Who Would Christ "Have Been" If Man Did Not Fall?

[Aaron]

The Son's Name, His Title, and His authority are merited by the work He did on the Cross.

Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. - Ephesians 1:15-23

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:5-11



In addition, Christ's Priesthood is tied to His Sonship. They are inseparable and eternal. His calling to Sonship is His calling to Priesthood.

That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father." Hebrews 5:5 NLT



His work of Redemption is the essence of His identity and the reason He bears the marks of the nails in His hands, and the mark of the spear in His side.

Creation was all about the Cross. The Rest that Christ prepared for us by His death and resurrection, was ready since the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, made the world.

For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, "In my anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter my place of rest,'" even though this rest has been ready since he made the world.

We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: "On the seventh day God rested from all his work." Hebrews 4:3-4.


For these reasons, it would not be an adding to Scripture, but an harmonizing of the Scriptures, to say, all things were created by him, and for him: [and him crucified.] Colossians 1:16


If not for the plan of Redemption, what role would the Son fill?

 

[JonC]

I dont think the question can be answered.

The creation of Adam was on the 6th day.
Then there's the Lamb slain before (or from, depending on who's interpreting) the foundation of the world.

So, it seems logical that God creating Adam, taking Adam and putting him in His presence in the Garden, was a part of the plan to redeem man and make man a new creation.

It is almost like flesh comes first and then the spiritual (kinda like a seed that comes before the tree).

 

[Van]

Yes, JonC, all these "what if" God acted differently than as described in scripture are simply advocating a scripture changed by the imagination of people. God had a plan when He chose Christ to be His Lamb before creation. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, the thread asks to comment on a rewrite.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, JonC, all these "what if" God acted differently than as described in scripture are simply advocating a scripture changed by the imagination of people. God had a plan when He chose Christ to be His Lamb before creation. Since no plan of God can be thwarted, the thread asks to comment on a rewrite.

The 'Plan B' people should have some idea.

 

[Van]

The 'Plan B' people should have some idea.

The plan B people seem to be those wanting to discuss imaginary scripture. Not the group committed to living by His word.

 

[Aaron]

The plan B people seem to be those wanting to discuss imaginary scripture. Not the group committed to living by His word.

The question is for them. Let's see how they answer it.

 

[Van]

There should be no "Plan B" people posting on this forum, as Baptists are committed to following the word of God, not any rewrite.

 

[Aaron]

There should be no "Plan B" people posting on this forum, as Baptists are committed to following the word of God, not any rewrite.

Just chill, Van. By "Plan B" people I mean those who think that though the Fall was foreseen, it was not intended, and that offering His Son as a sacrifice for sin was not God's original plan. God's original plan, to them, was that Adam and his offspring live naked forever in a garden paradise on earth.

There is a vast number of Baptists who think that way. They're typically noncalvinist and espouse some kind of Synergism in their soteriology.

A huge subset of them are the Dispensational Pre-Millennialists, a sort of 'Plan C' people. Plan B for them was Circumcision and Sinai, but since the Jews rejected and killed their Messiah, salvation by grace through faith was offered to the world.

So let them answer what role the Son would have filled if Plan A, as they see it, had come together.

 

[Silverhair]

Just chill, Van. By "Plan B" people I mean those who think that though the Fall was foreseen, it was not intended, and that offering His Son as a sacrifice for sin was not God's original plan. God's original plan, to them, was that Adam and his offspring live naked forever in a garden paradise on earth.

There is a vast number of Baptists who think that way. They're typically noncalvinist and espouse some kind of Synergism in their soteriology.

A huge subset of them are the Dispensational Pre-Millennialists, a sort of 'Plan C' people. Plan B for them was Circumcision and Sinai, but since the Jews rejected and killed their Messiah, salvation by grace through faith was offered to the world.

So let them answer what role the Son would have filled if Plan A, as they see it, had come together.

If Adam had not sinned then there would not have been the need for Christ to go the cross. Christ would still be God and we would still worship Him.

God created man in His image

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

The image of God seems to include attributes of personality such as:
the will,
freedom of choice,
self-consciousness,
self-determination,
rationality;
and attributes of holiness such as:
moral discernment, and
the ability to know and
love God.

 

[Aaron]

If Adam had not sinned then there would not have been the need for Christ to go the cross. Christ would still be God and we would still worship Him.

He would actually not be "Christ."
And, having no need for a priest, He would not be the Son.
And, not being a Son, there could be no Father.
So who would send the Spirit?

So, the disobedience of Adam, in essence, elevated the Second Person, and by extension, the First and Third Persons. Joseph Smith got it right.

Genesis - Inspired Version
4:10 And in that day, Adam blessed God, and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying, Blessed be the name of God; for because of my transgression, my eyes are opened; and in this life I shall have joy, and again, in the flesh I shall see God.

4:11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying, Were it not for our transgression, we never should have had seed and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

4:12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God; and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.

God created man in His image

True.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

True.

