Who (or What) Determines ....

[ktn4eg]

.... If A Particular Practice Is A Sin?

I know that in many (if not most) so-called "evangelical" churches, modesty in how females dress for public worship services seems to be a "non-issue" in these days.

OTOH, I am trying to figure out just what is the specific criteria to determine whether or not a woman's dress/skirt hemline is sinful.

Back in the 1800's (and probably earlier than that), if a woman's dress hemline even so much as revealed her ankles, that would have been considered as "scandalous and sinful."

I don't know exactly when it started, but now it seems as if it's OK in many so-called "evangelical churches" that hardly any body is bothered if a woman's dress/skirt hemline stops at a couple inches above her knees.

I guess what I'm trying to say that if it was considered to be "scandalous and sinful" back about 150 years ago for a woman's hemline to so much as to reveal her ankles, why then does it now seem to be acceptable for a woman's hemline to be approximately 18 inches higher than it was only some 150 years later?

 

[sag38]

Back then they referred to the book of I Opinions a lot more than we do today. You know I Opinions 2:14 "To view a woman's ankles is a sin and to reveal her knee is a stoning offense."

 

[Zaac]

.... If A Particular Practice Is A Sin?

I know that in many (if not most) so-called "evangelical" churches, modesty in how females dress for public worship services seems to be a "non-issue" in these days.

OTOH, I am trying to figure out just what is the specific criteria to determine whether or not a woman's dress/skirt hemline is sinful.

Back in the 1800's (and probably earlier than that), if a woman's dress hemline even so much as revealed her ankles, that would have been considered as "scandalous and sinful."

I don't know exactly when it started, but now it seems as if it's OK in many so-called "evangelical churches" that hardly any body is bothered if a woman's dress/skirt hemline stops at a couple inches above her knees.

I guess what I'm trying to say that if it was considered to be "scandalous and sinful" back about 150 years ago for a woman's hemline to so much as to reveal her ankles, why then does it now seem to be acceptable for a woman's hemline to be approximately 18 inches higher than it was only some 150 years later?

I think this is a no-brainer as we keep an eye on what tends to turn heads. If a woman is running around wearing a skirt that shows all the way up into her thigh, that's too much. But the folks who talk about showing a woman's thigh are okay with their daughters running around at church in stuff like this:

Church has become embarassing. Back before the holidays, our youth led the worship service and I was utterly disgusted. These young high school girls were up on stage in front of the congregation with their form fitting tops tucked into their too skinny jeans. And it wasn't just an anomaly. They do it. Their mothers do it.

One lady told me afterwards that she needed to speak with the pastor because she told her husband to not even look that way.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Sin?

Who (or What) Determines If A Particular Practice Is A Sin?

Oh, did you open a can of worms! Not for the question, which is an excellent question for discussion and - better yet - self examination; but for the answers involved.

Some are easy. They are easy in that the Bible is rather clear on burglary, murder (not killing, get that down), adultery, fornication, perjury in the broadest sense and so forth. No, I'm not discounting Paul's lists of evil, just too lazy to re-type it all.

The difficulty is in those things which are not so well defined in either the Law, the Prophets or the New Testament. For instance, '... avoid the appearance of evil'. Does that mean I should wipe the smirk off my face when considering seducing that woman sitting down the pew from me? I'm avoiding the 'appearance', right?

The truth is, even as the universal church of God, we are affected by society and cultural influences.

In the final analysis, the senior pastor, deacons and elders (if such positions exist) set the tone for what conduct is 'permissible' and which is not.

 

[SolaSaint]

This brings up a more serious matter of church discipline or lack off discipline. The many churches I have attended over the years never do anything about what these young kids wear today. I have seen some very inappropriate skirts and shorts in worship and it makes all the men have to worry more about not looking than being involved in worship.

To answer the OP, I feel the HS is our guide here. I think we all know when it is inappropriate on how our kids dress at church. The HS gives us that inner conviction. Am I wrong here?

 

[agedman]

Why are these items even an issue in an assembly that is righteous and Godly?

Is not such a reflection of the corrupt heart and the perverted mind and the ungodly estate of the assembly?

Some pass off just any presentation as approved of God. But it isn't. When it is puffing up the presenter or presentation, drawing attention to the presenter and presentation, then it is robbing the glory from God.

The link below is a presentation of "Amazing Grace" that took place in Russia on a transport train. It is so obviously a self aggrandizing fleshly display. Watch to the very end when the performer congratulates himself. Disgusting!

Yet, some would actually praise this as a Godly outreach! Can't imagine a single apostle that would agree.

Folks, just because it sounds or is historically used in church does not mean that every time or every person presenting is proclaiming the truth of the gospel without bringing mockery!

Amazing Grace sung in Russia at Christmas

 

[Yeshua1]

.... If A Particular Practice Is A Sin?

I know that in many (if not most) so-called "evangelical" churches, modesty in how females dress for public worship services seems to be a "non-issue" in these days.

