Who/What/Where is Babylon in Revelation 17 & 18

[lastday]

Lastday

John Cloakey,

You revive a discussion on Babylon the Great with 79 posts as of August. At that time Hank and Kyrednick were sparring
over the question of whether
the Jews have suffered God's Judgment for their sin of rejecting His Plan.

Originally Posted by HankD View Post
Huh? who said anything about the Jews persecuting the church?

Kyrednek had observed correctly that the Jews deserved God's Judgment:

Just what do you think I was talking about when I asked you if you gave the Jews 'a free pass' on their blood drenched history? It seems to me that in the typical dispensationaist's fashion, you're fixated on the crimes of the RCC, but the Jews get a free pass for their crimes. This thread is about WHO is the Harlot of Revelation. Correct? I say it's apostate Judaism, and you say it is the RCC. Correct?

Hank realizes that Judgment has come on Jews and the RCC realizes its guilt

My point is: The RCC has ackowledged their wrongdoing. The Jews have not.

In Kyrednek's view, God's Judgment on Babylon is a Judgment on Israel rather
than a total Judgment on Mystery Babylon for her guilt in "shedding the blood of all the Saints". Rev.18:24. Mystery Babylon includes the "nations and rulers" from the time of Nimrod to the last martyr killed by the Beast during the 42 months of his endtime rule over all the nations!

The Apocalyptic Judgment of Mystery Babylon occurs in two "falls": First, to start the endtime period of 1260 days as Ten Kings "destroy the City (that rules the kings of earth) with fire in one hour". Rev.17:10-18. They "give their power and authority to the Beast until the words of God are fulfilled on the Day of Christ's appearance with all the Saints...and Babylon's 2nd "fall" occurs as all the world's cities, including Babylon, are destroyed during the Hour of Judgment. The first "fall" precedes that of Rev.14:8 which, in turn, anticipates the 2nd "fall of Babylon" during the Hour of Judgment on the Last Day!! Rev.16:18-21.

Both stages of God's Judgment involve the final preparation of God's former
People, Israel (as well as Christians)...for "many will be purged, purified and refined" during the Endtime. Dan.12:9-11. "Judgment must begin with the Household of God". I Pet.4:17 and Paul says "with much tribulation believers must enter the Kingdom of God". But, while the Jews will "mourn and beg to escape God's wrath on the Day of Wrath, believers will love NOT their life unto death". Rev.12:10-11. The Saints must be prepared in advance so as to make Israel "jealous" (Rom.11:11) when they "see their Messiah coming with the Saints"!!! Mel

 

[OldRegular]

Babylon represents the Apostate or counterfeit church!

Revelation 17:1-7, 18, KJV
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

We see from the above passage that

1.] This woman sitteth upon many waters. From Revelation 17:15 we see the many waters identified as: peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
2.] This woman is arrayed in scarlet and purple and adorned with gold and precious stones.
3.] The woman commits fornication with the kings of the earth.
4.] The woman persecutes the Church, is in fact drunk with the blood of the Saints.
5.] The woman rides a beast; this beast is the same one that John saw coming out of the sea [Revelation 13:1].
6.] The woman is identified as a great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.
7.] The woman is under the judgment of God.

Who is this woman, this ‘great’ city, what does she represent? It seems obvious, contrary to the interpretation of some, that the woman is not the beast since she sits upon the beast. There is, however, an unholy union between the woman and the beast.

To understand the identity of the woman, the great city, we must first understand that the Book of Revelation is a book of contrasts. In Revelation we are shown, through a series of word pictures, what God is pleased to reveal to the Apostle John.

1.] We see a glorious picture of the triune God in His throne room contrasted with the unholy, the counterfeit trinity: the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet.
2.] We see, as perhaps nowhere else in Scripture, the sovereignty of God in contrast with the temporary and limited power of the dragon, Satan.
3.] We see the earthly tribulation of the Saints in contrast to the glory that is laid up in store for them.
4.] We are shown the eternal security of those who bear the seal of God in contrast to the judgment that awaits those who bear the mark of the beast.

