Who will be in the millennial kingdom?

[J.D.]

Some of the posts in this thread prove that most of the key criticisms of disp'ism found in the "95 thesis" are accurate. Multiple ages, multiple kingdoms, multiple salvation plans, inconsistent hermeneutics, etc.

 

[Marcia]

Some of the posts in this thread prove that most of the key criticisms of disp'ism found in the "95 thesis" are accurate. Multiple ages, multiple kingdoms, multiple salvation plans, inconsistent hermeneutics, etc.

I must disagree. First of all, I saw no multiple salvations except by one poster. This does not represent what I know most dispys believe or what is taught.

Also, the details may vary in some of the scenarios simply because we don't know the details, but the basic dispy views are agreed on by the dispys I know.

I have not seen consistencies in any endtimes view among all those who follow them. Personally, I think the Lord keeps part of this hidden because He desires it to be so. Maybe He even has the threads of all the endtime views in the Bible - after all, amils and premils often cite the same scripture but see it differently. What is there is truth but we cannot grasp it completely because we are not to know all this in full yet.

 

[J.D.]

I must disagree. First of all, I saw no multiple salvations except by one poster. This does not represent what I know most dispys believe or what is taught.

Also, the details may vary in some of the scenarios simply because we don't know the details, but the basic dispy views are agreed on by the dispys I know.

I have not seen consistencies in any endtimes view among all those who follow them. Personally, I think the Lord keeps part of this hidden because He desires it to be so. Maybe He even has the threads of all the endtime views in the Bible - after all, amils and premils often cite the same scripture but see it differently. What is there is truth but we cannot grasp it completely because we are not to know all this in full yet.

Well, the dispies you know and the dispies that I know are obviously two different groups. But I totally agree with your last paragraph. It's refreshing to speak to a dispy that admits the weaknesses of the system and doesn't talk down to me or accuse me of being liberal or an allegorist because I happen to accept the spiritual fulfillment of literal events and prophetic language. May God increase our understanding, amen.

 

[Marcia]

Well, the dispies you know and the dispies that I know are obviously two different groups. But I totally agree with your last paragraph. It's refreshing to speak to a dispy that admits the weaknesses of the system and doesn't talk down to me or accuse me of being liberal or an allegorist because I happen to accept the spiritual fulfillment of literal events and prophetic language. May God increase our understanding, amen.

Amen! :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thinkingstuff: // If Jesus comes and those who believe in him are taking out through the rapture and the Holy Spirit is also taken out. Then how will people be saved to become christian and then martyred or persecuted during the tribulation? //

I have spoken with at least three Messanic Jews (Physical Jews who believe that Jesus is Messiah) who believe that Gentiles will NOT be saved in the Tribualtion Judgement. They say: "Only Jews will be saved in the Tribulation Judgement". "When every gentile that is going to be saved is saved, then the mostly gentile Church will be raptured* as well as Messanic Jews.

* note, I'd say instead of 'rapture': "pretribulation rapture2 = resurrection1 + rapture1, will take place."
the 144,000 special Jews who will be protected by the Mark of God on earth during the Tribualtion Judgement will come from these raptured Messanic Jews.

I believe the Bible says that there will be Gentiles saved during the Tribualation Judgement. Here is how I think people in all ages get saved:

Rom 10:9 (Gevenva Bible,. 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:

In the Tribulation Judgement I believe gentiles who do not take the mark of the beast will thereby 'confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus' (or, as it were, confess with their lobbed off head) - they will be saved at the cost of their life.

 

[OldRegular]

Amy, are you amil now?

If so, then you must believe that what is described in Rev 20 below has happened, in which case, the "first resurrection" has happened:

4Then I saw (H)thrones, and (I)they sat on them, and (J)judgment was given to them And I saw (K)the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their (L)testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not (M)worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the (N)mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they (O)came to life and (P)reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. (Q)This is the first resurrection.
6(R)Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the (S)second death has no power, but they will be (T)priests of God and of Christ and will (U)reign with Him for a thousand years. 7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be (V)released from his prison,
8and will come out to (W)deceive the nations which are in the (X)four corners of the earth, (Y)Gog and Magog, to (Z)gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the (AA)sand of the seashore.

