Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP : I agree completely.:thumbsup: I will let you explain that to the list for us.:smilewinkgrin:
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Who Was Made Lower? God or Angels?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
HP : I agree completely.:thumbsup: I will let you explain that to the list for us.:smilewinkgrin:
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
Christ wasn't created. He, as a member of the Trinity, existed with the Father and Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself is the Creator (John 1). God, as creator, can never be lower than any created being. Jesus, in the Hypostatic Union, has two natures that subsist in one Person.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Was one of those nature 'made' or had they both existed from all eternity? Maybe the 'made' in the verse is simply in error?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I believe it is Hebrews 5 that speaks to the fact that Christ "learned obedience" through "strong crying with tears". Not something He would do in his pre-incarnate not-emptied state as God the Son.
Christ said "I thirst" at the cross.
He said "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful even unto death" going to Gethsemane.
Christ begged the Father "If it be possible let this cup pass from me" in the garden.
Christ stated without reservation "I can of my own self do nothing".
The devil tempts Christ in Matt 4 to EAT when he is starving. How is that a "sin". Does the Word of God say "do not EAT if you are starving"??
No.
Does the Word of God say "Do not EAT if you are starving - IF the devil is telling you to eat".??
no.
the only reason that eating would be a sin in Matt 4 -- is that Jesus would have had to exercise CREATOR GOD power to turn stone into bread. In fact Satan puts it in the form of a TEST saying "IF you are the Son of God TURN this stone into bread" -- Satan tempts Christ to PROVE that He is indeed GOD - by choosing to exercise His own CREATOR GOD-POWER -- and Christ refuses.
Notice Christ does not say "Sorry CAN't DO that - I don't have that power anymore". NOR does Satan think Christ "CAN't do it". Satan knows full well Christ CAN do it and that if Christ DOES use his own God-power instead of choosing daily to rely on the Father for ALL things -- then Christ would have failed in his mission to live among us as man.
It is that very TEST that not only shows us that Christ COULD be tempted - but also it shows us that He STILL had access to God-Power IF He chose to use it.
Notice that when the disciples were trying to rescue Christ from the mob - Jesus said "do you not know that I can call 12 legions of Angels if I so choose".
Jesus always had the ability to ACCESS His God power - His temptation was NOT to do it - "no matter what"!
We CAN NOT be tempted at that level.
Christ could have - by simply thinking a specific thought - CHANGE the entire current of feeling and thinking at his trial, torture and crucifixion. But He chose not to THINK that thought! So that He might save mankind!
He will never have any such temptation. Should we ever be tormented for our faith - we will be free to think all day long - thoughts that are of the form "Oh how I wish that all here would be born again saints and give up their evil ways -- I wish it with all my heart and soul".
Under the extreme torments of the dark ages - the saints were not so dainty as to think "Of course I do not wish that thought in anyway that might inconvenience anyone torturing me this moment".
in Christ,
Bob
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
BR, and how was He tempted in all points 'as we are?'
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I think that the temptation to either destroy his torturers or at the very least to soften their determination to inflict pain on him - was beyond our ability to measure.
He was tempted beyond our measure to the degree that his nature was beyond ours.
However -- I also think that he hit his thumb with the hammer from time to time as well.
But he did not have a depraved morally corrupt nature -- He did not need a Savior.
He was never a lost sinner debating whether to remain in a life of sin - or to renounce it all and humbly admit his sin to God and then appeal to God for mercy and salvation.
He never experienced the Romans 7 "principle of Sin in me at war with the law of my mind"
He was never tempted to say to Himself "My sin is too great - God will never forgive me - I may as well give up hope"
He never lived the life of a soldier who knowing his war crimes - must live his life by faith and trust in a pardoning Savior, resisting the temptation to turn to drugs or drink to forget his past.
He never lived the life of a drunk who must choose to go home to his family - admit to his shame and guilt, and check himself into a clinic for the good of himself and his family.
He was not a crack-baby growing up from birth with an addiction to drugs.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In the incarnation the human nature of Christ is "made". He did not have a human nature before that point in time.
"a body thou hast prepared for me"
in Christ,
Bob
Christ, in human nature, wasn't created lower than the angels. When Hebrews said He was made a little lower than the angels, that literally means He decreased in rank. That same language is used when John the Baptist said "He must increase and I must decrease." I'm going to decrease in rank and be inferior.
The context of that statement declares that this occured at the cross. At the cross Jesus was made to be sin, meaning He literally became a sin bearer. The sins of His people was laid upon Him and He was treated by God as if He had committed those sins. The full punishment of sins was laid upon Him. The One who created the angels, for a short time, was made lower than them. But now Hebrews says we see Him crowned with glory and honor. Jesus suffered and died what is to man a death of dishonor. He was hung on a cross, and the scriptures say cursed is any man that is hung on a tree. He was crucified openly for all to see, as was mocked during the process. His visage was marred more than any man. Etc, etc. But now we see Him crowned with glory and honor.
The context of that statement declares that this occured at the cross. At the cross Jesus was made to be sin, meaning He literally became a sin bearer. The sins of His people was laid upon Him and He was treated by God as if He had committed those sins. The full punishment of sins was laid upon Him. The One who created the angels, for a short time, was made lower than them. But now Hebrews says we see Him crowned with glory and honor. Jesus suffered and died what is to man a death of dishonor. He was hung on a cross, and the scriptures say cursed is any man that is hung on a tree. He was crucified openly for all to see, as was mocked during the process. His visage was marred more than any man. Etc, etc. But now we see Him crowned with glory and honor.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
HP: How do you arrive at that conclusion? “Who was made a little lower than the angels FOR the suffering of death.” If I was to say that I made a soap box derby ‘for’ a race, does that mean the making of the soap box actually occurred at the derby itself?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
HP: Two things are addressed in this verse. 1. How He was created 2. For what purpose he came.
There is nothing in this verse or between the lines that make the point you are trying to make. Because the purpose for why He came is indeed mentioned, it by no means disannuls the stated fact of how He was created as being clearly and directly addressed in this verse.
HP: Two things are addressed in this verse. 1. How He was created 2. For what purpose he came.
There is nothing in this verse or between the lines that make the point you are trying to make. Because the purpose for why He came is indeed mentioned, it by no means disannuls the stated fact of how He was created as being clearly and directly addressed in this verse.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
RAdam, you certainly cannot support that idea from Scripture.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
What you have presented appears not to be a translation but rather an interpolation of Scripture. Can you site the source of that quote?
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Yes I can. The greek translated as "made lower than" means to decrease in rank. The word for also means by, in fact the translators placed that as an alternate rendering in the center column (originally the margin). The whole context is talking about His sufferings and death, with only one text discussing His incarnation much later in the chapter. At the cross Christ was made to be sin, and was made a little lower than the angels, but now He is crowned with glory and honor and that's how we see Him.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Ah.. an Interpolation, as opposed to a translation, just as I assumed. Maybe Marcia will disagree.
How is that interpolation? I told you what the greek word translated "made lower than" means, which proves creation wasn't in mind. I told you that the typical rendering of the word dia (rendered "for") is "by", which the translators also placed in the margin as an alternate rendering. Also, the second most commong rendering of dia is "through". I told you the context speaks of His death. Where did I interpolate?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: You can tell another what you want to make of any word in any verse but it simply does not make it so. There is nothing in the definition of the word ‘lower’ that would in any way necessitate the stringent restraints you try to place on it.