Also John is shown, and we again see through his eyes, two women in graphic and profound contrast. Both of these women are also identified as cities and each is shown to have a significant impact on the conflict between good and evil in world history. In Chapter 12 we were introduced to the first woman, a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars [Revelation 12:1, KJV]. This woman represented spiritual Israel of the Old Testament and the Church of the New Testament. She is the Bride of Jesus Christ, the total number of the elect, those who are redeemed to God through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. She is also identified as a city, the New Jerusalem. The Apostle writes later of the Bride as follows:

Revelation 19:7,8, KJV
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

and of the city, New Jerusalem, and the Bride, as follows:

Revelation 21:2, KJV
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The Apostle Paul speaks of the Church, the Bride, as follows:

2 Corinthians 11:2, KJV
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

Now in Chapter 17 we are introduced to a second woman, the great whore [Revelation 17:1, KJV], stark contrast to the bride of Jesus Christ, a chaste virgin. This woman is not only a harlot with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, she is the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the earth. [It must be understood that the “fornication” under consideration in this passage is spiritual in nature, not sexual.] This woman, this harlot, is introduced briefly in Chapter 11 as the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified [Revelation 11:8, KJV]. In Chapters 14 and again in Chapter 16 we see the judgment of God on this woman.

In light of the sharp contrast presented between these two women we can only conclude that since the first woman represents the Church, the bride of Jesus Christ, the second must represent the counterfeit or apostate church, the bride of the antichrist. The use of the term ‘apostate church’ does not mean that those who constitute this group have ever been one with Jesus Christ and His Church, that is, truly saved and then ‘fallen away’ or lost that salvation. Rather, they were never one with Jesus Christ. Those who are truly saved, those whom God has accepted in the Beloved [Ephesians 1:6], will never fall away [John 6:37-40].


Views regarding the identity of the harlot similar to that presented above are taken by the New Geneva Bible and Hoeksema [Behold He Cometh].

The New Geneva Bible writes [page 2006]:

One final counterfeit figure exists, namely Babylon the harlot, the counterfeit of the bride of Christ.

Hoeksema writes [page 566]:

.... this woman is a harlot, and as such representative not of the true but of the apostate church. A harlot in Scripture is a married woman who has forsaken her rightful husband, has become unfaithful, and whores after other men, who are strangers. And so is the false, or the apostate church. Committing spiritual fornication, she bears the name of church. She stands outwardly in covenant relation to the God of salvation. She enjoys all the spiritual blessings of that relation to God. But essentially she has broken the pledge of faith and truth and separated herself from the covenant God, in order to ally herself with the powers of the world and the kingdom of antichrist. She has all the outward appearance of the church, with ministry and office bearers, with the outward signs of the Word and the sacraments. She is busy in all kinds of nominally Christian work, and has perhaps more organizations than any other local church on earth. But she denies the truth, forsakes her God and Saviour, tramples under foot the blood of the new covenant. In a word, Babylon, as the harlot woman, is the apostate church in this dispensation.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

OldRegular,
Excellent Quote:
Views regarding the identity of the harlot similar to that presented above are taken by the New Geneva Bible and Hoeksema [Behold He Cometh].

The New Geneva Bible writes [page 2006]:

One final counterfeit figure exists, namely Babylon the harlot, the counterfeit of the bride of Christ.

Hoeksema writes [page 566]:

....

this woman is a harlot, and as such representative not of the true but of the apostate church. A harlot in Scripture is a married woman who has forsaken her rightful husband, has become unfaithful, and whores after other men, who are strangers. And so is the false, or the apostate church. Committing spiritual fornication, she bears the name of church. She stands outwardly in covenant relation to the God of salvation. She enjoys all the spiritual blessings of that relation to God. But essentially she has broken the pledge of faith and truth and separated herself from the covenant God, in order to ally herself with the powers of the world and the kingdom of antichrist. She has all the outward appearance of the church, with ministry and office bearers, with the outward signs of the Word and the sacraments. She is busy in all kinds of nominally Christian work, and has perhaps more organizations than any other local church on earth. But she denies the truth, forsakes her God and Saviour, tramples under foot the blood of the new covenant. In a word, Babylon, as the harlot woman, is the apostate church in this dispensation.