The first and only resurrection to date happened some 2000 years ago, that of Jesus Christ. Those who have part in this first resurrection are the elect, those redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ. Over these the second death [hell] has no power.

 

[OldRegular]

The preeminent dispensational theologian John Walvoord teaches in his book Major Bible Prophecies that David will reign as coregent with Jesus Christ in the millennial kingdom. He writes [page 393] "Though many have tried to explain away this passage [Ezekiel 37:24-25], it obviously requires the Second Coming of Christ, the establishment of David’s kingdom on earth, the resurrection of David, and David’s sharing the throne of Israel as coregent with Christ."

Strange isn't it? Since [according to dispensationalists] Jesus Christ is to sit on David's throne do they both sit on it at the same time or merely share it.

 

[Marcia]

The first and only resurrection to date happened some 2000 years ago, that of Jesus Christ. Those who have part in this first resurrection are the elect, those redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ. Over these the second death [hell] has no power.

Verse 5 is clearly not referring to Jesus Christ but to a resurrection of those who have been physically dead.

5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

[OldRegular]

Verse 5 is clearly not referring to Jesus Christ but to a resurrection of those who have been physically dead.

If you are going to insist on an interpretation that does not consider the entire passage, and that in the context of all Scripture teaching concerning the resurrection [See John 5:28, 29], then the first resurrection will have to apply to those who are resurrected at the end of 1000 years.

Revelation 20:5

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Marcia]

If you are going to insist on an interpretation that does not consider the entire passage, and that in the context of all Scripture teaching concerning the resurrection [See John 5:28, 29], then the first resurrection will have to apply to those who are resurrected at the end of 1000 years.

Revelation 20:5

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

I was merely responding to what you said previously, that the first resurrection was Jesus Christ. I know that, but that is not what the passage is about.

John 5 does not give a time frame; Rev 20 does.

Well, I'm going out of town tomorrow and will not be posting for a few days.

 

[OldRegular]

I was merely responding to what you said previously, that the first resurrection was Jesus Christ. I know that, but that is not what the passage is about.

John 5 does not give a time frame; Rev 20 does.

Well, I'm going out of town tomorrow and will not be posting for a few days.

You are mistaken, John 5:28, 29 does give a time frame. Revelation 20 is a recapitulation of events from the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ until the general resurrection and judgment that Jesus Christ promised in John 5:28, 29.

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[THE HOUR] is the time frame! The hour means [THE HOUR]! :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is what I know about Global Economics:
God's Global Economics

Here are the four uses of 'dispensation' in the New
Testament:

1Co 9:17 (KJV1611 Edition):
For if I doe this thing willingly,
I haue a reward: but if against my will,
a dispensation of the Gospel is committed vnto me.

Eph 1:10 (KJV1611 Edition):
That in the dispensation of the fulnesse of times,
he might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heauen, and which are on earth,
euen in him:

Eph 3:2 (KJV1611 Edition):
If ye haue heard of the dispensation
of the grace of God, which is giuen me to youward:

Col 1:25 (KJV1611 Edition):
Whereof I am made a Minister, according
to the dispensation of God, which is giuen
to mee for you, to fulfill the word of God:

We get our English word 'economy from the
Greek 'oikonomia' (translated as 'dispensation'
in the KJVs.

In God's Economy of time:

hour = the appropriate time
day = the appropriate time
week = the appropriate time
month = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time
7-years = the appropriate time
1,000 years = the appropriate time

(so 1 hour = 1,000 years) ----------------- this thread

In God's Economy of People restoration:

The blind see,
The deaf hear
The dead live
The lame leap like deer
The first are last
The last are first

 

[OldRegular]

Ed

FYI

John 12:37-40

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[mark1]

You are mistaken, John 5:28, 29 does give a time frame. Revelation 20 is a recapitulation of events from the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ until the general resurrection and judgment that Jesus Christ promised in John 5:28, 29.

