P4T, in case you ain't noticed, EVERYONE that has posted so far on this thread has to some degree refused to accept the clear conviction by the Spirit of who killed Christ. It's NOT just Ach.
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Who Killed Christ? Jews or Romans?
- Thread starter DrJamesAch
- Start date
P4T, in case you ain't noticed, EVERYONE that has posted so far on this thread has to some degree refused to accept the clear conviction by the Spirit of who killed Christ. It's NOT just Ach.
There is a problem. Some on the BB seem to draw the conclusion that the crucifixion was actually sinful.
That just isn't the case and has no foundation in Scripture.
Here is why:
First, God cannot sin - many posts have pointed that out.
Secondly, God commanded that Jesus be put to death and in particular that of crucifixion. ("As Mosses lifted the serpent up in the wilderness, so MUST the ...")
Third, Jesus clearly teaches that no person could take His life from Him, and that not only had God given Him ALL authority to lay His life down, but to take it up again. Again, Scriptures on this thread have been used to show that fact.
Fourth, Unlike many who have faced death, Christ was in complete control of EVERY aspect. To name a few: The betrayal by Judas and Peter, Pilate's "what is truth, The scourging and plucking out of his beard, The person pressed into service to carry the cross.
Even when on the cross, Christ showed complete control asking the Father to forgive them, refused to take any intoxicant, refused to mock and scorn in return for vile remarks made to Him, responded to the needs of others, communicated to the Father, and as the creator/sustain-er of all things -kept all things in order and existence while He him self died.
Fifth, Every aspect of the crucifixion can be found in the prophets. Not one element of the crucifixion was outside of the direct and purposed command of God.
In Acts, Peter is showing that it was the SAME Jesus that died on the cross as the only hope of salvation. Both Jews and Gentiles are equally to blame according to Peter. Again, the passage has been posted that shows that as fact.
The difficulty with all who desire to "assign" blame to a single group or race, such as some groups have historically and this thread has some doing on the BB is that it ignores the truth of the Cross.
All believer's sinfulness is the REASON that Christ died. That makes us ALL equally guilty in that had He not shed the blood sacrifice for us, there would be no remission of sins.
That God so adored His only begotten Son, is a fact.
That God so adored all His creation, is a fact.
That God was not only willing but commanded His only begotten Son to die for all His creation, is a fact.
Why?
The rest of the BB can bluster and puff up how guiltless they are, assign blame, and ignore that historically such blame assignment has been used as an excuse to persecute others.
But if anyone is to blame for Christ's death, it is me.
As the Jews cried out, let His blood be upon me.
Christ died for me.
My sins nailed Him to the Cross.
My iniquity broke His heart so that both water and blood flowed freely from His side.
If anyone is to blame for Christ's death, it is me.
He took my place, and His death gave me life.
"... the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers..."
Unbelievable Old Man, your posts have become unbelievably in error. Murder is, always has been, and always will be SINFUL.
Jesus himself could have prevented it. He told Peter to put up his sword.
Then he told him that he could call upon his father and he would send 12 legions of angels (one legion equal to 6,000 angels). That is a lot of "fire-power."
He could have prevented his death, but he didn't; he went willingly as he said he would:
"I lay my life down, I take it up again; no man taketh it from me."
He died for you; He died for me; He died for us all.
We put Jesus on the cross.
What's your point? What relevance has this with the OP question of who killed Christ? It should be, it used to be a 'no brainer', but the heresy of Dispensationalism has taken it's toll. Just hours before the crucifixion he told those Jews:
"...upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23:35-38
The Jews MURDERED Christ, and they were held accountable for it for generations. IMO, they're STILL under His judgment.
"...upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23:35-38
The Jews MURDERED Christ, and they were held accountable for it for generations. IMO, they're STILL under His judgment.
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I see you only bolded what you thought was important.
Let's try again: This is copied from "Bible Gateway" Bolded parts my own additions
Matthew 23
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6 They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 [Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’
17 You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’
19 You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
Who was Christ stating the judgement? The Scribes and Pharisees.
When was the judgement to start? That generation.
When was the judgement to cease? When they proclaimed, "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!"
When will that time be? according to the covenant folks - never
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2010311#post2010311
I'm not 'Covenant folk', and I doubt this assessment of yours is correct either.