We await the "short time" during which Babylon "rules the Kings of earth"!
Israel's discovery of oil, IMO, will quicken the process for Mideast peace!!
All religions, rulers and realms must succumb to the rulership of this City!!!
Mel at www.lastday.net

 

[OldRegular]

lastday

Someone on this thread claimed that Joseph Mede was a dispensationalist. The following statement is made about Mede and the end times:

http://medlibrary.org/medwiki/Joseph_Mede

"His Clavis Apocalyptica[] (1627 in Latin, English translation 1643, Key of the Revelation Searched and Demonstrated[) was a widely influential work on the interpretation of the Book of Revelation. It projected the end of the world by 1716: possibly in 1654.

Christopher Hill considers that Mede deliberately refrained from publication[9]. Posthumously were published interpretation of the Book of Daniel[], and The Apostasy of Latter Times[]. On demons, he took the position that possession was to be explained as mental illness[]. His collected Works were published in 1665, editor John Worthington."

So if I were you, in light of Mede's experience and that of all who try to predict the Second Coming, I would not hold my breath waiting for the discovery of oil in Israel! Remember all the noise made about the year 2000?

 

[Amy.G]

Hey OR! Good to see you again. :wavey:

 

[kyredneck]

Babylon represents the Apostate or counterfeit church........

And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18:24

OR, what Church has killed prophets?

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

 

[kyredneck]

....This woman sitteth upon many waters......

From post #61:

And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Rev 17:15

For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath. Acts 15:21 (Follow Paul in Acts. In every city in every nation he went to, he went to the synagogues first.)

Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. Acts 2:5 (Don't let the word 'devout' interfere. Wherever the true Israel dwelt the Harlot was there also; not all Isarael is of Israel)

The destruction of Jerusalem literally was cutting the head off of apostate Judaism. It was the center of their universe.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

OldRegular,
You wrote:

In light of all who try to predict the Second Coming, I would not hold my breath waiting for the discovery of oil in Israel! Remember all the noise made about the year 2000?

Ezekiel 38-39 pinpoints the invasion of Israel in the "last days" that results in nearly total slaughter of her enemies and the recognition by both Israel and the nations that God supports Israel. My argument assumes the discovery of oil, predicted for the "last days to be found at the boot of Asher", is a most likely prize that stirs surrounding nations to "take the spoil". Its discovery would certainly enhance the stimulus to establish Mideast peace!

Many years have passed without success in seeking Mideast peace. But to get that peace, I believe Mystery Babylon must first become the center and administrator of global matters of trade and the economy of nations. There needs to be a greater incentive to establish peace and this city's authority as a means to administer the distribution of oil which will soon become a very hot issue due to China's explosive needs. Security fences will be removed in Israel and nations will invade. God will then destroy the invaders so that it takes "seven years to bury the weapons" before the Endtime arrives for Ten Kings to "destroy Babylon with fire in one hour"!!

There is no product greater than "oil" to create the crisis of the "end of time".
The need for Mideast Peace is one of the greatest global challenges for man.
I see that challenge aggregated by Israel's discovery of oil within five years.
Mel

 

[kyredneck]

The Woman of Rev 12 and the Harlot of Rev 17, at the time of the writing (the sixth head), are both distinctly Jewish (they are not all Israel, that are of Israel). Note that both these women have offspring. IMO, because the seventh head was yet to come and both these women of Revelation have children, gives merit to a futuristic and/or idealistic, ongoing view of many of the prophecies of Revelation, even to this day. In fact, there were periods of of 'great tribulation' during the times of each of the beasts, i.e. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Holy Roman Empire, which gives merit to a historical view of the book also (Ecc 1:9). This is one of the main reasons that I am a partial preterist and not full.

