Who Would Christ "Have Been" If Man Did Not Fall?

[Paleouss]

If not for the plan of Redemption, what role would the Son fill?

Greetings again Aaron. Blessings and love to you and your family.

I have not read any other posts other than your OP.

I also think this is something that cannot be answered since our perspective is from what God actually decreed. However, here is what I think we know for sure..

(1) God, the Trinity, is eternal. God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
(2) None of the three persons that are one God are contingent upon creation to exist. In other words, God the Son's existence is not contingent upon anything (especially something created).
(3) Scripture tells us that God the Son, Jesus Christ, is both conquerer AND savior within this world God chosen to create.

When we us the term 'role', we mean a part played within a creation. That is, a 'role' is a part one plays in a larger purpose of the overall plan.

Now it is my belief that the Scriptures point toward God's purpose, in this actual world, being to put all enemies, seen and unseen, and all principalities and powers under subjection of God the Son, so the full presence of God is manifest in His creation. This purpose includes within it, a desire to conquer 'conceptual power', like 'sin' and 'death' (this is what I mean when I say 'unseen'). As well as actual existing corporal and spiritual beings (seen). The Role of the Son of God therefore becomes that of conquerer and savior.

Earlier theologians postulated that God decided to create a 'maximal world'. In most senses I agree with this. I do believe God decided to show His full presence within creation. My point in bringing this up is how it relates to your question. If God decided to create a maximal world then your question is basically reduced to asking, if God decided to create some other lesser world, what would be God the Son's role? I guess an answer to that could be... just a conquerer and not also a savior.

After all that, I think my point is that the question doesn't flush out what I think, you think it does. I could be wrong about that.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure.

 

[Paleouss]

If not for the plan of Redemption, what role would the Son fill?

I might add to my other post to you.

I believe that this is the first intent of creation...

1st Intent: God the Father’s decree to create for God the Son and that God the Son be the purposeful end of creation, that which all creation culminates toward and to. (Col 1:16, Rom 11:36, Heb 2:10, Rev 22:13, 1:8, 1:11, 21:6)

It therefore follows that Adam was created to culminate 'toward' and 'to' the final intended end of this world. That end being God the Son. It also follows that if Adam was created in glory (small g) and it was God's intention of creation that 'all things' culminate toward Glory (big G). Then Adam was created, and was culminating toward his intended end even before the fall.

God didn't have one purpose before the fall and then another after the fall. Thus, Adam was fulfilling his purpose prior to the fall in that he was culminating toward his intended end. Therefore, God the Son is the ultimate end even before the fall.

Peace to you brother.

 

[Van]

Oh, we're back to the notion that God predestined His plan, and not His people. That's not my point, nor the point of my question. My point is that God's eternal will was that His Son present Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of those He predestinated. Adam was never intended to forever frolic naked in a garden paradise on earth. He was created to be the door of sin and death into the world.


Sounds all nice Calvinistic, but I think what you mean is that God decided on the conditions, not on the individuals.


Well, they were certainly the cause of the death of His prophets, and I think the blood of Stephen differs with you from the ground about the exoneration of Christ's betrayers and murderers.

1) You said the fall was not intended. I say it was.

2) Yes, we disagree, God's redemption plan had a target group (those who believe fully in Christ) rather than specific individuals.

3) No, I mean God decides on the individuals, just as Romans 9:16 says.

4) I addressed the death of Christ, stop deflecting.

 

[percho]

Did Adam, "fall,' or was the flesh and blood Adam by the command, "Thou shall not eat of it," sold ? ---

1Cor 15:56 and the sting of the death, the sin, and the power of the sin, the law;
Rom 7:14 for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin;

--- For the purpose of foreordained, before the foundation of the world, redemption?

That is being bought back by the seller?

 

[Charlie24]

The Son's Name, His Title, and His authority are merited by the work He did on the Cross.

Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. - Ephesians 1:15-23

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:5-11



In addition, Christ's Priesthood is tied to His Sonship. They are inseparable and eternal. His calling to Sonship is His calling to Priesthood.

That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father." Hebrews 5:5 NLT



His work of Redemption is the essence of His identity and the reason He bears the marks of the nails in His hands, and the mark of the spear in His side.

Creation was all about the Cross. The Rest that Christ prepared for us by His death and resurrection, was ready since the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, made the world.

For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, "In my anger I took an oath: 'They will never enter my place of rest,'" even though this rest has been ready since he made the world.

We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: "On the seventh day God rested from all his work." Hebrews 4:3-4.


For these reasons, it would not be an adding to Scripture, but an harmonizing of the Scriptures, to say, all things were created by him, and for him: [and him crucified.] Colossians 1:16


If not for the plan of Redemption, what role would the Son fill?

He would still be the Creator.

He would still be the heir of God the Father.