DrJamesAch
New Member
You really can't read. Nobody is saying that the Jews DID NOT kill Christ. THAT is all you are proving is that the Jews played A PART in killing Christ, but you have ignored (deliberately) all the verses that show the GENTILES involvement and specifically PILATE.
You have not refuted one single verse I sited in the OP that shows that ALL are guilty.
And here's a "DUH" moment for you. Jesus said "FATHER FORGIVE THEM" Forgive WHO? and FOR WHAT? This is a common sense NO BRAINER. You don't ask for forgiveness for something that someone DID NOT DO. Notice Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know what what they DO". If ONLY the JEWS killed Christ, then it is ONLY THE JEWS that Christ could have been talking to and therefore NOBODY ELSE COULD BE FORGIVEN. If Jesus was speaking to ONLY ROMANS, then the JEWS COULD NOT HAVE KILLED CHRIST.
You would think that anyone with half a brain could see that. DUH. It's 5th grade common sense.
Now, did Jesus say that "Upon you shall be all of the blood THAT CHRIST SHED"? NO. This verse does not prove that the Jews were solely responsible for killing Christ, in fact, it has NOTHING TO DO with His crucifixion. Here's another "DUH" moment for you. How could the Jews have killed Abel when the Jews were not a nation UNTIL ABRAHAM? DUH. This verse says NOTHING about the Jews KILLING ANYONE. It shows that the JUDGMENT and CONSEQUENCES for their deaths will be inherited by those Jews responsible for their murderous history, IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THE JEWS KILLING ABEL.
You have do perform leaps and bounds of grammatical gymnastics to make this verse say that the Jews killed Abel and thus make the leap from there to use this verse to try and prove that the Jews killed Christ. Yes, the Jews were responsible IN PART for killing Christ BUT NOT ACCORDING TO THIS VERSE IN MATTHEW 23.
Dispensationalism has nothing to do with interpreting a passage that any fifth grader with average reading ability can see. It also proves you haven't the slightest idea what dispensationalism even is. Dispensationalism is not a THEOLOGY, it is a method of interpretation the divisions in the Bible. But of course, morons like you think we are living the same way as did Adam, Noah, Abraham, Israel under the law, and the kingdom where Christ is reigning on earth ALL AT THE SAME TIME. You would think that any average person with a lick of intelligence could see the Bible itself is DIVIDED into TWO TESTAMENTS. So every Bible believer is at LEAST a 2 point dispensationalist, and anyone that believes that Jesus Christ has not yet come back, and His return is still future, is a dispensationalist. Anyone who denies that Jesus is coming back, and that He is already ruling and reigning on earth, and that eternity has already begun is a FOOL.
Nothing more even needs to be written because you have not even begun to address the arguments and Scriptures in the OP, you merely went right back to your misinterpreted proof texts and ignored the verses that refute your racist agenda.
Wrong. Post#16:
Here's the Spirit convicting the Jews through the mouths of His witnesses:
who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2:23
The Jews judged Him to be worthy of death, but God judged righteously and annulled their judgment by raising Him from the dead. Take note of the redundancy of the message from the Comforter in convicting the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD:
Acts 2:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
Acts 3:
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.
Acts 4:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders,
9 if we this day are examined concerning a good deed done to an impotent man, by what means this man is made whole;
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Acts 5:
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us.
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7
Acts 10:
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,
41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.
Acts 13:
16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken:
27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people
Notice, no mention of Roman blood guiltiness from the Spirit in all those passages.
No mention of Roman blood guiltiness here:
and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. Lu 24:20
No mention of Roman blood guiltiness here:
...the Jews; who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men; 1 Thess 2:14,15
No mention of Roman blood guiltiness here:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her!..... Mt 23:35
Compare:
And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18:24
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DrJamesAch
New Member
Once again, you ignored my explanation of Matthew 23, and all of the other verse you cited that were spoken to Jews because THAT WAS THE AUDIENCE of which the accusations were directed at. Peter specifically stated that Herod, Pilate AND Israel were responsible for Christs death in Acts 4:27-28, but that verse must not be in your Bible.
All you have done is repeated the same lame arguments based on the same proof texts NONE of which say the Jews were SOLELY responsible for the death of Christ.
You also ignored what Jesus said on the cross, and bypassed both explanations I have given for them.
You ignored the fact that in Hebrews 6, God holds ALL responsible for crucifying the Son of God afresh after those who were enlightened and illuminated reject Him.