The image of God seems to include attributes of personality such as:
the will,

To do His will.

You're on a roll!

freedom of choice,

BZZZZ! Oh snap!
It is impossible for God to lie.
He cannot deny Himself.

self-consciousness,

The beasts possess that, so not Imago Dei.

self-determination,

BZZZZ!
It is impossible for God to lie.
He cannot deny Himself.

rationality;

Let us reason together.

and attributes of holiness such as:

They were in the Garden, not outside it.

moral discernment, and

BZZZZ! Oh snap!
They were forbidden to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

the ability to know and
love God.

Well, that was an existential reality, not really a power, but we see what you're gettin' at.

But you forgot marriage. That is, individual persons standing in a covenant relationship ratified by an oath, becoming One in the Spirit of love.

 

[Silverhair]

He would actually not be "Christ."
And, having no need for a priest, He would not be the Son.
And, not being a Son, there could be no Father.
So who would send the Spirit?

So, the disobedience of Adam, in essence, elevated the Second Person, and by extension, the First and Third Persons. Joseph Smith got it right.

Genesis - Inspired Version
4:10 And in that day, Adam blessed God, and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying, Blessed be the name of God; for because of my transgression, my eyes are opened; and in this life I shall have joy, and again, in the flesh I shall see God.

4:11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying, Were it not for our transgression, we never should have had seed and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

4:12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God; and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.


True.


True.


To do His will.

You're on a roll!


BZZZZ! Oh snap!
It is impossible for God to lie.
He cannot deny Himself.


The beasts possess that, so not Imago Dei.


BZZZZ!
It is impossible for God to lie.
He cannot deny Himself.




Let us reason together.



They were in the Garden, not outside it.


BZZZZ! Oh snap!
They were forbidden to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


Well, that was an existential reality, not really a power, but we see what you're gettin' at.

But you forgot marriage. That is, individual persons standing in a covenant relationship ratified by an oath, becoming One in the Spirit of love.

You really are off the wall with your religion.

 

[Aaron]

So, the disobedience of Adam, in essence, elevated the Second Person,

I left out a phrase: So, the disobedience of Adam, in essence, according to @Silverhair , elevated the Second Person...

 

[Aaron]

You really are off the wall with your religion.

What are you talking about? You're the one in line with Joseph Smith.

But, that you, being ignorant of the Scriptures, haven't thought your notions through, and that you don't like the implications of your assertions, don't blame me.

You said God's original plan had no need for the Cross.
That means no need for a sacrifice.
No sacrifice means no need for a priest.
No priest, no temple.
No temple, no covenant.
No covenant, no nation.
No nation, no Messiah (Christ).
No Christ, no Sonship.
No Sonship, no Fatherhood.

Talk about 'off the wall.'

 

[Silverhair]

What are you talking about? You're the one in line with Joseph Smith.

But, that you, being ignorant of the Scriptures, haven't thought your notions through, and that you don't like the implications of your assertions, don't blame me.

You said God's original plan had no need for the Cross.
That means no need for a sacrifice.
No sacrifice means no need for a priest.
No priest, no temple.
No temple, no covenant.
No covenant, no nation.
No nation, no Messiah (Christ).
No Christ, no Sonship.
No Sonship, no Fatherhood.

Talk about 'off the wall.'

If I thought you had any thing of value to say I would continue to deal with you on this board but since you have shown yourself to be beyond help I will just leave you to wallow in your false philosophy.

 

[Aaron]

...false philosophy.

C'mon! We all know you wanted to say, "heresy!"

You don't have an answer, because it's not possible that Adam would not fall. Before the foundation of the world, God determined that His Son would prove His worth and slay the dragon, rescue His beloved, ascend to the throne and marry her, and have lots of children.

The Cross was the whole point of Creation.

 

[percho]

because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; Eph 6:12
2 Cor 4:4 in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; ?This Age of Darkness?
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, Gen 1:2
2 Cor 4:6 because it is God who said, Out of darkness, light to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

IMHO Adam was created to bring sin and death into the world for the purpose of the figure of him, Christ that through the redemption of Christ from sin and death there would be no more darkness. And the darkness God called Night.

and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages. Rev 22:5


When was the beginning of the darkness of this age?

 

[Van]

Just chill, Van. By "Plan B" people I mean those who think that though the Fall was foreseen, it was not intended, and that offering His Son as a sacrifice for sin was not God's original plan. God's original plan, to them, was that Adam and his offspring live naked forever in a garden paradise on earth.

There is a vast number of Baptists who think that way. They're typically noncalvinist and espouse some kind of Synergism in their soteriology.

A huge subset of them are the Dispensational Pre-Millennialists, a sort of 'Plan C' people. Plan B for them was Circumcision and Sinai, but since the Jews rejected and killed their Messiah, salvation by grace through faith was offered to the world.

So let them answer what role the Son would have filled if Plan A, as they see it, had come together.