There is no beginning to the relationship between the Father and the Son.

It's not possible for the mortal mind to comprehend this.

Personally, and of course I can't prove it, I believe He has always been the Son and Heir of the Father.

And God has made us co-heirs with Christ of all that belongs to Him.

So whether man fell or not, the end is the same result. Just minus those who would not believe or fell short of the faith needed.

 

[JPPT1974]

Had Adam and Eve both not ate in that forbidden garden of good and evil , we may never have heard of Christ. Plus we would be in a lost and dying world.
But sin they did and they were sending Christ to save all of mankind past, present, and future.
God's original plan is sinning would be not part of this world at all but sadly that one sin in that garden changed everything and God knew in sending Christ at the right place and time.
Sin as we know now affects everybody.
Nobody will be perfect until we leave this earth or when Jesus is brought down by God the Father.

 

[Charlie24]

Had Adam and Eve both not ate in that forbidden garden of good and evil , we may never have heard of Christ. Plus we would be in a lost and dying world.
But sin they did and they were sending Christ to save all of mankind past, present, and future.
God's original plan is sinning would be not part of this world at all but sadly that one sin in that garden changed everything and God knew in sending Christ at the right place and time.
Sin as we know now affects everybody.
Nobody will be perfect until we leave this earth or when Jesus is brought down by God the Father.

If Adam and Eve had not ate of the forbidden fruit, there would be no sin in this world, The Garden of Eden would have extended with population and this world would be prefect, the way it will be in the end when God is finished with His work.

But because God didn't want robots running around serving Him but rather man serving Him of his own free will, He gave man the free will to choose. Man being a free agent with choice, chose to disobey God and we are suffering the effects of it until physical death.

 

[Charlie24]

If Adam and Eve had not ate of the forbidden fruit, there would be no sin in this world, The Garden of Eden would have extended with population and this world would be prefect, the way it will be in the end when God is finished with His work.

But because God didn't want robots running around serving Him but rather man serving Him of his own free will, He gave man the free will to choose. Man being a free agent with choice, chose to disobey God and we are suffering the effects of it until physical death.

The Calvinists aren't going the like this, but I can't help that.

They believe they have been elected with no choice in the matter, chosen by God for salvation before the foundation of the world.

That makes them a programed robot, with no free will, no choice in anything except what God programmed them for.

 

[Aaron]

There is no beginning to the relationship between the Father and the Son.

True, and there is no beginning or end of His priesthood.

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. - Hebrews 5:5-6 KJV

Saying 'Thou art my Son' is saying 'Thou art a priest.'

 

[Charlie24]

True, and there is no beginning or end of His priesthood.

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. - Hebrews 5:5-6 KJV

Saying 'Thou art my Son' is saying 'Thou art a priest.'

Wow, we agree on something, are you as surprised as I am?

 

[Aaron]

Wow, we agree on something, are you as surprised as I am?

Will wonders never cease? Let's spoil the moment, shall we?

What gift was this Priest to offer?

 

[Charlie24]

Will wonders never cease? Let's spoil the moment, shall we?

What gift was this Priest to offer?

You'll have to be more specific than that!

 

[Aaron]

You'll have to be more specific than that!

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. - Hebrews 8:3

What offering was our High Priest to make?

 

[Charlie24]

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. - Hebrews 8:3

What offering was our High Priest to make?

The gift He offered was Himself in sacrifice.

 

[Aaron]

That's right. The world was made for Him to fulfill that role.

 

[Aaron]

I might add to my other post to you.

I believe that this is the first intent of creation...

1st Intent: God the Father’s decree to create for God the Son and that God the Son be the purposeful end of creation, that which all creation culminates toward and to. (Col 1:16, Rom 11:36, Heb 2:10, Rev 22:13, 1:8, 1:11, 21:6)

It therefore follows that Adam was created to culminate 'toward' and 'to' the final intended end of this world. That end being God the Son. It also follows that if Adam was created in glory (small g) and it was God's intention of creation that 'all things' culminate toward Glory (big G). Then Adam was created, and was culminating toward his intended end even before the fall.

God didn't have one purpose before the fall and then another after the fall. Thus, Adam was fulfilling his purpose prior to the fall in that he was culminating toward his intended end. Therefore, God the Son is the ultimate end even before the fall.

Peace to you brother.

I'm not sure if we're saying exactly the same thing, but I think I agree.