OTOH, I am trying to figure out just what is the specific criteria to determine whether or not a woman's dress/skirt hemline is sinful.

Back in the 1800's (and probably earlier than that), if a woman's dress hemline even so much as revealed her ankles, that would have been considered as "scandalous and sinful."

I don't know exactly when it started, but now it seems as if it's OK in many so-called "evangelical churches" that hardly any body is bothered if a woman's dress/skirt hemline stops at a couple inches above her knees.

I guess what I'm trying to say that if it was considered to be "scandalous and sinful" back about 150 years ago for a woman's hemline to so much as to reveal her ankles, why then does it now seem to be acceptable for a woman's hemline to be approximately 18 inches higher than it was only some 150 years later?

What if one is a missionary, and the native custom is to go naked?

Also, many times seems that personal convictions/preferences get elevated to levils of " THIS is what the standards must be!"

 

[agedman]

What if one is a missionary, and the native custom is to go naked?

Also, many times seems that personal convictions/preferences get elevated to levils of " THIS is what the standards must be!"

The believers are to be as Christlike in both the inner and outer "man" as possible.

Is it too much to ask for folks to look in a mirror and simply ask, "Does my appearance reflect me or Christ?"

Why is this not creating an unwritten and well understood standard of conduct and behavior throughout the assembly?

Modesty should never be an issue nor a distraction in the assembly, but the display of Godliness ever pointing to the Creator - not his creation.

 

[padredurand]

Wear pants.

 

[Yeshua1]

The believers are to be as Christlike in both the inner and outer "man" as possible.

Is it too much to ask for folks to look in a mirror and simply ask, "Does my appearance reflect me or Christ?"

Why is this not creating an unwritten and well understood standard of conduct and behavior throughout the assembly?

Modesty should never be an issue nor a distraction in the assembly, but the display of Godliness ever pointing to the Creator - not his creation.

I understand what you are saying, but this is quite subjective, as my grandparents, being wtrict Weslyyns/holiness folks, had him always wearing black suits, even while mowing his lawn, and she had dresses to the ankles!

many women are very attractive when dressed up, so no harm in that, IF they are not doing that "just to look GOOD!"

reminds me of J vernon megee story that one day a lady asked him if make up was a si, and he answered her "not on you mame, but all means, go apply some of it!"

 

[Gib]

Wear pants.

with a belt

 

[Judith]

Here is a good article.

"How does a woman discern the sometimes fine line between
proper dress and dressing to be the center of attention? The answer starts in the intent of the heart. A woman should examine her motives and goals for the way she dresses. Is her intent to show the grace and beauty of womanhood? Is it to reveal a humble heart devoted to worshipping God? Or is it to call attention to herself and flaunt her beauty? Or worse, to attempt to lure men sexually? A woman who focuses on worshipping God will consider carefully how she is dressed, because her heart will dictate her wardrobe and appearance." John MacArthur

A woman should ask herself what statement do my clothes make about my heart? In choosing what clothes to wear today, whose attention do I
desire and whose approval do I crave? Am I seeking to please and honor God or impress others? Is what I wear consistent with biblical values of modesty, self-control and respectable apparel, or does my clothing reveal an inordinate identification and fascination with sinful cultural values? Who am I trying to identify with through my clothing? Is the Word of God my standard or is it the latest fashion or simply my personal desire or comfort? Have I solicited the evaluation of other godly individuals regarding my wardrobe?
Does my clothing reveal an allegiance to the gospel or is
there any contradiction between my profession of faith and
my practice of godliness?

So, I’m ready to leave the house, but I still have to do a modesty check. What are some things I should look for as
I stand in front of my mirror?

When I am wearing a loose-fitting blouse or scoop-neck, can I
see anything when I lean over? If so, I need change my top.

A word on purse straps: How could a purse possibly be a
modesty concern? When you’re wearing the strap across your
chest. Regardless of the shirt you’ve got on this accentuates
your chest and creates a temptation for men.

Clothing with writing on the front of the top of the blouse or shirt draws attention to the breasts and needs to be avoided.

The same holds true for the skirt or pants. if there is writing on the backside it draws attention to her bottom and needs to be avoided.

If I am wearing a button-down top, I need to turn sideways and move around to see if there are any gaping holes that expose my chest. If there are, I’ve got to grab the sewing box and pin between the buttons.

Wearing sleeveless should be ruled out. The reason is that when she moves around others can see her bra?

We should never wear a spaghetti-strap, halter-top or see-through blouse? Not even pins will fix this problem! Most guys find these very unhelpful in their battle with the eyes. It’s time to go back to the closet.

Can I see the lace or seam of my bra through my shirt? In this
case, seamless bras are a better option.
One final shirt check: Does it reveal any part of my cleavage?
If so it needs correcting.