The Woman,as the children of the heavenly Zion, was persecuted by these beasts (Gen 3:15). The Harlot, as the unfaithful wife of Jehovah, committed fornication with these beasts (Ezek 23:3,5,14,30; Acts 2:23; etc., there's many more).

There's not a lot of scripture to go on concerning events after the destruction of Jerusalem. The ten kings of the seventh head were to make war with the Lamb. We, as Baptists, are acutely aware of the persecutions the Church suffered at the hands of the Holy Roman Empire. The ten kings of the seventh head were also to hate the Harlot, eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. Herein lies the realization of the punishments and curses outlined in Lev 26 & Dt 28 (etc.) on the Jews for not hearkening unto the voice of Jehovah, i.e., the persecutions, pogroms, expulsions, etc, that the Jews have experienced down through the last two millennia.

As the Mother of Harlots, Alfred Edersheim (himself raised a Jew) shows that Gnosticism had it's roots in apostate Judaism and Hassell states that the most famous Gnostic was the Alexandrian Jew, Valentinus. The Judaizers of the early Church most definitely came from Judaism, and even consider that Karl Marx himself was a Jew; and consider this concerning ISLAM:

Excerpts from:
'The Jewish Foundation of Islam' (1933) by Charles Cutler Torrey
http://www.truthnet.org/islam/Jewish/

“The doctrine that the foundation of Islam was mainly Christian has held the field for nearly half a century. It is completely refuted......Certain theories too hastily propounded by the greatest European authorities in this field have dominated all subsequent research.”

“Unquestionably the first impression gained by a reader of the quran Koran is that Muhammad Mohammed had received the material of his new faith and practice mainly from the Jews of the Hijaz. On almost every page are encountered either episodes of Hebrew history, or familiar Jewish legends, or details of rabbinical law or usage, or arguments which say in effect that Islam is the faith of Abraham and Moses.....”

“These facts, if taken by themselves, would obviously indicate that the Arabian prophet's religious education had been thoroughly Jewish.....”

“'This quran quranic Koranic teaching is Gnostic,' or 'This is Manichaean'-in our dense ignorance of the type of Christianity that was known in the Hijaz, and especially, the type of Judaism that was actually present in Mekka in muhammad Mohammed's time, and from which we know him to have derived such a very large proportion of what we find in the quran Koran......”

“....there is no clear evidence that muhammad Mohammed had ever received instruction from a Christian teacher, while many facts testify emphatically to the contrary; and that, on the other hand, the evidence that he gained his Christian material either from Jews in Mekka, or from what was well known and handed about in the Arabian cities, is clear, consistent, and convincing....”

“...The fact of the Israelite city of Khaibar, "the richest city of the Hijaz," is one very significant item among many. Such a civilization is not produced in a short time. Native Arab tribes "converted" in the manner supposed would have been certain, we should imagine, to welcome and accept the prophet of their own number who promised them a truly Arabian continuation of Judaism adapted to their own special needs, while based squarely on the Hebrew scriptures. But the Jews of Mekka, Medina, and the rest of the Hijaz knew better, and would not yield an inch....I have thus far been speaking mainly of the great number of Arabs professing the Israelite faith, in muhammad Mohammed's time.....”

“....The quran Koran repeatedly speaks of "the children of Israel" as the most favored people on earth-up to the time of Islam; and in addressing them the prophet always reminds them that they know their scriptures.....”

“Far more important, however, is the testimony contained in the quran Koran. The Israelite tribes with their rabbis, their books, sacred and secular, their community of faith and action, and their living contact with the past, are there; they are no phantom. All through the quran Koran there is evidence of a Jewish culture, which muhammad Mohammed greatly admired, and of Jewish learning, which he very imperfectly assimilated.