You ignored the "THEY shall look upon him whom THEY PIERCED" and "ALL KINDREDS OF THE EARTH shall wail because of him". Who wails? Just Jews? Are the Jews "ALL KINDREDS"? And why are they wailing? Because they ALL PIERCED HIM. Now try and use your preterist interpretation of "all" to show this verse is limited to only the land of Israel (refuted by all kindreds) and at the same time, contradict yourself by claiming that ALL righteous blood from Abel to Zechariah means ALL OF THE EARTH. Funny how that works isn't it! That 'all' means the whole earth when you want to prove that the Jews killed all that dwell upon the earth, and then all means only the land of Israel when Revelation 1:7 shows that ALL were responsible for piercing Christ.
You have no idea how a debate actually works. You are clueless on how to dissect a premise and use counter-points for each argument and verse sited in support of the premise and axioms listed.
According to your logic, those who carry out the actual murder are guiltless. Hitler must have been under DURESS and thus that excuses his murdering of six million Jews. No wonder I've never seen you condemn his actions, you don't think he did anything wrong.
And I have given an exhaustive explanation of Revelation 17-18 to you before which you never refuted that proves Revelation 17-18 is about ROME not Israel. Israel has NEVER been responsible for killing ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH. Israel's condemnation in all the verse you site are LIMITED to THEIR OWN PEOPLE (prophets). Thus if Israel is responsible for the deaths of ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH, then I guess that lets Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Medo-Persia, Greece and ROME off the hook because they obviously never killed anyone, it was ISRAEL that MADE THEM do it, EVEN WHILE THEY WERE IN CAPTIVITY TO THOSE NATIONS.
Wow Israel must be some pretty powerful assassin state, such a small nation that forces ENTIRE EMPIRES to KILL EVERYONE ON EARTH. Nebuchadnezzar must have been DELUDED when he described THE BEAST because for some odd reason HE NEVER MENTIONED ISRAEL as being a part of the statue.
Stick to reading Mein Kampf because the Bible is definitely not your forte.
DrJamesAch
New Member
Once again, MY OP. I will highlight for you all the arguments and verses you IGNORED.
There's nothing new here. The same way you all reject the plain teaching of Ro 9 and reply back to God in opposition to what has plainly been stated, you Dispensationalists reject the clear teaching from scripture that THE JEWS CRUCIFIED CHRIST, no Romans, no me, no others, the Jews are the one convicted of the crime. Period. I'm not going down the rabbit holes of a mad man.
To those who desire to continue the hurt and blame, they MUST rely upon Acts, and ascribe the blame to the Jews for the death of Christ.
However, there was never any intent to place the blame solely upon the Jews in the book of Acts, but to point to the exact person who is the Christ.
Often folks neglect to remember that during this period of history, there were many who made claims they were the Christ, even the disciples of John the Baptizer came to investigate if Jesus was the Christ or did they need to look for another. Does not the Apostle John state that there are many who claim to be the Christ in the letters He wrote?
Therefore, the acts are to be read not from the view that "you are guilty and the rest of us can point our fingers of shame at you" but as identifying which of the many was truly the messiah.
This point is shown as accurate because in EVERY case in which Peter or Stephen proclaimed the death, they also identified Him as the one raised from the dead.
One other point. Stephen was not Peter, however, he used the words of Christ, who quoted the prophet(s) and did so (IMO) to emphasis how the rulers (whom Jesus had called, hypocrites) were still to be untrusted and considered anti-Christ - in which Saul/Paul was chief among them.
However, there was never any intent to place the blame solely upon the Jews in the book of Acts, but to point to the exact person who is the Christ.
Often folks neglect to remember that during this period of history, there were many who made claims they were the Christ, even the disciples of John the Baptizer came to investigate if Jesus was the Christ or did they need to look for another. Does not the Apostle John state that there are many who claim to be the Christ in the letters He wrote?
Therefore, the acts are to be read not from the view that "you are guilty and the rest of us can point our fingers of shame at you" but as identifying which of the many was truly the messiah.
This point is shown as accurate because in EVERY case in which Peter or Stephen proclaimed the death, they also identified Him as the one raised from the dead.
One other point. Stephen was not Peter, however, he used the words of Christ, who quoted the prophet(s) and did so (IMO) to emphasis how the rulers (whom Jesus had called, hypocrites) were still to be untrusted and considered anti-Christ - in which Saul/Paul was chief among them.
