Who is this man?

[TexasSky]

Joseph,

*s* I knew that. lol I meant God the Father, Christ, or were the "three men" really the three parts of the trinity vs The Lord and 2 angels? (Most theologians, and I, believe it is God and 2 angels.)

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

TS,

You might be right.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Marcia]

Since God is spirit, and it says in the Bible (as Bill pointed out) that no one can see God and live, I think it was a Christophany.

Of course, at that time Jesus had not incarnated and so I can see why someone would then say, well if Jesus was spirit then, why could it not have been God? But I think the fact that Jesus did incarnate later, and that the Bible says no one can see God face to face and live, that it was Jesus. But they did not know Jesus then, so it was the Lord. Since Jesus is God, no problem.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Which scripture says that God the Father never took human form?

God is spirit (John 4:24); God is invisible (Col 1:15; 1 Tim 1:17); the first commandment prohibits making an image of him, meaning that there was no physical body. God took human form in Christ, the Son, at the incarnation.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Since God is spirit, and it says in the Bible (as Bill pointed out) that no one can see God and live,

Moses did see the hind quarters of God and lived. He did not see the fullness of the Glory of God. But, consider the following passages:

1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple.

Isaiah 6

Question: Who did Isaiah see here? Did he see the fullness of the Glory of God?

Consider this passage:

12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

1 Corinthians 13

Is it possible, that just like Paul says here, that Moses, Isaiah, and Joshua might have seen but a poor reflection as in a mirror of God, and therefore lived? Is it possible that God revealed himself in different ways at different times to man? What in scripture prevents God the Father from revealing himself as a man to man at different times? Is there something in scripture that says God the Father was never and could never be revealed as a man?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Which scripture says that God the Father never took human form?

God is spirit (John 4:24); God is invisible (Col 1:15; 1 Tim 1:17); the first commandment prohibits making an image of him, meaning that there was no physical body. God took human form in Christ, the Son, at the incarnation. </font>[/QUOTE]The first commandment prohibits man from creating an image of God. I don't think that prohibition was extended to God himself. I think he could reveal himself any way he wishes, in many different ways as he did at the burning bush, in Isaiah's vision, etc...

Joseph Botwinick

 

[TexasSky]

Technically -

Saying, "Thou shalt not make" doesn't mean "it can't be done," it means "it shouldn't be done."

I have to agree with Joseph that God can take any form He wants.

As to "man not being able to look upon his face," yes, the bible does say that HOWEVER ....

It ALSO says it has happened.

Genesis 32:30 "So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, 'IT is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

My study bible notes say that Jacob actually wresteled with God, but that God was in angelic form.

In any case - the bible clearly says that Jacob saw God face-to-face and lived.

 

[TexasSky]

Another passage that is interesting:

Exodus 33:9-11

As Moses went into the tent, the pillar of cloud would come down and stay at the entrance, while the Lord spoke with Moses. Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud stnding at the entrance of the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to his tent. The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua, son of Nun did not leave the tent.

Later, in that same chapter, Moses asks to see the full Glory of God, and God responds that none can see God and live.

I believe that God appears in manly form showing only a small part of Himself.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Well Joseph see what you started. It is a bit of fun.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
Since God is spirit, and it says in the Bible (as Bill pointed out) that no one can see God and live,

Moses did see the hind quarters of God and lived. He did not see the fullness of the Glory of God. But, consider the following passages:
</font>[/QUOTE]God doesn't have "hindquarters" since He is spirit. He didn't see God, he just saw the "back" of God, and the Bible makes it sound like it was God's departing glory that Moses saw. God doesn't have a "back" either. These words like "back" are just anthropomorphisms like passages that talk about God's hands or other body parts. The Mormons try to use those to show that God has a body. I think it's really important to maintain that God is spirit.

and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.

23"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen." Ex. 33.22-23

Seeing God "face to face" is something no man has done, as the Bible says. Here, God talks about his glory passing Moses by.

I think the Isaiah passage is a vision, and it could have been Christ. I think Christ is all that man can see before death and live.

