Who or What is the Creator of our Dead Soul?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I just found a real old copy in a place I forgot to look.:thumbsup:

 

[billwald]

The origin of the human soul has been argued for thousands of years. Some possibilities:

1. The soul in inherited from the parents

2. God creates a new soul for each person

3. Souls are recirculated - reincarnation

4. There is a pool of new souls in Heaven waiting to be born.

 

[Marcia]

The origin of the human soul has been argued for thousands of years. Some possibilities:

Yes, this list is right.

1. The soul in inherited from the parents

Most non-Catholic Christians believe this; one is born with a soul as part of the natural birth.

2. God creates a new soul for each person

I think this is the Catholic view, or at least I've read it is.

3. Souls are recirculated - reincarnation

Hinduism, New Age, and to a certain extent, Buddhism, though Buddhists do not think the total identity/self is reborn since they deny the existence of a real self. They speak of aggregates.

4. There is a pool of new souls in Heaven waiting to be born

This is the Mormon view: God and his wife are producing spirit children in heaven that need to be born on earth. Also, this is Gnostic.

 

[Amy.G]

Interesting. I've always believed that God "breathed" life (soul) into each human being at the moment of conception.

Does that view have a name?

 

[Marcia]

Interesting. I've always believed that God "breathed" life (soul) into each human being at the moment of conception.

Does that view have a name?

Yes, it does but I can't think of it now. It's usually a Catholic view.

I think God breathed life into Adam but not after that. It does not say that about Eve, because she was not the first human and she was taken from Adam's rib/side. We are born naturally with souls intact. This view, imo, is more in keeping with the Bible.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia, how or why do you see your position more in keeping with Scripture?

 

[paganini_4184]

truth that shall set man free

By the way Paganini, searching for the truth will not be our ruin, for it is the truth that shall set man free.

What truth are you referring too? Also support it by scripture so that we have it clear in our minds. Thereby one may be able to begin to follow the thread of your thinking.

Paganini

"We have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every mans conscience in the sight of God." (2 Cor. 4:2)

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Paganini: What truth are you referring too? Also support it by scripture so that we have it clear in our minds. Thereby one may be able to begin to follow the thread of your thinking.

HP: We are dealing in this thread about the Author of our souls, whether or not man can generate a spiritual soul or that God is in fact the soul Creator of mans soul. Bear in mind Scripture is not the only source of truth. Certainly God has given us Scripture, but God has also granted to man the Holy Spirit, first truths of reason, powers of logic and reason, matters of fact, truths of immutable justice, etc. to guide us in our quest for truth. It is our duty to utilize every God inspired avenue in our quest for truth, harmonizing every source of God inspired truth to the best of our abilities, and to avoid absurdities at all cost.

I am trying in this thread to get us to recognize the logical ends of our arguments or positions. When we claim and present certain doctrines as truth, it often has great ramifications on other doctrines as well. Our theology can certainly have many uncertainties within its scope, but we should never entertain absurdities.

In this thread, the backdrop, or the underlying theological position, is the doctrine of original sin. If in fact the doctrine of original sin is correct, the soul is stained with sin from its inception. The creator of the soul, if a Sovereign Creator, must of necessity be the author of sin, for it is within the sovereign power of a creator to either create the soul as sinful or not. If the Creator of the soul is Sovereign, of necessity He must choose to instill sin, showing a clear desire to create the soul sinful as He does. Is sin more powerful than a Creator God? Does Adam’s sin coerce God into forcing Him to create all subsequent souls wickedly sinful? One could only conclude that it is God’s will to create sinful men as they are created if original sin is true and God is the Author of the soul. God does nothing He does not will. If one believes God is the Author of the soul, of necessity he must also believe sin ‘is by design’ God’s plan IF one holds to the doctrine of original sin.

Now I fully realize that there are many today holding to the notion of original sin that have not thought through their belief as they should, and would like to distance themselves from the logic ends of that belief, but intellectual honesty demands if one has a belief, they must also accept the logical ends of such a belief. I know many that today will flat out tell you that God is indeed the Author of sin and that God put it in Adam’s heart to sin.(Baptist folk I know personally by the way.) I look at those as indeed wrong but at least consistent with their views, although consistently wrong I might add. What I cannot understand is men and women that accept certain dogmas as fact, such as original sin, then try to spend their lives claiming others misrepresent their views, denying the logical ends of their own dogmas, when the logical ends of their positions are brought to their attention.

So tell us Paganini, is original sin a concept supported by Scripture? Who is the Author of our souls? Is it man or is it God?