 

[Marooncat79]

Well, since God decreed the fall there was never a “chance” that it would not happen

God (the Trinity) decreed the fall to ultimately glorify God through what Christ fulfilled here on Earth; and that man would not only see and serve God as Creator, but as Redeemer, Sustainer, and Friend

 

[Marooncat79]

From the 1689 2nd London Baptist Confession - See also Chapter 2​

Chapter 8 – Christ the Mediator​

1. God was pleased, in his eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, his only begotten Son, according to the covenant made between them, to be the mediator between God and humanity.1 God chose him to be prophet,2 priest,3 and king,4 and to be head and savior of the church,5 the heir of all things,6 and judge of the world.7 From all eternity, God gave to the Son a people to be his offspring. In time these people would be redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified by him.8
1Isaiah 42:1; 1 Peter 1:19, 20. 2Acts 3:22. 3Hebrews 5:5, 6. 4Psalms 2:6; Luke 1:33. 5Ephesians 1:22, 23. 6Hebrews 1:2. 7Acts 17:31. 8Isaiah 53:10; John 17:6; Romans 8:30.

2. The Son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, is truly and eternally God. He is the brightness of the Father’s glory, the same in substance and equal with him. He made the world and sustains and governs everything he has made. When the fullness of time came, he took upon himself human nature, with all the essential properties and common weaknesses of it9 but without sin.10 He was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary. The Holy Spirit came down upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadowed her. Thus, he was born of a woman from the tribe of Judah, a descendant of Abraham and David in fulfillment of the Scriptures.11 Two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without converting one into the other or mixing them together to produce a different or blended nature. This person is truly God and truly man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and humanity.12
9John 1:14; Galatians 4;4. 10Romans 8:3; Hebrews 2:14, 16, 17; Hebrews 4:15. 11Matthew 1:22, 23; Luke 1:27, 31, 35. 12Romans 9:5; 1 Timothy 2:5.

3. The Lord Jesus, in his human nature united in this way to the divine in the person of the Son, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit beyond measure.13 He had in himself all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.14 The Father was pleased to make all fullness dwell in him15 so that—being holy, harmless, undefiled,16 and full of grace and truth17—he was thoroughly qualified to carry out the office of mediator and guarantor.18 He did not take this office upon himself but was called to it by his Father,19 who put all power and judgment in his hand and commanded him to carry them out.20
13Psalms 45:7; Acts 10:38; John 3:34. 14Colossians 2:3. 15Colossians 1:19. 16Hebrews 7:26. 17John 1:14. 18Hebrews 7:22. 19Hebrews 5:5. 20John 5:22, 27; Matthew 28:18; Acts 2:36.

 

[Charlie24]

That's right. The world was made for Him to fulfill that role.

Through God's foreknowledge, yes.

But if God hadn't given man free will to choose His own way there never would have been sin, and no need for Him in that role.

 

[Aaron]

From the 1689 2nd London Baptist Confession - See also Chapter 2​

Chapter 8 – Christ the Mediator​

1. God was pleased, in his eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, his only begotten Son, according to the covenant made between them, to be the mediator between God and humanity.1 God chose him to be prophet,2 priest,3 and king,4 and to be head and savior of the church,5 the heir of all things,6 and judge of the world.7 From all eternity, God gave to the Son a people to be his offspring. In time these people would be redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified by him.8
1Isaiah 42:1; 1 Peter 1:19, 20. 2Acts 3:22. 3Hebrews 5:5, 6. 4Psalms 2:6; Luke 1:33. 5Ephesians 1:22, 23. 6Hebrews 1:2. 7Acts 17:31. 8Isaiah 53:10; John 17:6; Romans 8:30.

2. The Son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, is truly and eternally God. He is the brightness of the Father’s glory, the same in substance and equal with him. He made the world and sustains and governs everything he has made. When the fullness of time came, he took upon himself human nature, with all the essential properties and common weaknesses of it9 but without sin.10 He was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary. The Holy Spirit came down upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadowed her. Thus, he was born of a woman from the tribe of Judah, a descendant of Abraham and David in fulfillment of the Scriptures.11 Two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without converting one into the other or mixing them together to produce a different or blended nature. This person is truly God and truly man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and humanity.12
9John 1:14; Galatians 4;4. 10Romans 8:3; Hebrews 2:14, 16, 17; Hebrews 4:15. 11Matthew 1:22, 23; Luke 1:27, 31, 35. 12Romans 9:5; 1 Timothy 2:5.

3. The Lord Jesus, in his human nature united in this way to the divine in the person of the Son, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit beyond measure.13 He had in himself all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.14 The Father was pleased to make all fullness dwell in him15 so that—being holy, harmless, undefiled,16 and full of grace and truth17—he was thoroughly qualified to carry out the office of mediator and guarantor.18 He did not take this office upon himself but was called to it by his Father,19 who put all power and judgment in his hand and commanded him to carry them out.20
13Psalms 45:7; Acts 10:38; John 3:34. 14Colossians 2:3. 15Colossians 1:19. 16Hebrews 7:26. 17John 1:14. 18Hebrews 7:22. 19Hebrews 5:5. 20John 5:22, 27; Matthew 28:18; Acts 2:36.

This.