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[THE HOUR] is the time frame! The hour means [THE HOUR]! :thumbs:

It is refreshing to find someone else on BB who believes in the "hour", as I do.
Old Regular, has it just right to suit me. There was another Brother who was cut short on here, that believed this way also, among others and that was Brother Bob. Sorry to see him gone.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed

FYI

John 12:37-40

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

I guess I need to take a nap. The scripture is always true, but I see no reason why you have put this scripture here??? What does it prove? What are you trying to prove? How does this pertain to the ongoing discussion?

Who will be in the physical-literal 1,000 year Messianic Kingdom?

 

[Ed Edwards]

The preeminent dispensational theologian John Walvoord teaches in his book Major Bible Prophecies that David will reign as coregent with Jesus Christ in the millennial kingdom. He writes [page 393] "Though many have tried to explain away this passage [Ezekiel 37:24-25], it obviously requires the Second Coming of Christ, the establishment of David’s kingdom on earth, the resurrection of David, and David’s sharing the throne of Israel as coregent with Christ."

Strange isn't it? Since [according to dispensationalists] Jesus Christ is to sit on David's throne do they both sit on it at the same time or merely share it.

Yea, Brother OldRegular another straw man torched. Personally I don't read Walvoord, I read the Bible.

Instead of reading Walvoord, I recommend you read the best book (fiction or non-fiction, that Tim LaHaye ever wrote:

HOW TO STUDY THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF, Revised (Harvest House, 1976, 1998)

 

[OldRegular]

Yea, Brother OldRegular another straw man torched. Personally I don't read Walvoord, I read the Bible.

Instead of reading Walvoord, I recommend you read the best book (fiction or non-fiction, that Tim LaHaye ever wrote:

HOW TO STUDY THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF, Revised (Harvest House, 1976, 1998)

I am not sure what straw man was torched unless you are referring to dispensationalism. Also why would I read a book on how to study the Bible written by a dispensationalist. The Scofield Bible has corrupted the beliefs of too many Christians already.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Let me try to explain it easier. I didn't get my dispensation teaching from Walvoord OR from LaHaye or from any man. I got my dispensation teaching from the Bible (God's Word). The problem is, you Sir are getting your dispensation teaching from others and arguing with me about it.

Oh well, I'm not called to raise you. End of Discussion.

 

[Ed Edwards]

// The preeminent dispensational theologian John Walvoord teaches in his book Major Bible Prophecies that David will reign as coregent with Jesus Christ in the millennial kingdom. He writes [page 393] "Though many have tried to explain away this passage [Ezekiel 37:24-25], it obviously requires the Second Coming of Christ, the establishment of David’s kingdom on earth, the resurrection of David, and David’s sharing the throne of Israel as coregent with Christ."

Strange isn't it? Since [according to dispensationalists] Jesus Christ is to sit on David's throne do they both sit on it at the same time or merely share it. //

Jesus will sit on the throne of David is a SYMBOL that Jesus in His Millennial Messianic Kingdom will rule from Jerusalem, where David had his throne. I.E. the Lord will rule over the Jewish (Israeli) kingdom.

 

[OldRegular]

Let me try to explain it easier. I didn't get my dispensation teaching from Walvoord OR from LaHaye or from any man. I got my dispensation teaching from the Bible (God's Word). The problem is, you Sir are getting your dispensation teaching from others and arguing with me about it.

Oh well, I'm not called to raise you. End of Discussion.

Dispensationalism is the invention of John Darby aided by Cyrus Scofield. It does not come from the Bible. What Jesus Christ said of the Jews [following Scripture] may be said of dispensationalists:

Matthew 13:14, 15

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

I decided a couple of years ago that discussing Scripture with dispensationalists was fruitless so I am out of here.