on who Babylon is.