I also think Jacob saw Christ. But to him it was the Lord.

As far as the Ex. 33.11 passage about Moses speaking to the Lord face to face, I was told by my OT prof (who also teaches Hebrew) that this is a Hebrew expression meaning God spoke directly to Moses. It does not mean Moses saw God's face. The prof went on at some length on that.

 

[Pastor Larry]

None of those passages speak anything about seeing a physical body, and that is the distinction. God can certainly manifest himself in many different ways, though I am not sure that list is open-ended. That's not the point. The point is that when God manifested himself as a person, it was Jesus, the Son.

The phrase "the angel of the Lord" is usually understood as a Christophany.

There is nothing that prevents God from revealing himself as a man. When he did so, it was Jesus.

What are you going after here? Just curious what the point is?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

1. Yes. That is one of many ways that God manifested himself, as Jesus. That, however, does not mean that God the father, could not have been manifested as a man, or a bush, or in any way he wishes for that matter.

2. How did we come to that understanding that "the angel of the Lord" is usually understoof as a Christophany? Does Scripture say that somewhere?

3. I guess my point is that just because a man appeared and said I am the Lord, that doesn't always mean that it was God the Son. But, now we are getting into a part of theology that I don't think I will ever truly understand, as Jesus is God, and the trinity and all, so what difference does it make, right? I guess I am saying that I am not ready to jump to a premature conclusion that rules out the possibility that it could have been God the father revealing himself as a man, and that it automatically had to be God the Son. The same would be true vice versa.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Joseph maybe I get your point and maybe I don't. As just a quick survey I went to some of my commentaries to check wiser heads than mine.This is just a quick check but here goes:
Barnes,MH,Wavoord&Zuck say it was Christ.
Darby says it was God the Father.
Gill and JFB are nuetral and don't state specically.
I have to go for a few hours so I won't be able to reply or check with more resources.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

OOOH you got your in while I was entering mine.Anyhow I think it validates your thinking.

 

[jdcanady]

Again, I urge you all to be cautious of the language you are using. The "oneness pentecostals" believe God "manisfested" Himself as Jesus at various times in history. They believe He only existed as one (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) at a time, and does not exist as a Trinity within the Godhead.

When the second person of the Trinity (The Son) took on flesh, He took it on permanently, He is named Jesus at that point, and He is the Christ.

God appeared at various times in history and this can be explained as a theophany or christophany, but it is not the God-man Jesus.

I hope I am not making too much of this. Please forgive me if you think I am.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by jdcanady:
Again, I urge you all to be cautious of the language you are using. The "oneness pentecostals" believe God "manisfested" Himself as Jesus at various times in history. They believe He only existed as one (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) at a time, and does not exist as a Trinity within the Godhead.

When the second person of the Trinity (The Son) took on flesh, He took it on permanently, He is named Jesus at that point, and He is the Christ.

God appeared at various times in history and this can be explained as a theophany or christophany, but it is not the God-man Jesus.

These are good points.

I hope I am not making too much of this. Please forgive me if you think I am.

You are not making too much of this. I think it's important how we view God. God is never spoken of as having a body, as Pastor Larry, I think pointed out. My concern is also the Mormon view that God has a body.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I do not believe that God has a body anymore than I think he has branches and leaves (bush), etc...

I was very careful to also point out that these manifestations of God are not the full glory of God as God transcends the physical. But, that does not preclude the possibility that he could have appeared in the form of something or someone physical (burning bush / the man in Joshua).

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Marcia]

I think the burning bush was like the pillar of fire -- God's glory. Interesting since God is also described as a "consuming fire."

And to the eyes of the sons of Israel the appearance of the glory of the LORD was like a consuming fire on the mountain top. Ex 24.17

"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. Deut 4.24

See also Deut. 9.3, Is 9.26, Is. 30.30, Is 33.24, Heb 12.29.

 

[yeshua4me2]

i always thought that

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

meant that they were all christophanies, or does this not apply.

i think in the Genesis Record by Henry Morris, He even states that it was a Christophany in the Garden.

just thoughts

thankyou and God Bless