 

[Logos1]

The destruction of Jerusalem literally was cutting the head off of apostate Judaism. It was the center of their universe.

True and not to understand this is not to understand the Jewish mentality of that age. The Jewish writers wouldn't devote so much of the book of Revelation to a heathen city. Only Jerusalem whether by that name or by another name (as was necessary to escape persecution) would be worthy of so much ink. Jewish prophets write about Jerusalem. How would a city thousands of years in the future be something people of that age could relate too?

Jewish prophets don't make predictions about future cities or Kingdoms that don't relate to Jerusalem. If Babylon is not Jerusalem how would it tie in to Jerusalem. All the prophecy in Daniel for example about Gentile kingdoms is short in comparison to the ink Babylon gets in Revelation and in Daniel it all ties back into Jerusalem. If Babylon in Revelation is not Jerusalem there is no tie back.

Since the Jewish covenant relationship with God ended in 70 AD with the temple destruction there is no future Jerusalem for Babylon to tie into--the tie in has to be no later than 70 AD.

Jesus explicitly named Jerusalem as the place that kills the prophets in Matthew 23:37 and in Luke 13:33 it is not possible for a prophet to perish outside of Jerusalem then in Revelation 13:13 the blood of the prophets...was found in you. Only someone in denial would fail to see Babylon is Jerusalem.

 

[OldRegular]

kyredneck

I take what is primarily an idealist approach to the interpretation of the Book of Revelation which generally regards the book as setting forth eternal truths concerning the conflict between good and evil and that the imagery of the book has no particular relation to any historical events.

I believe that the book of Revelation was written to and for the apostolic Church, addressed specifically the seven churches in Asia in the midst of persecution. However, Revelation, as all Scripture, must speak to the Church throughout time.

That being said I believe that much of the Olivet discourse was a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem. I suppose some would accuse me of being a semi-preterist for that belief but it certainly falls within the idealist interpretation of Revelation.

I have written some notes on the Book of Revelation for use in a Sunday school class some years ago. i will share some of my thoughts which I believe are applicable to my belief that Babylon represents the apostate church.

"In order to understand the purpose of the Book of Revelation it is necessary that one understand that the Church, while in the world, is not part of it. Before Jesus Christ went to the cross to die for our sins and His Church He told His disciples:

John 16:33, KJV
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Jesus Christ had told His disciples when sending them out to preach the Gospel:

Matthew 10:16-22, KJV
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against [their] parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Tribulation is the heritage of the Church. The history of the true Church has been, and will continue to be, one of tribulation, whether from the evil of the world order or from the evil of false religion. The persecution of the Church by the Jews began almost immediately after Pentecost. The Church was scattered from Jerusalem, in part because of the persecution led by Saul of Tarsus, eventually leading to the spread of the Gospel to the Gentile nations. The Christians remaining at Jerusalem endured further severe persecution under Herod Agrippa I. Even as the Judaizers continually harassed the converted Saul of Tarsus [now the Apostle Paul] so the Jews persisted in their persecution of the apostolic Church. This persecution occurred not only in Jerusalem and Judea but throughout much of the Roman Empire as the Church grew through the proclamation of the Gospel. Philip Schaff in his History of the Christian Church [8 volumes] describes this persecution of the Church, as follows [Volume II, page 36]:

The Jews had displayed their obstinate unbelief and bitter hatred of the Gospel in the crucifixion of Christ, the stoning of Stephen, the execution of James the Elder, the repeated incarcerations of Peter and John, the wild rage against Paul, and the murder of James the Just. No wonder that the fearful judgment of God at last visited this ingratitude upon them in the destruction of the holy city and the temple, from which the Christians found refuge in Pella.

But this tragic fate could break only the national power of the Jews, not their hatred of Christianity. They caused the death of Symeon, bishop of Jerusalem; they were particularly active in the burning of Polycarp of Smyrna; and they inflamed the violence of the Gentiles by calumniating [slandering] the sect of the Nazarenes.

