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Who wields the most power in the Trinity?
- Thread starter webdog
- Start date
freeatlast
New Member
The Trinity is beyond our understanding to say the least. However we do have some scripture on the matter you posed.
Jesus said this;
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Also in 1Cor 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
It is not Who holds the most power. God is One. How this is worked out with one God in three persons is a mystery, but according to these verses there is some sort of submission and it seems that no one Person of the Trinity acts individually. Because of this and the relationship of the Trinity it would be undertandable that to act against or even apart (on ones own) from one Person would be rebellion within Ones self and that simply cannot happen. And that is my final answer. :smilewinkgrin:
Jesus said this;
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Also in 1Cor 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
It is not Who holds the most power. God is One. How this is worked out with one God in three persons is a mystery, but according to these verses there is some sort of submission and it seems that no one Person of the Trinity acts individually. Because of this and the relationship of the Trinity it would be undertandable that to act against or even apart (on ones own) from one Person would be rebellion within Ones self and that simply cannot happen. And that is my final answer. :smilewinkgrin:
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I agree with the above. I think the Father, Son, and Spirit are all equal in unlimited...ness
The confusion comes in their roles, which are different.
A read through the Gospel of John in focus of their roles is amazing. The Son submits to the Father as the head of the Godhead if you will, hence why Jesus says the Father is greater than He is, yet claims equality by calling Him Father. The Son only acts to do what the Father commands as He was on earth, not that He couldn't do anything He wanted.
The confusion comes in their roles, which are different.
A read through the Gospel of John in focus of their roles is amazing. The Son submits to the Father as the head of the Godhead if you will, hence why Jesus says the Father is greater than He is, yet claims equality by calling Him Father. The Son only acts to do what the Father commands as He was on earth, not that He couldn't do anything He wanted.
OK, more specifically it is stated Christ can call a dead person, but the person is unable to respond to Him unless the Holy Spirit "quickens" the person first. This is ironic since one of the many names for Jesus is The Life and one aspect of the Holy Spirit is to point people to Christ.
Does the Holy Spirit wield more power over death than Christ?
Does the Holy Spirit wield more power over death than Christ?
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Scripture does not say the Holy Spirit intervened in any of the miracles that Christ did when He raised people from the dead. That should tell you the answer.
Jesus said of the Holy Spirit:
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
I agree, but it has countinuously been brought up here lately that in order for a man to have faith and respond to Christ, he has to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit first. I would like those who hold to this pre-faith regeneration to support this notion that gives more power to the Holy Spirit.
There is rank in the Godhead. The Father is highest, then the Son, then the Spirit. Election is not about power as much as it is the will of the Father.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
This is pretty elementary.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
This is pretty elementary.
Where does that show "rank"? I see roles, but I don't see rank...
for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, Col 2:9
1 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him;
4 and they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads. Rev 22
I don't know about rank, but I do believe that we'll only see one when we get there, not three.
1 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him;
4 and they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads. Rev 22
I don't know about rank, but I do believe that we'll only see one when we get there, not three.
The very reason God the Father is called "Father" and Jesus "Son". One isn't greater, they are all equal, yet one yields a different position in the Godhead. The Father wills and chooses while the Son submits to that choice perfectly in agreeance as He sees and would choose the same if He had to choose. The Father and Son are equal as I am my dad, and my little brother (we are human beings, the Father, Son, and Spirit are God). You can't take the illustration to far, yet my dad holds more leadership or rank if you will under our household and I submit as a willing son.
John 14:28b, "...If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
That passage in John was while Jesus was in His earthly condition.
There has been much debate on the eternal sonship of Christ. I'm undecided one way or the other, as I don't think we can fully comprehend it, and using the earthly father / son relationship as a guide would not be the way to do it.
Are there Scriptures where the Holy Spirit holds more power over Christ?
