Who's Responsible?

[kyredneck]

....Does this say these Gentiles are regenerate? NOPE. So, your view is nothing but presumption on your part.

All it takes is an honest appraisal of the text, which you'll never do. Regeneration is precisely what Paul is referring to. It's the doers of the law that are justified. When non-Jews that had not the law did by nature the things of the law, it showed the work of the law written in their hearts. This made them the real Jews, inwardly, circumcised in heart, in the spirit not in the letter.

 

[Winman]

All it takes is an honest appraisal of the text, which you'll never do. Regeneration is precisely what Paul is referring to. It's the doers of the law that are justified. When non-Jews that had not the law did by nature the things of the law, it showed the work of the law written in their hearts. This made them the real Jews, inwardly, circumcised in heart, in the spirit not in the letter.

Again, you presume that your doctrine is correct without a word of scripture to support this view.

If you could show scripture that says only a regenerate man can obey the law, you might have an argument, but you cannot show such scripture. Your view is a man-made invention, it is the doctrine of men.

We know Cain was lost from the NT, but God implied he could have obeyed and given an acceptable sacrifice.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God said any man of the Jews could give a sacrifice of his own voluntary will, and that it would be accepted to make atonement for him.

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

So, not only is there ZERO scripture to support your view, there is MUCH scripture that actually refutes it.

Total Inability is false and this is easily shown from scripture.

Calvinists need to realize that correct doctrine comes from scripture, not their so-called "scholars".

 

[kyredneck]

Again, you presume that your doctrine is correct without a word of scripture to support this view.

If you could show scripture that says only a regenerate man can obey the law, you might have an argument, but you cannot show such scripture....

Can an unregenerate man do this?:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2

 

[steaver]

Many Samaritans believed Jesus was the promised Christ simply because the Samaritan woman told them Jesus had told her every thing she had ever done.

Jhn 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

This verse also tells us why these Samaritans believed. Was it because they were regenerated or quickened by the Spirit? NOPE, it was because the Samaritan woman told them Jesus told her all that she ever did.

Calvinism does not have a single verse to support people must be regenerated to believe. They can't show it.

Jhn 8:31-32 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

These Jews "believed on Jesus", but they were not regenerated. Only those who continue, and then ask for the Holy Spirit (Jhn4:10), will be regenerated by the will of God (Jhn1:13).

 

[kyredneck]

Abracadabra!

 

[Winman]

Can an unregenerate man do this?:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2

That describes Cornelius perfectly, he was devout, feared God, prayed always, and gave much alms to the people, but he was not saved, and he did not have the Holy Spirit. He was able to do good works that Peter called "righteousness".

So, according to scripture, YES.

 

[steaver]

It was either God or the devil:

4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

Are the unbelieving choosing not to believe, or are they not believing because the devil is not allowing them to believe (blinding them) ?

 

[Winman]

Abracadabra!

Well, whether you like it or not, Jesus directly told sinners they could ask and he would give them the Holy Spirit.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

You may not like it, but Jesus said all a person had to do was ask him, and he would give them the Holy Spirit.

It's not magic, it's the word of God.

Get used to it.

 

[Winman]

Are the unbelieving choosing not to believe, or are they not believing because the devil is not allowing them to believe (blinding them) ?

Why would the devil need to blind someone who cannot see?

Calvinism falls apart at every level when you question it. It is a house of cards.

 

[steaver]

Abracadabra!

Jhn 4:10 - "Jesus answered and said unto her,

If thou knewest (Convinced of a Truth - Belief)

the gift of God, (Eternal Life through God's Christ)

and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; (Thee Eternal Life Giver Himself -Jesus)

thou wouldest have asked of him, (Prayer)

and he would have given thee living water. (Holy Spirit Regeneration)"

 

[Winman]

Jhn 4:10 - "Jesus answered and said unto her,

If thou knewest (Convinced of a Truth - Belief)

the gift of God, (Eternal Life through God's Christ)

and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; (Thee Eternal Life Giver Himself -Jesus)

thou wouldest have asked of him, (Prayer)

and he would have given thee living water. (Holy Spirit Regeneration)"

It's almost as if these Calvinists don't want people to get saved. Jesus says all you have to do is ask, the Calvinists spend all their time trying to convince people they don't have the ability to do that.

 

[kyredneck]

That describes Cornelius perfectly, he was devout, feared God, prayed always, and gave much alms to the people, but he was not saved, and he did not have the Holy Spirit. He was able to do good works that Peter called "righteousness".

So, according to scripture, YES.

Incredible the violence you do to the word. A third grader could read the account given of Cornelius and know that he belonged to the Lord, he had a close relationship with the Lord; of course he was regenerate, LONG before Peter was ever sent to him. Acts 10 is the beginning of combining the two folds of sheep into one Christ foretold of in Jn 10.

'Saved' does NOT mean regenerated, is not synonymous with the birth from above. The baptism of the Spirit is NOT the birth of the Spirit.