DrJamesAch
New Member
Nothing new for YOU because you've never tackled those verses in the FIRST place.
And I have YET to hear one anti-dispensationalist explain how the church is the fulfillment of the birthright to Ephraim where most Calvinists, preterists, covenanters, historicists, a-and post-mills all cut their feeding tubes on-they can't tell the difference between the spiritual promises and the physical promises, one from the line of Judah, and the OTHER from the line of Ephraim which was not to be reckoned after the genealogy of Judah. I can see why you CAN'T want to be a dispensationalist because you have to follow in the footsteps of your papist, I mean papas, Luther and Calvin who wouldn't touch Revelation with a 10 yard pole. Anti Dispensationalism is why Hitler thought he was helping the RCC bring in the Kingdom.
Every Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Muslim (and even HITLER) did exactly what you do with verses that you THINK support your view, quote them out of context, add meaning to something it does not say, and ignore every other verse that you can't explain because it destroys your racist "theology".
NOT AT ALL.
Unlike covenant folks, Dispensation folk don't stop reading with Romans 9.
Paul didn't stop writing with Romans 9.
Roman's 10 AND 11 is the hope for those who trust that the prophets and Christ did not lie.
10Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
This is the current state of the humankind and more particularly those of Israel.
Paul goes on to review the conditions in which God continued to deal with Israel by showing the Gentiles will be stirred against them.
19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I was found by those who did not seek Me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
But then in the very NEXT chapter, Paul continues to show how Israel is NOT left out and will be included.“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I was found by those who did not seek Me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
And in case the folks miss understood or didn't read correctly the first time, Paul repeats himself.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Isn't this EXACTLY what the typical Calvinistic thinker states? 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Wasn't Paul Calvinistic in thinking before there was a Calvinistic / Reformed systematic theological position?
8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Did you read that last sentence??? If the root is holy, if the dough is holy, so is the rest!Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
The Jewish folks are not the only "stiff necked" folks. Arrogance and conceit is found in Gentile believers, too
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
It isn't just Jews that may be cut off, but gentiles also. God is not a respecter of people that He is not just. If Israel repents and believes, they will be grafted back into the tree, too.
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation
Paul knew that some would stop reading with Chapter 9 and not continue with the rest of the book. That in that position they would become pride filled and "uninformed of this mystery."
—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Did not Paul make it very plain? Israel will be saved. Do not think this is applying to the "church" replacing "Israel." Paul makes the distinction between the Gentile and the Jew. The "partial hardening" doesn't apply to the church "until the fulness of the gentiles comes in." That just isn't correct thinking! Paul can ONLY be describing the condition of the political/social/religious Israel and that it is this SAME Israel that will be saved.“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
There can be no other rendering consistent with the context and with the rest of Scripture as it relates not only to the words of Christ, but to the Prophets, too.
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
I don't read Paul saying anything about God canceling the original covenant with Abraham. In fact, because Paul KNEW that some would be so filled with pride, conceit, and arrogance that they would consider they replaced Israel, he went on to restate and reinforce the statement.
30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Paul ends with saying "so be it."33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Paul refutes the "covenant" thinking as it applies to Israel.
John refutes the "covenant" thinking as it applies to the millennium.
Dispensation thinking may not have it right in EVERY area, but in these two they certainly are more strict with reliance upon the veracity of Scriptures than all the allegorical myth the covenant folks want to support.
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My, I haven't been called a mad man, before.
A lot of other words, and some none too kind, but never mad.
I suppose my wife thinks I am crazy, would that count?
Kyredneck,
I have shown you that IN CONTEXT the statements in which you rely in Acts do not support what you desire.
Dispensation thinkers don't reject the "clear teaching from Scriptures," that is left for others.
Like I posted above, Covenant thinkers generally have to make Scriptures allegorical in Roman's 10 and 11, where dispensation thinkers rely upon the veracity of the Scriptures as stated.
DrJamesAch
New Member
It's interesting you have never denied being a racist, and have never answered previous questions as to whether you believe Jesus was really a Jew. The closest you ever got was some drivel about your grandmother being discriminated against, but never actually denied you are a racist.
I know you're delusional and you have serious mental problems, but is Alzheimer's one of them? I've never mentioned a grandmother on this board. And remember, concerning all that 'irrelevant rabbit hole garbage' you like to throw out there, THAT'S ME, KYREDNECK, NOT ANSWERING! iluvit
iluvit