I agree with webdog --Christ’s remarks during his earthly ministry cannot be the standard by which we make our doctrine about so called “rank” in the Trinity. While the Son voluntarily submitted to the will of the Father—the “voluntary” aspect of this submission cannot be overlooked. I know all about the eternal sonship debate, but I personally believe the submission of the Son involves his role in the plan of salvation & really does not make him in anyway lower in rank to the Father.
Tom Butler
New Member
Without recapping all of webdog's posts, I think he has a pretty good handle on the subject.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Christ
Ephesians 1:
Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
1 Corinthians 15:
The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[Psalm 8:6] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”[Isaiah 22:13]
33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[From the Greek poet Menander] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
At this time I see a circle(triangle) of power. Where the Holy Spirit praises the Son , the Son praises the Father and the Father lifts up His Holy Spirit. Never ending circle until everything has been placed under the feet of Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 1:
Thanksgiving and Prayer
15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
1 Corinthians 15:
The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[Psalm 8:6] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
“Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.”[Isaiah 22:13]
33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”[From the Greek poet Menander] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
At this time I see a circle(triangle) of power. Where the Holy Spirit praises the Son , the Son praises the Father and the Father lifts up His Holy Spirit. Never ending circle until everything has been placed under the feet of Christ Jesus.
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Steven2006
New Member
"Who wields the most power in the Trinity?"
Am I alone in the feeling it is not my place to be even try to make that judgment?
Am I alone in the feeling it is not my place to be even try to make that judgment?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I certainly hold to pre-faith regeneration but I have never stated (nor saw anyone else say) that a person can't respond to Christ without Holy Spirit regeneration. That would have Holy Spirit and the Son acting contrary to one another.
However, I do believe a person is unable to respond unto salvation to the Gospel of Jesus Christ without being first empowered by Holy Spirit to do so. I hope you see the difference.
peace to you
raying:I certainly hold to pre-faith regeneration but I have never stated (nor saw anyone else say) that a person can't respond to Christ without Holy Spirit regeneration. That would have Holy Spirit and the Son acting contrary to one another.
However, I do believe a person is unable to respond unto salvation to the Gospel of Jesus Christ without being first empowered by Holy Spirit to do so. I hope you see the difference.
peace to you
As in the Holy Spirit convicts and pricks their hearts to admit their guilt.
I agree with you.
I would never attempt to claim that the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit ever work against each other.
I think Webdog has a bone, and he wants someone to try to take it from him.
You think wrong. I have read on this very board that man cannot respond to Christ unless they are first "quickened" by the Holy Spirit. The pre-faith regeneration view's logical conclusion leads to that concept.
glfredrick
New Member
According to Romans 10, it is not a pre-faith regeneration. That is where your confusion starts. There is no such thing as a pre-faith regeneration. There is also no such thing as calling on God without faith first, which would indicate that the act of calling on God is already a God-ordained encounter where He has already done the work of regeneration. That is why Paul can say with assurance (in Rom 10:13) that "Those who call upon the Lord WILL be saved." We cant' "call" unless God has already done the work!
14 But how can they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How welcome are the feet of those who announce the gospel of good things! 16 But all did not obey the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our message? 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.[Romans 10:14-17 (HCSB)]
Note that nowhere in that passage does it indicate that we respond to God FIRST, then have faith in Him after we respond.
Earlier in the chapter, Paul writes this (which is the basis for the pericope I posted above):
10:1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God concerning them is for their salvation! 2 I can testify about them that they have zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 Because they disregarded the righteousness from God and attempted to establish their own righteousness, they have not submitted to God’s righteousness. [Romans 10:1-3 (HCSB)]
Paul is desperately trying to get the people at Rome to see that coming to God is not a human-sourced religious decision, but one that stems from God Himself, via the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, and that brought, confirmed, and sealed by the Holy Spirit. The complete Trinity.
Further:
5:1 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Also through Him, we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions, because we know that affliction produces endurance, 4 endurance produces proven character, and proven character produces hope. 5 This hope does not disappoint, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 6 For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly. [Romans 5:1-6 (HCSB)]