I should add this tid bit as well. IF you believe it is man, and that by physical or spiritual generation, you will have to make man a sovereign creator in order to place a disconnect between God and the creation of sin. If man is not a sovereign creator, 'the cause,' and as such 'the blame' for perpetuated sin, falls right back on God, does it not?

 

[Amy.G]

Yes, it does but I can't think of it now. It's usually a Catholic view.

I think God breathed life into Adam but not after that. It does not say that about Eve, because she was not the first human and she was taken from Adam's rib/side. We are born naturally with souls intact. This view, imo, is more in keeping with the Bible.

A Catholic view?

Say it ain't so!!


I think of when Jesus came to the disciples and "breathed" on them and they received the Holy Spirit. So I see in scripture many places where the "breath" of God brings life. But I've honestly never done an in depth study on it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy, do you have any silver crosses on your walls at home? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, do you have any silver crosses on your walls at home? :smilewinkgrin:

No. What do you mean? You lost me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is a thought to consider. If in fact the soul is so dead that it is impossible for the will to choose anything other than to sin and that continually, the concept of doing something right would have to be non existent, would it not? The conscience could not convict and the Holy Spirit could not provide any motivation to do anything other than to sin, clearly making the power of sin in complete domination.

Just think of what the would mean raising children? Regardless of the training or example we might share, our children could not do anything but sin. Impossible for even a child to share apart from selfish motivation? Impossible for even a child to share love, obey, or seek God in their prayers apart from some sinister selfish motivation? I do not know about anyone else, but I can tell you one thing, God spoke to me even as a child and I responded to His voice. Certainly I was no perfect child, but I can clearly remember hearing God’s voice at the feet of my praying mother and obeying God’s voice as a child. Certainly in retrospect it might have been a vacillating obedience, but obedience in many respects, enough so to clearly indicate God was at work in my life from an early age and clear evidence that Satan held no strangle hold over my life. Oh the blessings I have enjoyed, and clearly at times spurned, that I was privileged to enjoy being raised by Godly parents!

Dead to God before salvation or unable to respond in love towards God and that from birth? Honestly, at times I believe no one can be more out of tune with reality and the workings of the Spirit of God than some theologians.

By the way Marcia, I am helping watch six of my grandchildren today. Have mercy on me! I have at least two harmonicas playing in my ears in different keys no less, almost continuosly.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Has anyone besides myself witnessed a child under a burden for another, clearly before any age of accountability, crying out their heart to God on their knees for another in need? If not, I wonder if in fact parents fail to set the right example at times, and if that could be a factor in the belief of 'sinful from birth unable to act from any other motive than selfishness' some would have us believe?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: No. What do you mean? You lost me.

HP: I was just kidding you Amy. Having been in numerous homes of Catholics, they seem to have an affinity for silver crosses etc. in their homes. I am not saying that is not a good thing, just mentioning a noticeable observation in light of Marcia's 'Catholic' remark.:thumbsup::saint:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Oh the tender moments with my God I spent as a child! I can remember leaving the tent our family was staying in early in the morning before daylight to go to the ‘Prayer tent” to witnesses and join a group of adults pouring out their hearts to God in the waking hours before dawn. If you are looking for that act of seeking God as mere curiosity or that of a child exhibiting the mere necessitated results of some sinful nature bent to sin and that continually, I would kindly differ with you.

Thank you God for my godly Christian heritage, not only by my parents but others my godly parents placed me in touch with!

Oh the responsibility that is ours as parents and grandparents! Help me God!

 

[Marcia]

Here is a thought to consider. If in fact the soul is so dead that it is impossible for the will to choose anything other than to sin and that continually, the concept of doing something right would have to be non existent, would it not?

No one has agreed with you that we have dead souls, HP. I said at the very start of this thread that being born spiritually dead means we are born separated from God and need redemption.

 

[Marcia]

A Catholic view?

Say it ain't so!!


I think of when Jesus came to the disciples and "breathed" on them and they received the Holy Spirit. So I see in scripture many places where the "breath" of God brings life. But I've honestly never done an in depth study on it.

Jesus was giving them the Holy Spirit because it was before Pentecost. This is actually a controversial passage but they already had life - that is, the breath of life - so this action had nothing to do with that.

God breathed the breath of life once as far as man is concerned, and it was into Adam. Our second birth, through faith in Christ, brings the Holy Spirit.

First breath - physical life for man, Adam being the representative

Second birth. second breath - spiritual life via faith in Christ by the grace of God, bringing the Holy Spirit

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, how or why do you see your position more in keeping with Scripture?