 

[kyredneck]

Jhn 4:10 - "Jesus answered and said unto her,

If thou knewest (Convinced of a Truth - Belief)

the gift of God, (Eternal Life through God's Christ)

and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; (Thee Eternal Life Giver Himself -Jesus)

thou wouldest have asked of him, (Prayer)

and he would have given thee living water. (Holy Spirit Regeneration)"

Fortunate indeed she was, Christ willed to reveal Himself to her. He didn't have to say a word to her.

All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him. Mt 11:27

 

[Winman]

Incredible the violence you do to the word. A third grader could read the account given of Cornelius and know that he belonged to the Lord, he had a close relationship with the Lord; of course he was regenerate, LONG before Peter was ever sent to him. Acts 10 is the beginning of combining the two folds of sheep into one Christ foretold of in Jn 10.

'Saved' does NOT mean regenerated, is not synonymous with the birth from above. The baptism of the Spirit is NOT the birth of the Spirit.

How could Cornelius be regenerated when he did not have the Holy Spirit?

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

The only persons who receive the Holy Spirit are those who believe on Jesus Christ. Cornelius did not have the Spirit until he heard the gospel from Peter, therefore he could not be regenerated.

To be regenerated literally means to be made "alive again", just as Jesus described the prodigal son when he repented and trusted his father to forgive him.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

You can't go around redefining words. Regenerate means to "make alive" (generate) "again" (re).

That is what the word regenerate means. It does not mean to teach, or illuminate, or enlighten, or to convict, or any other thing. It means to make someone alive again. Of course, this means they were alive once before which completely refutes Original Sin, but that is another argument for another day.

Regenerate is synonymous with being "born again". This happens when you believe and all your sins are forgiven. You WERE dead in trespasses and sins, but now you have been forgiven and been made alive again.

Cornelius was a good man who loved God and did many good works, but he was a lost sinner just like every other man. When he heard the gospel he believed on Jesus Christ and was washed clean, receiving the Holy Spirit. This is when he was regenerated, not before.

You can't go around changing the meanings of words. Absurd.

 

[kyredneck]

How could Cornelius be regenerated when he did not have the Holy Spirit?

None of that you've posted is the birth of the Spirit. None of those have anything to do with the Jerusalem above being your mother.

...It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3:7,8

 

[Winman]

Fortunate indeed she was, Christ willed to reveal Himself to her. He didn't have to say a word to her.

All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him. Mt 11:27

No one has ever denied that no one could be saved unless God had revealed the gospel to us. I have said that dozens of times.

Man's inability is due to ignorance, not an inability to believe. All men are born with the God-given ability to reason and believe, but no man can believe what he does not know.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Yes, Jesus clearly said no man can come to him unless he were drawn by the Father, but how is that done? Did Jesus say they had to be regenerated to come to him? NO. He said they had to be taught, they had to hear and learn from the Father. Every man who truly listens to the word of God and learns from it will come to Jesus, this is what draws them, and this is what enables them to believe, KNOWLEDGE.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Did Paul say Timothy had to be regenerated to be saved? NOPE, he said the scriptures were able to make him "wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus".

It is the word of God that teaches us to trust in Jesus to be saved. The word of God teaches us, makes us wise, gives us the knowledge that we can know to place our trust in Jesus.

 

[Winman]

None of that you've posted is the birth of the Spirit. None of those have anything to do with the Jerusalem above being your mother.

...It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`Jn 3:7,8

Jesus didn't stop here with Nicodemus, if you continue to read, he explains exactly how to be born again, by believing on Jesus.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jesus gave Nicodemus an example from the OT that he would clearly and easily understand. When the people sinned against God, God sent fiery serpents among them. Every man bitten would die. When the people began to die they came to their senses (like the prodigal son) and begged for forgiveness. God told Moses to put a brass serpent on a pole which represents Jesus being made sin for us. Every man (no one was excluded) who was bitten, when he simply looked in faith to this brass serpent was healed which represents being made "alive again" regenerated, born again.

You guys love to pull verses 3-7 out of context, but that is not the entire conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus. If you read the whole conversation then Jesus explains how to be born again.

1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Here the scriptures show what being born again is, and how it happens. It is having all your sins washed away, having your soul purified. How does this happen? By obeying or believing the gospel just as Jesus said repeatedly in John chapter 3.

 

[kyredneck]

Can an unregenerate man do this?:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2

....according to scripture, YES.

....and you really, really, really think the scriptures teach that someone can go to heaven through their works?

 

[Winman]

....and you really, really, really think the scriptures teach that someone can go to heaven through their works?

That doesn't say someone can merit eternal life through works. It does say a person can seek eternal life.

We can only obtain eternal life by trusting Jesus. Part of trusting Jesus is obeying God's commands to do good works. Now, we cannot merit life, because you would have to be perfectly sinless to merit life, but if you say you trust God you should obey him.

So, a person that trusts God is going to patiently strive to do good works as God commands. But it is only trusting upon Jesus that can save us.

You read into scripture what it does not say.

 

[kyredneck]

That doesn't say someone can merit eternal life through works. It does say a person can seek eternal life.

We can only obtain eternal life by trusting Jesus......

Show me one passage pertaining to the final judgment where faith is even mentioned. We will all be judged by our works. You're the one reading too much into this.