However, with the destruction of Jerusalem and the spread of Christianity to the Gentiles the primary persecution of the Church passed from the Jews to the Roman Empire and persisted almost 300 years until Rome was destroyed and Imperial Rome was replaced, eventually by papal Rome. Out of the brutal persecution of Christians by Imperial Rome was born the saying of Tertullian: The blood of the Christians is the seed of the Church.

The first severe persecution of the Church by the Roman Empire occurred under the emperor Nero in 64 AD. Nero blamed the destruction of Rome by fire on the Christians, apparently to divert suspicion from himself. To paraphrase Schaff, A vast multitude of Christians was killed; some were crucified, some were killed by wild animals, and some were covered with pitch and burned as torches for the amusement of the mob. Thus began the first major persecution of the Church by Rome. Persecution of the Church continued under Domitian [81-96 AD] and Trajan [98-117 AD] and intermittently until the time of Constantine. The most severe persecution of the Church began under the reign of Diocletian in 303 AD and lasted until 311 AD.[30]

In his History of the Christian Church, Schaff poignantly describes the persecution of the Church and the results of that persecution, as follows [Volume II, page 32]:

The persecutions of Christianity during the first three centuries appear like a long tragedy; first, foreboding signs; then a succession of bloody assaults of heathenism upon the religion of the cross; amidst the dark scenes of fiendish hatred and cruelty the bright exhibitions of suffering virtue; now and then a short pause; at last a fearful and desperate struggle of the old pagan empire for life and death, ending in the abiding victory of the Christian religion. Thus the bloody baptism of the Church resulted in the birth of a Christian world. It was a repetition and prolongation of the crucifixion but followed by a resurrection.

The prophecy of Daniel 7:21,22 was thus fulfilled in part; the fourth beast [of Daniel], Rome, made war with the saints and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

There are differing opinions as to when the Apostle John wrote the Book of Revelation. The dominant views are that it was written either after the persecution under Nero and before the destruction of Jerusalem [70 AD] or after the destruction of Jerusalem and during the persecution by Domitian [81-96 AD]. Whenever it was written it is a Message of Hope for the Saints of God who will undergo persecution until our Lord Jesus Christ returns in Power and Great Glory [Matthew 24:30]."

 

[OldRegular]

Scripture teach throughout the concept of a counterfeit or apostate church? In the Old Testament the nation Israel is accused of harlotry or spiritual adultery [1 Chronicles 5:25, Psalm 106]. Hosea [Chapter 4] proclaims the judgment of God on the Northern Kingdom saying, Ephraim [is] joined to idols: let him alone.[Hosea 4:17].[114] The sins of Judah and Israel [the ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom] are described in detail in 2 Kings 17:7-18. The Northern Kingdom is carried into captivity in Assyria never to return but Judah, the tribe from which the Savior, Jesus Christ, would come was spared final judgment.

Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

John Gill writes about this judgment of God upon the Northern Kingdom, as follows: "God was determined to let them alone himself, and therefore bids his prophet to do so likewise: and sad is the case with men when he lets them alone, and will not disturb their consciences any more by jogs and convictions, but gives them up to a seared conscience, to hardness of heart, and to their own lusts; when he will not hedge up their way with thorns, or distress them with afflictive providences, and hinder them from going on in a course of sin and wickedness; nor give them restraining grace, but suffer them to go on in the broad road, till they drop into hell; and says of them, let him that is filthy be filthy still, [Revelation 22:11].

The New Testament teaches that many who profess to follow Jesus Christ are not true disciples. Our Lord Himself taught this truth in the parable of the sower and the seed [Matthew 13:18-23] and the parable of the ten virgins [Matthew 25:1-13]. Perhaps in no other Scripture is the reality of the counterfeit disciple more clear than the following passage:

Matthew 7:21-23, KJV
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Elsewhere in Scripture we read:

Luke 13:34
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Jude 1:4, KJV
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:19, KJV
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

It is reasonable, therefore, that since counterfeit discipleship or faith is taught elsewhere in Scripture the book that presents a picture of the struggle between good and evil in this dispensation would reveal the existence of a counterfeit church.