See what I wrote to Amy above.

The Bible only mentions God breathing life into man at the beginning, when He created Adam (except for Rev. 11:11, which is future, when the 2 slain witnesses lie dead for 3 1/2 days and are brought back to life by God).

I think the view that the soul is created via natural birth enhances the intrinsic value of man. Otherwise, there is room to ask or wonder: when does God create the soul in the unborn - at conception, right after conception, before birth at some point, etc.? It seems like the Lord would enable each person to be born with a soul as part of being human.

But this is really off topic. There is no such thing as a dead soul, as I said before. Being born spiritually dead means being born separated from God. We are born without a relationship with God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: No one has agreed with you that we have dead souls, HP. I said at the very start of this thread that being born spiritually dead means we are born separated from God and need redemption.

HP: Marcia. I have conversed with many individuals over the years that would in fact declare the soul to be ‘dead.’ I would be interested to know how you might explain the state of one that is born separated from God. If that was in reality true, guidance and conviction via the Holy Spirit early in life of later for that matter would be impossible. Do you even have a concept in your mind of an age of accountability and what might be reasonably predicated of one before and after, or do you reject the idea altogether? I am trying to see where we might start so as not to simply speak past or around each other but rather speak directly to the points where we differ.

As I have said before, I do not believe a child is born with a salvation relationship with God, but I am fully convinced God draws children often from and age much prior to the age of accountability. I do believe God deals often with small children via their conscience at an early age and that to me is clearly a relationship of sorts, although clearly not necessarily a salvic one. For starters, until the age of accountability they need no salvation. How can a child be saved before even the concept of salvation cannot be comprehended? I can remember being counseled concerning salvation as a very young boy when I honestly could not grasp the concept. When asked if I was saved, I honestly could not answer in the affirmative, but neither could I say I was not at the time. I was sincerely confused as to ‘when’ one could say, yes, I am saved. I fully realize I was very young, but I can remember the place and individuals involved and the honest confusion in my mind. Still the same, I felt I in fact did have a relationship with God to some degree, just too young and immature to understand the terminology.

So I might differ with the terminology of saying one has no relationship with God prior to salvation. Even Judas had had a relationship with God, a familiar friend that in the end betrayed Him. I would ask if in fact Judas had a relationship with Christ on some level? I would say yes, even to the point of entertaining a hope of eternal life at some point and being a partaker of the ministry. You may or may not go that far, but to deny all relationship with Christ (God manifest in the flesh) is outside of what I would denote reason.

My conclusion would be that no one needs a salvic experience with God, nor can they have one, prior to the age of accountability. Individuals prior to the age of accountability, and even in some cases antecedent to accountability, some can indeed have a relationship (although not salvic necessarily) with God yet in the end be lost or possibly entering into a salvic relationship at some point. I believe Jesus had a relationship on some level with many sinners, some who became saved and others that most likely did not. I would distinguish between a salvic relationship and a simple relationship where God is leading and interacting and drawing souls to Him often by merely convicting power. I do not believe His drawing is irresistible.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[Marcia]

HP: Marcia. I have conversed with many individuals over the years that would in fact declare the soul to be ‘dead.’ I would be interested to know how you might explain the state of one that is born separated from God. If that was in reality true, guidance and conviction via the Holy Spirit early in life of later for that matter would be impossible.

What do you mean? We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit after we believe. The Holy Spirit can and does draw unbelievers to Christ, but unbelievers are separated from God. This does not thwart the Holy Spirit.

How can one be born in a relationship with God?

Do you even have a concept in your mind of an age of accountability and what might be reasonably predicated of one before and after, or do you reject the idea altogether? I am trying to see where we might start so as not to simply speak past or around each other but rather speak directly to the points where we differ.

We don't need to start anywhere. I have posted on this topic numerous times. I have stated my position here several times.

As I have said before, I do not believe a child is born with a salvation relationship with God, but I am fully convinced God draws children often from and age much prior to the age of accountability.

So if they are not born saved, what state are they in? One is either unsaved and not in relationship with God or saved and in relationship with God.

Even Judas had had a relationship with God, a familiar friend that in the end betrayed Him. I would ask if in fact Judas had a relationship with Christ on some level? I would say yes, even to the point of entertaining a hope of eternal life at point and being a partaker of the ministry. You may or may not go that far, but to deny all relationship with Christ (God manifest in the flesh) is outside of what I would denote reason.

Judas did not have a saving relationship with Christ. Judas is somewhat different in that he knew Christ personally in the flesh. But he did not have a saving relationship. I can post scriptures to that effect if you ask.