Does my midriff show when I raise my hands above my head?
Is my shirt just plain too tight or too thin so that the aureoles gives evidence through the material as in an outline. If the answer is "yes" to any
one of these questions, then I need to change my outfit.

Does my midriff (or underwear) show when I bend over or
lift my hands? If so, is it because my skirt or my pants are
too low? Either my shirt needs to be longer or I need to find
a skirt or pants that sit higher.

I also have to turn around to see if what I’m wearing is too
tight around my derriere, or if the outline of my underwear
shows. If so, I know what I have to do!

About shorts – Mostly not a good idea, but if chosen they should not draw attention to our sexuality. I suggest that they come down at least to the knee and even then there needs to be a set down check to be sure they are not too baggy around the legs so as to ride up and reveal unnecessary views.

The "sit-down" check applies to my skirt or dress as well. When I sit down my dress needs to cover my knees comfortably.
And I must remember to keep my skirt pulled down and my
knees together when I’m seated.

And speaking of skirts, watch out for those slits! Does it
reveal too much when I walk? Any flesh showing above the knees front or back is too much. Pins are also helpful here.

Before I leave, I need to give my skirt a "sunlight check." Can it seen through? If so, I need a slip, which is almost always today.

Wrap arounds can be a problem especially in setting down or in a wind. Even if one is striving to keep it from allowing an opening and revealing an immodest moment the constant tugging at it causes men to be attracted to the efforts and possible flashing.

Finally, I must remember to do this modesty check with my
shoes on. High-heels make my dress or skirt appear shorter.
And don’t forget – this all applies to formal wear as well.

A note on swimwear There is no such thing as store bought swimwear that is modest. Take a pair of not too tight jeans and cut them off around the knees. For a top wear a shirt that is not exposing the body and yet is comfortable. Under the clothing wear a full length swim suit rather then just underwear. Remember as women we need to take care not to clothe ourselves in a manner that causes our brothers to be tempted or bring dishonor on our Lord. These guys have a big battle to fight. Sometimes we will have to deny selves to follow Christ. While self sacrifice is seldom taught or practiced today for the godly woman seeking modesty it is a lifestyle.
Our lives are not our own, but we are bought with a price. When it comes to clothing let the woman who is of virtue been seen by her godly and modest attire and her actions be a witness to what a true Christian woman looks like.

"…Women should adorn themselves in respectable
apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with
braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but
with what is proper for women who profess godliness-
with good works."
1 Timothy 2:9-10

We are our brother's keeper, God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Oh, did you open a can of worms! Not for the question, which is an excellent question for discussion and - better yet - self examination; but for the answers involved.

Some are easy. They are easy in that the Bible is rather clear on burglary, murder (not killing, get that down), adultery, fornication, perjury in the broadest sense and so forth. No, I'm not discounting Paul's lists of evil, just too lazy to re-type it all.

The difficulty is in those things which are not so well defined in either the Law, the Prophets or the New Testament. For instance, '... avoid the appearance of evil'. Does that mean I should wipe the smirk off my face when considering seducing that woman sitting down the pew from me? I'm avoiding the 'appearance', right?

The truth is, even as the universal church of God, we are affected by society and cultural influences.

In the final analysis, the senior pastor, deacons and elders (if such positions exist) set the tone for what conduct is 'permissible' and which is not.

It really depends on how you define modest:

1 Timothy 2:9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

 

[OldRegular]

Judith, Thank you so much for your post. As the father of two lovely women and the grandfather of three lovely young women I really appreciate your remarks. I believe you covered all bases. As a father I had some input in what my daughters wore while they were under my care. I have no input in what my granddaughters wear though on occasion I make a comment. They still love me.

I would say this {with hesitation}: A teenage girl or a woman giving her Christian testimony in a mini-bikini or a thong is about as believable as the 70 virgins that await a Muslim terrorist!

As for men, they also should consider their dress. Cut away shorts are not appropriate in public, same goes for tank tops. Certainly neither are appropriate in Church service; in fact I think shorts of any kind are inappropriate in Worship service. If I were as creative with words as Judith is I am sure I could think of much more!

 

[OldRegular]

I understand what you are saying, but this is quite subjective, as my grandparents, being wtrict Weslyyns/holiness folks, had him always wearing black suits, even while mowing his lawn, and she had dresses to the ankles!

many women are very attractive when dressed up, so no harm in that, IF they are not doing that "just to look GOOD!"

reminds me of J vernon megee story that one day a lady asked him if make up was a si, and he answered her "not on you mame, but all means, go apply some of it!"

I keep wondering how you get past the spell checker. You got it turned off, maybe?

 

[Yeshua1]

I keep wondering how you get past the spell checker. You got it turned off, maybe?

is there one?

 

[kyredneck]

NOW he asks!

 

[prophet]

It really depends on how you define modest:

1 Timothy 2:9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

The definition, prior to 1828, of modesty is found in the scripture above, namely: "not ...costly..."