As further evidence of this conclusion we look at the admonition of God to His people: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. [Revelation 18:4, KJV]. The people of God are instructed to come out of Babylon, the harlot. What are they to leave?

The Apostle Paul in his letter to the church at Corinth deals with the problem of immoral behavior among members of a congregation. Paul tells the church to excommunicate one in their midst who is living in fornication [1 Corinthians 5:5]. Recalling previous advice given to the church he writes:

1 Corinthians 5:9-11, KJV
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

[Paul’s admonition is clear, the Saints are not to fellowship with a member of the congregation whose lifestyle brings reproach on the church and its Head, Jesus Christ. Such are to be excluded from the local body.] The part of this passage that is pertinent to the present discussion regards Paul admonition to the church that he does not intend they withdraw from [or go out of] the world. Scripture does not teach that the Saints of God are to come out of the world [otherwise how would they be a witness to the world]. That this is true is evidenced by Jesus Christ’s prayer for the Church:

John 17:15-18, KJV
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Rather they are instructed to withdraw from those in the local body who refuse to walk as Jesus Christ walked. Therefore when God instructs His people to come out of Babylon it is reasonable to conclude that He is speaking of a body of those who are not true believers, what some call the professing church.

 

[OldRegular]

The Two Signs in Heaven

Revelation 12:1-6, KJV
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

The two signs, or wonders, are: the woman waiting to give birth and the great red dragon. It is immediately obvious that a strictly literal interpretation of this passage is not indicated. First, the signs, or wonders, appear in heaven. Second, the description of the woman and the appearance of the dragon dictate against a literal interpretation.

The man-child is obviously Jesus Christ since He alone is to rule all nations [Psalm 2:9, Zechariah 9:10, 1 Corinthians 15:24-25]. Furthermore, the promise that He is to rule all nations with a rod of iron was first made to Jesus Christ in the Messianic Psalm 2 and is reiterated in Revelation 2:27 and 19:15. This understanding is held by many who take an idealist or futurist [including many dispensationalists] interpretation of Revelation. The above passage skips over the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and proceeds directly to His ascension. When the work of the Saviour is completed He is caught up to the throne of God.

The question then becomes: who does the woman represent? Note that the woman gives birth to the man-child and then flees to a place prepared by God in the wilderness where she is nourished for 1260 days or forty two months the same period of time that the two witnesses testify and the holy city is trodden underfoot by the unbelieving peoples. It is necessary that the identity of the woman who gives birth to the man-child be consistent with the identity of the woman who is nourished in the wilderness. The Scriptures are clear that the Messiah will come from the seed of woman [Genesis 3:15], from the seed of Abraham [Genesis 22:18, Galatians 3:16], from the seed of Jacob [Genesis 28:14], and from the seed of David [2 Samuel 7:12ff]. One might conclude that the woman who is to give birth represents the nation Israel. However, we are then left with a problem of the identity of the woman after the man child is caught up to Heaven. Is the one who fled to a place prepared by God national Israel? Certainly not. The nation Israel rejected God’s Messiah [John 1:11, Matthew 22:33-46], God rejected the nation Israel [Matthew 21:43], and there is no subsequent Scripture that indicates a future change. The roll of the nation Israel in God’s purpose of salvation was finished. However, the elect of Israel [Romans 11:1-5], the faithful remnant, did not reject the Messiah and, therefore, became the nucleus of the New Testament Church. Furthermore, the Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 9-11 that God has not rejected the elect of Israel. However, their salvation is only through faith in Jesus Christ.

The most acceptable interpretation of the significance of the woman is that before ‘giving birth’ she represents the true Israel of God, the believing remnant [Isaiah 10:20-23]. Even as the woman cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered, so the true Israel longed for the coming of the Messiah [Matthew 13:17, John 8:56, Hebrews 11].

