Who's in charge?

[rsr]

Dallas, I've read several thousand pages of Civil War-era history, and this is a new one on me. You have to do more than read between the lines; you have to read backward and upside down as well.

Johnson actually considered staging a coup, which is why Sherman moved Army headquarters to St. Louis to get away from the intrigues in Washington.

 

[Helen]

Back to the topic.... (so sorry

)

I understand that we should vote and that some Christians are called into political public service.

But I don't think the people per se are in charge at all. I am pretty firmly convinced now -- without any grand conspiracy theories in tow -- that those who have the money run the country. I think it is as simple as that. Whether it involves the expense of television campaign ads, bribing folks, blackmailing others, or whatever, I'm beginning to think this 'of the people, by the people, and for the people' ideal is now a fraud.

Gee, and normally I'm an optimist.

 

[post-it]

I agree Helen. The people don't run anything anymore, the people gave up those rights to the politicians and the politicians are controlled by big business because the politician controls the laws by which big business operates. Between Big business and Big Government, we are being drained of life, liberty, and happiness and all our cash and possessions.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Its worse than you think! Not only are the boys in the back room always cutting deals we know nothing of, the times when we are nervously aware of this going on are the times when it is not working for them as well as the other times!

But one other thing we know as well - God is in control of history and He arranges things to confound the wisest and smartest of schemers. So take heart.

 

[Rosa]

Who is in charge?
"We the people" are in charge. The problem is that "We the people" don't vote consistantly enough.
If we want change in our govenment then we have to be willing to govern through our right to vote.
If you make a mistake and vote for the wrong person you can change that decission in two to four years.
You must vote at the Local level and the State level and the National level. People that gripe about not having a "good" candidate to vote for need to think about who they voted for in the local election. If you vote for "good" people in the Local levels then they can rise to the State levels. Then you have good candidates for the National levels. If you cann't find a "good" person at the Local level, run for office. Be that "good" candidate for Christians to vote for.

If your representatives are not doing what they said that they would do, vote them out of office. If they lie, vote them out of office. If they steal, cheat or have bad morals, vote them out of office.

Be informed. Read. Have discussions with other Christians about the moral level of our country and if you are dissatisfied: Do something about it.
Change is very slow.
Be patient.
But Do something besides gripe.
Run for office.
Back someone that you would like to see in office.
But most importantly.... VOTE

 

[Pete]

I find it impossible to see words like "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" and not hear it said in a John Cleese-ese (Fawlty Towers) hyper-sarcastic tone.

Anyone half decent who gets into politics is either soon just as corrupt as the rest, or forced to follow party lines by the party machine and gets out.

These days when election comes around I just go and get my name crossed off and walk out without voting. I wouldn't even put in that much effort if it was not a $50 fine.

I love Capra's Mr Smith Goes To Washington, pity it will always be fiction.

Have I mentioned Aussies are generally a cynical bunch and don't think much of authority?

I know I know...

(Romans 13:1-3 NIV) Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. {2} Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. {3} For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. et al.

However in an alleged democracy the people are supposed to be authority right?

Pete

 

[Frogman]

alleged democracy

Key words.

It is comforting to know history is in the hands of God.

Dallas, I've read several thousand pages of Civil War-era history,

I had a Civil War and Reconstruction course at WKU in Bowling Green, KY. The Professor specialized in the Civil War; the above conspiracy was his favorite topic. Perhaps it was because of his standing on his head, (or something, while reading), none the less, he seemed to make a good case.

There were personal letters of Congress and Washington Bankers, (which I never actually saw), that he used to support his stand.

I will search for my notes, etc. and see what I have. Until then it does make you wonder how our govt. learned to covertly operate in Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam War. Machiavelli did write about power politics, and most politicians subscribe to his idea of the lion and the fox.

God Bless you all in your walk and service to Him.

Bro. Dallas

[ October 18, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[post-it]

After hearing this for years, I don't buy the line that we need to vote, as if that gives us the control. It doesn't, we the people have been fooled into thinking our wishes are being put forward by those we vote into office, but who really believes that anymore. Once any of them get into office, it becomes them against us. They line their pockets with money or contacts to use after they get out of office. In the mean time big money controls them and other polititians control anyone we elect. It is a big machine that is on autopilot, our vote is meaningless.