1) If God did not intend to apply His consequences to the Fall, He would not have chosen His Redeemer before the Fall. Can you link to a site when Plan B is advocated?

2) God alone decides whom He will save, we do not merit, contribute or in any way earn our salvation. Romans 9:16

3) Jews were not the cause of Christ's death, that is antisemitic garbage, Christ was put to death by God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge.

 

[atpollard]

While I have no desire to speculate on a "Plan B" God that I do not believe in ... I am happy to engage in extrapolation of KNOWN data to speculate on the unknown.

Christ existed before his "virgin birth" and there are appearances of "God" in the OT that are referred to as Chrisophanies, so we have some data on God the Son pre-incarnation.

Just shooting from the hip ...
The SON is the member of the Godhead with anthropomorphic form (arms, legs, head) ... so even without a fall, the SON would be God walking in the Garden with man (as the fourth person walked in the fiery furnace).

Related (and probably just my wild speculation), but in Genesis, "God formed" man from the ground and "breathed" life into his nostrils. The SON is the member of the Godhead with hands to "form" clay and a mouth to "breathe" a breath (spirit/ruach) of life. That makes for a special "intimacy" between the son and man (even predating the fall).

It points out a Trinitarian Role between Godhead and Man that predates the fall as well ... The FATHER can speak from heaven (illustrated in the Gospels) and we have God speaking creation into existence by "dividing" to create room and "filling" with a new creation. Then we have a God of human intimacy placing his hands in the clay to shape and caress "man" into being (because merely speaking man into being is too impersonal an act for God ... and the SON has the hands to caress clay into a man. Yet the final act of making the human form a living being comes from the BREATH of God ... the same word (breath/spirit) that identifies the third person of the Godhead. God the SPIRIT dwells in us and is the source of Life ... all before the fall.

I think it silly that God would ever be content with "half a plan", so I see this extraordinary act of TRI-UNITY in Love and creation as a "deposit that guarantees" a redemption and glorification to come [HIS glorification at our redemption], however it does hint at a "great high priest" beyond redemption. That is a reality we will one day experience for eternity when we will have been fully redeemed and GOD will still be GOD (in all three persons of his TRI unity).

 

[Aaron]

1) If God did not intend to apply His consequences to the Fall, He would not have chosen His Redeemer before the Fall. Can you link to a site when Plan B is advocated?

Oh, we're back to the notion that God predestined His plan, and not His people. That's not my point, nor the point of my question. My point is that God's eternal will was that His Son present Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of those He predestinated. Adam was never intended to forever frolic naked in a garden paradise on earth. He was created to be the door of sin and death into the world.

2) God alone decides whom He will save, we do not merit, contribute or in any way earn our salvation. Romans 9:16

Sounds all nice Calvinistic, but I think what you mean is that God decided on the conditions, not on the individuals.

3) Jews were not the cause of Christ's death, that is antisemitic garbage, Christ was put to death by God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge.

Well, they were certainly the cause of the death of His prophets, and I think the blood of Stephen differs with you from the ground about the exoneration of Christ's betrayers and murderers.

 

[Aaron]

While I have no desire to speculate on a "Plan B" God that I do not believe in ... I am happy to engage in extrapolation of KNOWN data to speculate on the unknown.

Christ existed before his "virgin birth" and there are appearances of "God" in the OT that are referred to as Chrisophanies, so we have some data on God the Son pre-incarnation.

Just shooting from the hip ...
The SON is the member of the Godhead with anthropomorphic form (arms, legs, head) ... so even without a fall, the SON would be God walking in the Garden with man (as the fourth person walked in the fiery furnace).

Related (and probably just my wild speculation), but in Genesis, "God formed" man from the ground and "breathed" life into his nostrils. The SON is the member of the Godhead with hands to "form" clay and a mouth to "breathe" a breath (spirit/ruach) of life. That makes for a special "intimacy" between the son and man (even predating the fall).

It points out a Trinitarian Role between Godhead and Man that predates the fall as well ... The FATHER can speak from heaven (illustrated in the Gospels) and we have God speaking creation into existence by "dividing" to create room and "filling" with a new creation. Then we have a God of human intimacy placing his hands in the clay to shape and caress "man" into being (because merely speaking man into being is too impersonal an act for God ... and the SON has the hands to caress clay into a man. Yet the final act of making the human form a living being comes from the BREATH of God ... the same word (breath/spirit) that identifies the third person of the Godhead. God the SPIRIT dwells in us and is the source of Life ... all before the fall.

I think it silly that God would ever be content with "half a plan", so I see this extraordinary act of TRI-UNITY in Love and creation as a "deposit that guarantees" a redemption and glorification to come [HIS glorification at our redemption], however it does hint at a "great high priest" beyond redemption. That is a reality we will one day experience for eternity when we will have been fully redeemed and GOD will still be GOD (in all three persons of his TRI unity).

Would he be Adam's High Priest? Would the Son take a bride? Would He be at the right hand of the Father?