The woman is delivered of the man child, the Messiah, Jesus. With the coming of Jesus Christ the Old Covenant is passing away [Hebrews 8:13]. With His death the New Covenant is in force [Hebrews 9:14-16] and the woman is then representative of the Church. In each case she represents the Israel of God for there is direct continuity between the true people of God under the Old Covenant and the true people of God under the New Covenant. Paul clearly demonstrates this using the analogy of the olive tree in Romans 11.

 

[kyredneck]

It's good to have you back OR.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

OldRegular,
I agree with your following outline:

1.] This woman sits on many waters. From Rev.17:15 we see the many waters identified as peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
2.] This woman is arrayed in scarlet and purple and adorned with gold......
3.] The woman commits fornication with the kings of the earth.
4.] The woman persecutes the Church...is drunk with the blood of Saints.
5.] The woman rides a beast that John saw coming out of the sea. Rev.13:1.
6.] The woman is a great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.
7.] The woman is under the judgment of God.

My questions:
1. In the destruction of this apostate Church (the City) by Ten Kings, at what crisis-point on earth does the Harlot cease to "reign over the Kings of earth? Does it coincide with God "putting into their minds to agree and to give their power and authority to the Beast"? Rev.17:13-18.

2. What is the consequence of these Ten having received "a kingdom at/for one hour with the Beast" after they "destroy Babylon and eat her flesh"...by confiscating the Global System?
Rev.17:14-16.

3. In reference to the "end of time" and the destruction of the Beast, how does this initial destruction relate to (or anticipate) the total destruction of Babylon when God destroys the City and Global System by history's greatest earthquake? Rev.16:18-21.

4. Since God's judgment on Israel ends with the restoration of both Ephraim
and Judah as "one stick," do you agree with Preterists that Babylon refers to
apostate Judaism?
Mel Miller

 

[Thinkingstuff]

OldRegular,
I agree with your following outline:


My questions:
1. In the destruction of this apostate Church (the City) by Ten Kings, at what crisis-point on earth does the Harlot cease to "reign over the Kings of earth? Does it coincide with God "putting into their minds to agree and to give their power and authority to the Beast"? Rev.17:13-18.

2. What is the consequence of these Ten having received "a kingdom at/for one hour with the Beast" after they "destroy Babylon and eat her flesh"...by confiscating the Global System?
Rev.17:14-16.

3. In reference to the "end of time" and the destruction of the Beast, how does this initial destruction relate to (or anticipate) the total destruction of Babylon when God destroys the City and Global System by history's greatest earthquake? Rev.16:18-21.

4. Since God's judgment on Israel ends with the restoration of both Ephraim
and Judah as "one stick," do you agree with Preterists that Babylon refers to
apostate Judaism?
Mel Miller

I do. Consider the facts. Jerusalem also built on seven hills. Jerusalem referred to as a prostitute for going astray in the OT. 70 AD women are reported to eat their own children during the seige by the Romans. Shortly there after economic ruin hits the empire as a drought occures in the empire. Egypt refuses to sell grain to Rome. The regon is hit with several earthquakes.

 

[DixieBoy]

Scripture teach throughout the concept of a counterfeit or apostate church? In the Old Testament the nation Israel is accused of harlotry or spiritual adultery [1 Chronicles 5:25, Psalm 106]. Hosea [Chapter 4] proclaims the judgment of God on the Northern Kingdom saying, Ephraim [is] joined to idols: let him alone.[Hosea 4:17].[114] The sins of Judah and Israel [the ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom] are described in detail in 2 Kings 17:7-18. The Northern Kingdom is carried into captivity in Assyria never to return but Judah, the tribe from which the Savior, Jesus Christ, would come was spared final judgment.

Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

God doesn't like spiritual harlotry that is for sure. At a later time Judah too was carried away to Babylon. The 10 tribes of Israel and Judah were reunited and came back to the land of Israel. For what father chastens not his son. God's mercy is always greater than his anger.