That said, I will still vote, it is all the power the allow us and every once in a long while we get a "good" person in office and things change... at least for a little while. See, living in denial isn't so bad after all.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Machiavelli did write about power politics, and most politicians subscribe to his idea of the lion and the fox.

Oh, how true your words ring.

It seems to be every politician's Bible.

 

[Bartimaeus]

Originally posted by Rosa:

But most importantly.... VOTE[/QB]

Rosa,
I just recently moved to Arkansas from what I call little Chicago. The area commonly known as Lake Co. Indiana. N. W. Indiana

Voting in Lake Co. Indiana is a joke. It is all controlled by the Democratic Party and has been since before your papa and mine was old enough to spell the word. Whenever the "vote" goes wrong the machines end up in lake Michigan. All the Republican's (not that I care about one single republicrat) were listed on last year's Democratic Ticket - HA!

This country will not change until we have a Dictator. II Thes. 1

I am glad He's coming back as a grave buster before he becomes a kingdom builder.

 

[Aaron]

Who's in charge?

The Law. Our nation was not designed to be ruled by the government or the people, but by law--that is natural law, or the law of God.

That's why the Declaration of Independence appealed to self-evident truths, nature and nature's God.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers." Every soul--even the rulers.

 

[Johnv]

That's why the Declaration of Independence appealed to self-evident truths, nature and nature's God.

The D of I isn't the document that governs the Law. That would be the Constitution.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, of course. It is however the apologetic of the Constitution. It says why, and the Constitution says how.

If the why is invalid, so is the how.

 

[Scott J]

Too bad OJ, Bill Clinton, and others have demonstrated that this IS NOT a nation of laws any more. Money and power trump justice... and the bad part is the peasants eat their cake rather than picking up the pitch forks.

 

[Frogman]

was voting ever legitimately controlled by the people?

didn't Jefferson believe the common people did not possess the common sense to vote?

did Jefferson forsee the days of Peter Jennings and all the other media giants who we watch because they espouse our own beliefs?

We are a society, a people who no longer have time to become involved in the issues enough to really know what is happening and why. We rely on the media to make our minds up for us in 30 minute around the world segments designed to boost ratings.

"Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein." Jer. 6.16

I know this scripture is appealed to alot in this kind of discussion, however, the truth shall stand when the world is on fire.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[PastorGreg]

Theoretically, we are a republic, a rule of law with the people represented by their elcted officials. We have never been a democracy. I think, Helen, that each believer has to act according to his/her own conscience in regard to political involvement. Historically, Christians have been very involved in our government, thus giving us the Judeo/Christian foundation that we had. I think we all realize that the ultimate hope of our nation is not in political involvement, but in repentance and returning to God.

[ October 18, 2002, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: PastorGreg ]

 

[Johnv]

Absolutely correct. We're not a democracy, we're a republic (also known as a representative democracy). This is an important difference froma pure democracy. Greece tried a pure democracy, where everyone voted on every issue. The result is that the average person didn't have the time or desire to vote on every issue. Look at us. We only have to vote every two years, and we still don't take the time to do it. So the system that was devised was a governmening bopdy wherein the power was divided equally in thirds (president, congress, and courts). We vote for for the persons who will represent us in the decision making process, and they do the rest while we get the privilege of complaining about them as we go about our lives.

was voting ever legitimately controlled by the people?
No, voting for representatives has been, though.

didn't Jefferson believe the common people did not possess the common sense to vote?
Yes, there was concern by him and others that persons would vote without taking the responsiblity to inform themselves over the issues at hand.

 

[Bartimaeus]

Originally posted by Johnv:
[QB]Absolutely correct. We're not a democracy, we're a republic (also known as a representative democracy).

Johnv, I believe our constitutional republic was stolen from the people by the shyster's who formed and passed the 17th Amendment. It was a republic as long as the people and the individual nation states had representation. Art IV, sec 4, states, "The United States shall guarntee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion;". The 17th changed this and the states each lost their vote. Each state legislature voted and sent two senators to the "ten square mile" and now this is done by the people in a popular vote. Now the mass majority has it's say in both venues and the states are no longer represented. The 17th was one of the checks and balance that made our form of Government so wonderful and righteous. The reason we have such a problem is that the mass majority have wicked, unGodly designs and the minority must wait on God's judgement.

Signed ---A waiting Bartimaeus

 

[Johnv]

Uhhh... the 17th amendment was passed in a constitutionally acceptible manner.

 

[jonmagee]

great news, yours, Jon